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What matchups are worth switching to sheik?
- Thread starter oloap
- Start date
Luis Alonso
Smash Journeyman
Switch from Sheik to Zelda for Ice Climbers. Sheik has a bad matchup vs. them, but Zelda has one of the hardest for Ice Climbers.
EDIT: At the same time, switch to Sheik again for SoPo, because Sheik is more reliable for killing than Zelda, especially if that SoPo relies on Wavedash mindgames to kick ass and take names.
EDIT: At the same time, switch to Sheik again for SoPo, because Sheik is more reliable for killing than Zelda, especially if that SoPo relies on Wavedash mindgames to kick ass and take names.
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Magus420
Smash Master
SoPo can also d-throw Sheik 0-70 though.
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ECHOnce
Smash Lord
This won't be very constructive. Spent all day painting my back deck so I'll just be pouring my opinions down lol.
I used to dual main Zelda/Sheik, but my Sheik has been falling behind. As a Zelda main with a Sheik secondary (now), I would suggest to other Zeldas to stay unless they're just really pooping all over you, and you're not confident you can figure out a solution before you lose too many stocks/matches. But don't take it lightly. The Sheik MU is both more intuitive and more practiced for most people. If you're a Sheik main, this shouldn't deter you because you know that your options are better, so even if they know MUs better, you can still play solid and figure out how to abuse their MU weaknesses as the match progresses. A secondary shouldn't be expected to do better than your main, but they should at least feel comfortable enough for you to focus on adapting from a disadvantaged/losing position. Any less, and you're just giving yourself another setback by having to adjust to a <100% familiar character.
That said, if the match is a lost cause - your last stock to their 3-4 - experiment. You've warmed up your Zelda, and had 3 stocks to feel them out a bit. People have a tendency to loosen up when they have a large advantage. Use that opportunity to pop off with new wack Zelda stuff you hadn't risked trying yet (testing for game 2). If your Zelda is warmed up enough and you're still unsure about going Sheik, this is your chance to iron out any tech flubs before game 2. With nothing to lose, giving up and letting them have your way with you in the last stock is a huge waste. Might seem a bit off-topic, but I'm emphasizing this so much because it's probably the best/safest time to consider whether you wanna swap if using Sheik is a risk.
The most common exceptions - as Zelda's worst MUs (debatably) - that many of us prob avoid playing as Zelda completely.
My personal exceptions; I either start with another character, or transform to Sheik more leniently. G&W kills Zelda super early on most stages. Sheik and G&W destroy each other; Sheik is super free combo food, but G&W can be locked down like a spacie if you're careful af and treat him like a Jiggs the moment he has an even/positive frame advantage. Ness is an MU most Zeldas believe is advantageous. Against the average Ness (had one as a former practice partner), I'd agree. But if he knows what to abuse, I feel he has the potential to shut us down as badly as MK and the like.
These are MUs that Sheik does much better in, but are still doable for Zelda (I usually stay).
These guys often feel like they'd be easier with Sheik, but they're still disadvantageous and you'll get screwed up if you're not well-versed. Most of them will know how to play the Sheik MU way better than you do, either from experience or because they have tools to intuitively counter yours. I usually stay Zelda.
Other characters I'm either neutral, debating who does better, or don't know enough about. If that's the case, I'd stress staying Zelda like I advised at the top, at least while figuring out the MU.
I used to dual main Zelda/Sheik, but my Sheik has been falling behind. As a Zelda main with a Sheik secondary (now), I would suggest to other Zeldas to stay unless they're just really pooping all over you, and you're not confident you can figure out a solution before you lose too many stocks/matches. But don't take it lightly. The Sheik MU is both more intuitive and more practiced for most people. If you're a Sheik main, this shouldn't deter you because you know that your options are better, so even if they know MUs better, you can still play solid and figure out how to abuse their MU weaknesses as the match progresses. A secondary shouldn't be expected to do better than your main, but they should at least feel comfortable enough for you to focus on adapting from a disadvantaged/losing position. Any less, and you're just giving yourself another setback by having to adjust to a <100% familiar character.
That said, if the match is a lost cause - your last stock to their 3-4 - experiment. You've warmed up your Zelda, and had 3 stocks to feel them out a bit. People have a tendency to loosen up when they have a large advantage. Use that opportunity to pop off with new wack Zelda stuff you hadn't risked trying yet (testing for game 2). If your Zelda is warmed up enough and you're still unsure about going Sheik, this is your chance to iron out any tech flubs before game 2. With nothing to lose, giving up and letting them have your way with you in the last stock is a huge waste. Might seem a bit off-topic, but I'm emphasizing this so much because it's probably the best/safest time to consider whether you wanna swap if using Sheik is a risk.
The most common exceptions - as Zelda's worst MUs (debatably) - that many of us prob avoid playing as Zelda completely.
My personal exceptions; I either start with another character, or transform to Sheik more leniently. G&W kills Zelda super early on most stages. Sheik and G&W destroy each other; Sheik is super free combo food, but G&W can be locked down like a spacie if you're careful af and treat him like a Jiggs the moment he has an even/positive frame advantage. Ness is an MU most Zeldas believe is advantageous. Against the average Ness (had one as a former practice partner), I'd agree. But if he knows what to abuse, I feel he has the potential to shut us down as badly as MK and the like.
These are MUs that Sheik does much better in, but are still doable for Zelda (I usually stay).
