What Pit players still do wrong after 4 years....

[Coffee™]

Actually took the time out to watch some recent Pit videos just to see how everyone plays these days and ugh.....can't say it was the most enjoyable thing to watch. Now, I'm not speaking to anyone in particular, this is a pretty generalized statement, but I think it's amazing the length of time some of you guys have been playing and yet still make the simple mistakes I've seen Pit players making from since the times before most of you even got into this game.

I'm not only talking character related mistakes. even generic gameplay ****.

I made this thread to help you guys realize the mistakes you may be making in you Pit gameplay. Basically I'm just going to talk about **** I see every Pit player doing that sucks and causes them to get pounded on by your opponents and you guys can add your 2c...even talk about stuff you realize as well.

I guess you could call this Pit gameplay tips or something like that. Anyway I'll kick things off and no I don't really care how harsh what I say might seem...

 

[Coffee™]

Ok one thing that really sticks out to me is rolls.....Like FFS why do Pit players still roll everywhere and try to roll behind your opponent every damn time they get close? I mean I know Pit's roll is good but do you feel so safe pressing L or R every second that it just becomes second nature?

99% of the players here need to go watch one of their own gameplay videos and count how many times they rolled as well as how many times they were punished for it. You guys might just cringe at the number -_-

Stop doing dat ****.....

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

dawg, tell me about it. my rolls are horrible sometimes. ill even ask myself why i chose to roll outloud sometimes. it's bad lol.

... i just realized i have no recent vids up. if i upload some will you watch 1 or 2 and tell me the harsh?

 

[Coffee™]

Lol I have no problem delivering "the harsh" to anyone. Just don't get butthurt about what I say and it's all good. lol. Sooooo, yeah sure. If anything post the video here or embed it if that's possible. And I'll just go over it in this thread.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Thank you R@vyn, I need it. I have thought about all of that too recently. I'm still a bad player, and I want to get good before WABA. It seemed like the late 08-09 period was when Pit was at his best gameplay wise. Then all the good Pits quit, and we were left w/ the ok ones(excluding Japanese Pits). And I started to main Pit in 10' so most of the good info was already discussed/no one wanted to talk about Pit much anymore. I continue to look at the old threads for more info especially the matchup discussions/tactics not fully utilized.

Hopefully, I can get my videos vs Player-1 from Bulldog Brawl uploaded and you can go all out on the critique.

 

[Coffee™]

Yea I don't mind looking at them.

But srsly......why ya'll roll so much..its painful to watch -_-

 

[CYVE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVA8SSn7BnY

My most recent set. Any tips R@vyn? :-)

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Rolling isn't the problem, it's when you roll. Forward roll is nearly as powerful as mk and lucario's roll. But if you roll in a scenario where it's very predictable then it's bad.

For Example: You are at the edge of the stage and your opponent is pressuring you. One would obviously opt to remain on stage rather than get knocked offstage, but the problem is the opponent is between you and the middle of the stage. Rolling grants a period of invincibility so rolling seems like the most viable option in that scenario. The thing is both players know this and the player applying pressure will be ready for the roll and punish you whenever you decide to do it. This is a bad way to roll.

A good way to roll: You are using a dash approach towards your opponent. Their thinking, he will either hit me, grab me, shield, or jump. Most don't think you will run up and spotdodge, so I rule this option out for now, but it will happen on a occasion and is a good mix up. But all of these options can be covered by your opponent shielding your attack or just grabbing you when you approach so they will insist on doing just that. Now if your opponent goes for an option such as this Pit can forward roll, assuming the spacing is on point, right behind the opponent.

