What people aren't mentioning about the Lucina vs Marth Discussion

[Tux Park]

Maybe it has been mentioned before, but I don't see it be mentioned in alot of posts about whether Lucina is strictly useable when Marth exists.

I think people are not talking about the biggest factor in the lucina vs marth argument and it's one of the most important too. Lucina has the same shield stun and knockback as marths TIPPER across her entire sword. This makes it so that as long as lucina hits her opponents shield, it is way harder to punish her no matter how she spaces compared to a marth misspacing. This is so valuable since marcina deals with shields ALOT.

Lucinas not any worse than marth, and definitely does not deserve to be placed several tiers lower than him. In realistic play lucina may actually be better. Marth just has higher highs but lower lows.

 

[FamilyTeam]

People mention this fact whenever somebody implies Marth is safer on Shield than Lucina is, which is completely false.
In reality: if you hit somebody's shield as Lucina and you get punished, you would not have been any safer with Marth, and if you hit somebody's shield with Marth and get punished, you also wouldn't have been any safer with Lucina. Their safety on shield is basically the same.
The problem is when people trying to downplay Lucina try to argue that she's less safe when she isn't.

 

[Tux Park]

Since lucina has more shield stun throughout her entire sword, even if marth gets punished, it wouldnt necessarily mean lucina would get punished as well, no?

 

[DMan64]

The easiest way I can put my opinion, both are equally safe for their own reasons. While Lucina does have equal shield stun to Marth's tipper, it doesn't make her safer necessarily. Sure, Lucina can be a bit more lenient than Marth, but Marth's reward for spacing is better.

Realistically, Marth and Lucina are more and less safe than each other for different reasons. Marth because nobody wants to get hit by tipper be KO early, and Lucina because she simply hits hard no matter what and generally has an easier time building up damage.

The real thing that people should look at are their follow-ups and what they do better than each other. Marth's follow-ups are usually centered around getting as early of a KO as possible, with Lucina's about racking up damage and putting the opponent in a bad position. Lucina, in my opinion has a better off-stage game since she doesn't need a tipper to KO, meaning she doesn't need to worry about spacing much. Marth is better on stage simply because of the pressure tipper gives off. With that said, both characters suffer the same amount in terms of bad spacing, and even if there is a difference Lucina would only be very slightly safer than Marth. What people should be comparing are their individual strengths and what they do better than each other, not if one is safer than the other in terms of spacing.

As for Lucina being better, only time will tell there. As of recently she's been rising up, and she likely will continue to rise, what will ultimately decide that is what people consider more important in the long run, potential early KO's vs consistent, reliable damage.

In my opinion, both are around the same spot, but Marth may have the edge because tipper is extremely deadly and it helps in some of the match ups against other top tiers, like Sheik or Mewtwo.

 

[Nah]

Since lucina has more shield stun throughout her entire sword, even if marth gets punished, it wouldnt necessarily mean lucina would get punished as well, no?

The difference in frame advantage on shield is literally only a couple of frames different at most regardless of whether or not Marth hits a sweetspot/sourpsot, so no, in just about about every situation where one would get punished, the other would as well.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...g0KWgl4IOjXQ/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=1636352940

 

[Jaypen7]

I calculated the shield stun on some of their important aerials like FAir and NAir, and Marth's tipper only adds an extra frame or two. So yes, they are pretty much just as safe when max-spaced. And as for what Dman64 said, yes people do need to take into account their followups. But I do also want to add that I think Lucina relies on her BAIr a lot more than Marth because of how versatile a tool her BAir is. Think about it: you win stage control, you can start a meaty combo, you most likely will end a stock at higher percents, and its relatively safe to throw out. If you ask me, her BAir is pretty crazy

 

[Floor]

I've stopped participating in these discussions; Smashboards had no clue what they were talking about before PersistentBlade. Now they've gotten better, but there's still more work to be done and the "Differences Between Marth and Lucina Before you ask" page isn't updated / has small inaccuracies / false narratives. What I don't see people talking about, including that useless "Differences" page is that Lucina can in fact hit certain characters on BF platforms with fsmash (at least Robin and Toon Link) and Marth can't hit some (at least Rosa). Also they don't mention that Lucina can hit characters like Kirby and Bayo while they crouch due to get sword having the same range (as evidence suggests) but shifted lower.