These guys often feel like they'd be easier with Sheik, but they're still disadvantageous and you'll get screwed up if you're not well-versed. Most of them will know how to play the Sheik MU way better than you do, either from experience or because they have tools to intuitively counter yours. I usually stay Zelda.
Other characters I'm either neutral, debating who does better, or don't know enough about. If that's the case, I'd stress staying Zelda like I advised at the top, at least while figuring out the MU.
4tlas
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2014
- Messages
- 1,298
As a Sheilda main, I play both characters in almost every single stock, if not every single game, and definitely every single set (unless its doubles or I totally stomp my opponent). I am completely comfortable playing both characters in the areas I choose to use them in (so that would be everything except playing as Sheik when both players are low percent and somewhat as Zelda when both are high percent). My advice would be this:
There are no matchups where playing the wrong one is what causes you to lose, but switching to the better one may be enough to net you the win for a few reasons.
1) It screws up your opponent.
2) Zelda's approach isn't working and you're being forced to approach. Sheik has a chance here.
3) Sheik's ability to be combo'd and lack of recovery cause you to lose stocks too easily. Zelda has a chance here.
Other than that, I don't think switching for matchup is really worth it unless you truly main both characters. As for when its more worth it, I agree with ECHOnce's list with 2 exceptions: Sheik vs Falco I think is much better than Zelda vs Falco, and Zelda vs Snake is better than Sheik vs Snake.
There are no matchups where playing the wrong one is what causes you to lose, but switching to the better one may be enough to net you the win for a few reasons.
1) It screws up your opponent.
2) Zelda's approach isn't working and you're being forced to approach. Sheik has a chance here.
3) Sheik's ability to be combo'd and lack of recovery cause you to lose stocks too easily. Zelda has a chance here.
Other than that, I don't think switching for matchup is really worth it unless you truly main both characters. As for when its more worth it, I agree with ECHOnce's list with 2 exceptions: Sheik vs Falco I think is much better than Zelda vs Falco, and Zelda vs Snake is better than Sheik vs Snake.
I actually don't think zelda vs falco is bad. From experience it's neutral and I've played plenty of falcos.
Also I would say if your sheik is good enough use her against falcon because she has better tools against falcon than zelda does. As well as marth. Things you just don't feel comfortable approaching or playing as zelda definitely means you should switch.
Like I don't feel comfortable against luigi and kirby as zelda so I've been working on a tink secondary. Although tink is a better character in a lot of match ups, I do prefer just playing zelda because I'm more comfortable.
Also I would say if your sheik is good enough use her against falcon because she has better tools against falcon than zelda does. As well as marth. Things you just don't feel comfortable approaching or playing as zelda definitely means you should switch.
Like I don't feel comfortable against luigi and kirby as zelda so I've been working on a tink secondary. Although tink is a better character in a lot of match ups, I do prefer just playing zelda because I'm more comfortable.
4tlas
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2014
- Messages
- 1,298
I agree, but I think Sheik does well vs Falco. Crawling under lasers is huge.
Luis Alonso
Smash Journeyman
If a Sheik gets grabbed by SoPo, they are obviously playing the matchup wrong.
WhiteCrow
Smash Journeyman
I'm a firm believer that Zelda is capable of taking on every character in PM with nothing worse than 60/40. I think Echo and 4tlas make good points for shielda players, but it is my opinion that Zelda doesn't ever "need" to change to Shiek. Just my two rupees.
Mazdamaxsti
Smash Lord
Just a question, how is DDD a bad for Zelda? From what I recall, the DDD boards think this is one of his worst MUs because of dins fire.
Uh it should be 6:4 in our favor or arguably 65:35. Our one din's doesn't harass that much and shut DDD down like how 3 dins did. DDD's grab range should be able to grab us out of a LK on shield and edgeguarding zelda with DDD isn't that hard because her teleport has a lot of start up frames and you can go out there and fair her and she dies.
If DDD shields and keep out waddledees and doos then you should be fine in neutral since the waddles can instantly clank with dins. Zelda has a harder time edgeguarding DDD and although he will get hit with LKs easier he won't die as early to them.
One din's doesn't really lock DDD down so it shouldn't be unwinnable. But to me I think it's definitely going to be a long time of playing neutral and seeing who has the less safe approach. But that's my stance on it from playing my friend.
4tlas
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2014
- Messages
- 1,298
I think most DDDs play this matchup terribly. When they play the normal DDD style of jumping into the air and forcing you to jump at them they do terribly because Zelda's anti-air game is incredible. I'd imagine that if a DDD player stayed grounded and abused his disjoint it would be difficult for Zelda. Its probably close to even. However, Zelda has a huge advantage if the DDD player tries to play...DDD. The point is you'd think Sheik can get past the disjoint but she gets combo'd to all hell so actually you want to stay Zelda. I think he just kind of got lumped in with the other "you'd think Sheik would be better but noooooope" characters by accident.
ECHOnce
Smash Lord
Not by accident lol, that was the intention. Lots of Zelda mains avoid crazy disjoint, so I assumed D3 would be a common "maybe I should go Sheik" character. When I said "still disadvantageous," I was referring to the Sheik MU being bad, not Zelda's.
BlueLettuce
Smash Rookie
If you are equally comfortable playing Zelda or Sheik it is really based on how you feel about the MU yourself. Sheik may do better in some MU's but if you are more comfortable as Zelda there is no point in forcing it.