Depending on your opponent's reaction time and their oos options, they could nair, up-b, or usmash oos or dsmash if their moves are fast enough. If they do not react in time the instictive option for THEM is to hold up shield as they are preparing for you to attack them. This is an advantageous position, being behind your opponent while they shield. Their best option is to escape such as rolling away but most don't think this and just stand still and wait. This is an opportunity to just grab their shield and tada a forward roll cross-up nets your a close range victory. But some will also spot dodge in this situation in which you should be patient and wait for the spotdodge first then grab. If you hold up your shield for too long and you succomb to the same pressure they are in, a smart opponent will drop shield and buffer a turnaround grab. This takes at least 12 frames as to our 5 frame grab so reaction time is key in this scenario. But tl;dr approaching will a forward roll cross-up is NOT a noob tactic, it is NOT something wrong if used properly and sparingly. This is what I try to implement in my gameplay.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

this is r@vyn's advice thread dude.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Yet he failed to elaborate on why rolling is bad. He just said "stop doing that ****" which doesn't help people learn usually.

 

[Vinylic.]

For me, When he means "stop doing that ****", he meant "stop rolling so much / depending on it", not just "stop rolling". And I agree. You don't have to evaluate why it's bad when you'll end up being punished DIRECTLY for rolling. It's still good that you roll at the right time, but it's not good to do it so much.

Instead of Rolling behind, you should find another option. As in counter-attacking your opponent in some way, or just jumping out of potential danger and then making an action that you could lead you to punishing your opponent. But hey, Don't take my word; I wanna see what the OP has to say.

 

[Coffee™]

Rolling isn't the problem, it's when you roll. Forward roll is nearly as powerful as mk and lucario's roll. But if you roll in a scenario where it's very predictable then it's bad.

For Example: You are at the edge of the stage and your opponent is pressuring you. One would obviously opt to remain on stage rather than get knocked offstage, but the problem is the opponent is between you and the middle of the stage. Rolling grants a period of invincibility so rolling seems like the most viable option in that scenario. The thing is both players know this and the player applying pressure will be ready for the roll and punish you whenever you decide to do it. This is a bad way to roll.

A good way to roll: You are using a dash approach towards your opponent. Their thinking, he will either hit me, grab me, shield, or jump. Most don't think you will run up and spotdodge, so I rule this option out for now, but it will happen on a occasion and is a good mix up. But all of these options can be covered by your opponent shielding your attack or just grabbing you when you approach so they will insist on doing just that. Now if your opponent goes for an option such as this Pit can forward roll, assuming the spacing is on point, right behind the opponent. Depending on your opponent's reaction time and their oos options, they could nair, up-b, or usmash oos or dsmash if their moves are fast enough. If they do not react in time the instictive option for THEM is to hold up shield as they are preparing for you to attack them. This is an advantageous position, being behind your opponent while they shield. Their best option is to escape such as rolling away but most don't think this and just stand still and wait. This is an opportunity to just grab their shield and tada a forward roll cross-up nets your a close range victory. But some will also spot dodge in this situation in which you should be patient and wait for the spotdodge first then grab. If you hold up your shield for too long and you succomb to the same pressure they are in, a smart opponent will drop shield and buffer a turnaround grab. This takes at least 12 frames as to our 5 frame grab so reaction time is key in this scenario. But tl;dr approaching will a forward roll cross-up is NOT a noob tactic, it is NOT something wrong if used properly and sparingly. This is what I try to implement in my gameplay.

Luckay you really need to use paragraphs more man...that **** is hard to read.

I get you though but, my intention in this thread was to bring attention to the many things Pit players do wrong, not necessarily elaborate on how to fix them. There is no one "fix" for players. We as players all differ as do our habits and issues. We may have some of these habits and issues in common but how we go about fixing them will almost always be different. I find it easier in this game to simply identify a problem and let the individual determine how they're going to deal with it.

I'm only here to call it as I see it and bring it to your guys attention. If I am asked specific questions I will answer them but I'm not going to simply make tl:dr posts abut how to possibly fix general issues.

this is r@vyn's advice thread dude.

It's all good man. Anyone can post whatever they feel will help here. If I feel the information they post is either wrong or unnecessary I will personally address it in the thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVA8SSn7BnY

My most recent set. Any tips R@vyn? :-)

I'm still at work atm. When I get home I'll review it in detail and post a review for you.

For me, When he means "stop doing that ****", he meant "stop rolling so much / depending on it", not just "stop rolling". And I agree. You don't have to evaluate why it's bad when you'll end up being punished DIRECTLY for rolling. It's still good that you roll at the right time, but it's not good to do it so much.

Instead of Rolling behind, you should find another option. As in counter-attacking your opponent in some way, or just jumping out of potential danger and then making an action that you could lead you to punishing your opponent. But hey, Don't take my word; I wanna see what the OP has to say.

I love you just for understanding then posting this so I didn't have to......

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

ravyn what are some good ways to bait and punish characters like snake and marth? that's one of my biggest problems is punishing these 2

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

I split up the second paragraph so it's easier to read. I tend to write in depth about stuff. I think it's good to point out flaws, but even better to tell people in detail what better options are.

 

[CYVE]

aight meyn

 

[Vinylic.]

I love you just for understanding then posting this so I didn't have to......

I tend to try me best in this community, lol.

Would like to play ya soon.

 

[pitskeyblade]

What Pit mains still do wrong after 4 years...















main Pit.

 

[Kuro~]

Lol i missed this thread somehow.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Tara with that troll/truth post

 

[Coffee™]

ravyn what are some good ways to bait and punish characters like snake and marth? that's one of my biggest problems is punishing these 2

Way too many to talk about here or in one post. This thread is more of a "general" problem kinda thing. An answer to this question would be better suited to a matchup thread.

I tend to try me best in this community, lol.

Would like to play ya soon.

Sounds good lol. And sure. I'm actually gonna be in orlando from the 9th to the 10th of next month for EDC. Is there anything going on around then?

What Pit mains still do wrong after 4 years...

main Pit.

Lol, long time no see/hear. But yeah....you got a point with this post...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVA8SSn7BnY

My most recent set. Any tips R@vyn? :-)

Sorry I took so long to get to this. Just been super busy. I'm just gonna outline the major issues I see as going through the matches in detail would take too long. I've watched a few of your other more recent games in addition to this one too so I'm not basing this response off just this set.

Anyways.

1: You recover from the edge the same way generally every time, with not much mixup. It's either jump with an attack or airdoge on to the stage. Constantly doing this gets you punished a lot. You need to work more mixing that up so can recover on to the stage properly. It's like it's some kind of pattern with you. You need to watch your opponents more when you're there too. In some games you can clearly see where they get used to your ledge patterns and punish you more.

2: You attack constantly, especially from the air. When you do this your approaches becomes really telegraphed and Pit's moves are easy to punish on landing. Mix it up a bit more with tilts and jabs as you hardly do either.

3: You don't capitalize on your opponents air dodges enough. Pit forces people to **** up in the air easily. A lot of your opponents landings were really telegraphed but again because of how you attack from the air so much you can't punish this as much as you should.

4: Stop randomly throwing out smashes at high percents. Leon punished you a lot for that in your set.

5: Stop rolling so much..

 

[Krystedez]

If you're playing Pit still competetively...

1.) Pretend your Meta Knight
2.) Punish landings like Meta Knight users
3.) Realize Pit is not Meta Knight
4.) Switch to Meta Knight whenever he is not banned
5.) Whether he is or not, you do well with this mindset.
6.) ???
7.) PROFIT!

Hiiiii Pits ~ <3

(In reality, if you DO employ the same mindset Meta Knight players have in punishing their opponents -- which is staying in tune to their landings and keep from landing or getting back on stage -- then it's actually really nice)

I don't know how many times I've told people to quit ****ing chasing people in the air and just hold your ground and keep punishing their landings.

 

[Vinylic.]

Sounds good lol. And sure. I'm actually gonna be in orlando from the 9th to the 10th of next month for EDC. Is there anything going on around then?

In November?

Everyone's getting for WABA at that month. But I'm pretty sure something bound to happen in December.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Krystedez so silly.

One thing everyone should know already is Pit mains need another character to fall back on when things get rough. Train up your second/third character to be as strong as or nearly as strong as Pit so you don't have to play out an exhausting/irritating/horribad matchup that you will have a tough time against. Pretty much any Pit with little to a lot of success have a second character.

Earth -
Cyve -
Koolaid -
Kiraflax -
Krystedez -
Luckay -
admiral pit -

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

maharba

 

[pitskeyblade]

Someone play me and tell me what I do wrong.

 

[Krystedez]

Krystedez so silly.

One thing everyone should know already is Pit mains need another character to fall back on when things get rough. Train up your second/third character to be as strong as or nearly as strong as Pit so you don't have to play out an exhausting/irritating/horribad matchup that you will have a tough time against. Pretty much any Pit with little to a lot of success have a second character.

Earth -
Cyve -
Koolaid -
Kiraflax -
Krystedez -
Luckay -
admiral pit -

So so right man, Pit is just not a solo tier character. He's definitely got some strengths about him that make him WORTH picking him up

Spoiler

if you don't pick up Meta Knight

. But beyond that, he really needs that extra backing.

I know that Gadiel questioned me on whether Pit is soloable, or should he just stick with ICs as a character. I can no longer hide my confidence in the answer that yes, a secondary or even main aside from Pit is neccessary to have a better chance at leaving a tournament, MK banned or not, with a win, at least if there are remotely any good players in the tournament.

Now, that's not to say that you should ignore Pit. If you do well with him, use him, don't stick to your main or secondary. I learned this the hardway with Wario at Retribution; lost to MJG's toon Link who I've never actually fought with wario before and lost (took a game thats it), where as I at least beat him 2-0 in our first bout together when I used Pit (granted he beat me right back at the next tourney 0-2 with me using Pit). Still, I could have thrown a loop and just used BOTH characters in that last set we did.

Then we have DeLux who mains ICs, and it's definitely more nervewracking to camp the ledge as Pit then it is to jump around with wario, but still, it's SAFER. Either way Lux is still a well rounded player and I lost because of his devotion to his character whereas mine is still fluctuating, mostly due to me not playing very often at all.

 

[Kuro~]

Pit CAN be solo. But as i've said a million times the mental fortitude it takes to do that is often too great. Secondaries make ur tourney life less stressful and gives u an out when u hit a wall u don't know how to handle(player knows u, u don't know the matchup, they know one matchup too well, etc. etc.)

Earth hasn't busted out sheik in aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaages.


At this stage in the game ur just putting urself at a disadvantage if u don't have somebody ur just as strong with unless u main mk.

 

[Krystedez]

^ yea its possible just in this current meta regardless of metaknight bans Pit can be squished or challenged by his hard or MANY even matchups, like TL or Rob.

If you're pro above all else though thats all that counts regardless of character choice, unless that character you choose is inhibited by so many flaws that it hinders your ability to dish out equal enough punishment.

 

[Kuro~]

He pretty much has a ever so slightly harder case of "marth syndrome"

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

no. you are wrong. pit needs at least one secondary. when was the last time you saw solo pit top 5 at a tourney in a region that matters that didn't include 2008 masashi (it was 09 when he started going MK against certain top level MUs if i recall correct)? oh that's right, never. not even koolaid's recent tourney win was solo pit, he went snake and MK. don't act optimistic and tell people wrong info. whether you believe it or not, pit does NEED at least one back up character. a lot of yall, especially you kuro, way over rate this character. you are also the same people who say wario and marth are -1s, and like oli and diddy and TL as even. you neglect blatant facts about this character's ability and MUs and replace it all with the most ignorant optimism ever. he is a decent character with decent options and several MUs that he loses, in ways i don't think some of you even understand.

 

[DeLux]

I was under the impression Dabuz and Vinnie both went all Pit in NY at a tourney as part of the new wave Pit rush after Uprise came out. And I think they came in top 2 at it

They can name search and correct me if I'm wrong though


What characters have won at the highest levels? Metaknight, Diddy, Olimar, ICs, Snake, Falco, Marth

If you outline that as the profile, the characters that can Solo win at regional to national levels:

- are played in the hands of an elite player (typically considered an Mk slayer specificially)
- are a character that doesn't have a common hard counter (the only red flags in that list that stands out ot me are Falco being hard countered by ICs and Pika, but those characters that matter are EXTREMELY rare; the other being Snake and Olimar, and over time we've seen the national winner of that character swap out Snake for MK in that MU anyways meaning Snake doesn't really do it anymore )
- are a character with favorable top tier matchups

Testing with Pit:
- For the sake of the argument, let's say one became an elite player in terms of ability to win as an asset that transcended character choice or at least operated as an independent variable.
- Does Pit have a hard counter? I would think MK would be our worst matchup. Normally I go ICs against MK and I think that MU is bad (between slight disadv to soft counter), so from my frame of reference, I feel it's worse than ICs which is pretty bad on being countered scale.
- Pit does not have a favorable top tier matchup spread, so it's statistically unlikely that a Pit player could win repeatedly over many bracket sets, especially later in bracket.

However, does this mean that the Pit player needs a secondary? Not in particular because outside of MK there doesn't feel like there are any horrid matchups that need "covering". It just seems that a Pit player is resigning themselves to mediocrity (like one outside the money) based on ceiling, but the floor for the character solo is rather high in terms of not worrying about running into that "unfortunate bracket". True to his nature, he's lower risk but lower reward.

Don't get me wrong, I love the character and play him still despite him being in my opinion mediocre. However, the characters that win are the ones that offer equal risk but higher reward on blind pick

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

yes, they would each go like game one pit. and then switch when they got bodied. vinnie won a few clutch games with pit against barely notable players. but when top 16 bracket came around, his pit got bodied. meanwhile dabuz's pit literally did nothing and he went olimar. i watched the streams for both tournies u are referring to. they were very overhyped for literally no reason

 

[Kuro~]

Pit/Wario IS -1.

That is all.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Earth went all Pit (unless you count that match where he got bodied when he tried sheik one game against M2K. Then used Pit to beat him again in losers bracket.) in August.. and got 4th iirc.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I think Kuro is right about Pit suffers slight Marth syndrome. I still feel like he can compete, and Mikeneko(the Japanese Marth) just won a tourney taking out Otori twice among other high level Japanese players. It's possible for Pit to win, it's just really hard to, and his matchups are mainly even to slight disadvantaged. I still feel like Pit has it in him to win nationals, it's just that noone has applied every technique and has the smarts as a top player(besides the Japanese Pits) here in America. I've seen promise in many Pits throughout the years such as ADN, ~ED, Rogue Pit, Sagemoon, LMNZ, Danny. I believe it's possible, but the Pit player needs a strong mindset and needs to know that Pit is fragile, and needs to play very Lame to win. I don't think anyone here has reached that point yet.

I do believe Earth can place top 8 @ Apex though, I'm calling it now.

 

[Kuro~]

as long as he doesn't get vinnie

 

[Dabuz]

yes, they would each go like game one pit. and then switch when they got bodied. vinnie won a few clutch games with pit against barely notable players. but when top 16 bracket came around, his pit got bodied. meanwhile dabuz's pit literally did nothing and he went olimar. i watched the streams for both tournies u are referring to. they were very overhyped for literally no reason

went pit against John #s, won 2/3 games in a 3/5, switched to Oli after winning with pit because Oli was requested.
Went full pit on cheese's ICs, won.
Went Pit vs. Ninjalink, won.

 

[Vinylic.]

The fact that it's even showing the sig of what I said on dabuz's post is lol-worthy, yet true.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

john numbers and cheese both suck severely at this game

and what character did ninja link use? he uses like every char

 

[Krystedez]

I beat Cheese with both Wario and Pit (seperate games, 2-0 with wario 2-1 with pit)

He believes my Pit is way better than my Wario. Idk y. lol.