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What makes a champion?

Zodiac

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
3,557
Ken, Mew2king, Mango. All three of these guys have something in common, at one point or another they were the undisputed kings of melee. But what made them that way? I made this thread to discuss opinons on what you the community thinks makes our great players great, and what makes our champinons champions.

Is it skill? is it motivation? Hard work? or "I just have fun playing the game" what exactly do YOU think makes the best melee player in the world?
 

LLDL

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
7,128
I simply think it's that they reached a new plateau of skill before anyone else. Yeah, they all practiced for hours on end, but once they reach that certain level perfection, of fast paced thinking and execution, that's what separates them from the other high level players. There's no telling when you get there, it just happens.

I think its just a general love for the game, practice to perfection, and not having fear of any opponent. Natural talent also comes into play.
 

Veetaak

Smash Lord
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,120
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Dedication is probably key. Willing to accept a loss and instead of whining reflect upon what went wrong etc. Much like Dr PP after loosing to Armada in the WF. (I think it was the WF).
Having fun while playing is also important and playing as many people as you can will broaden your smashhorizon xD
 

Rollz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
114
Location
Roanoke, VA
Is it skill? is it motivation? Hard work? or "I just have fun playing the game"
All of the above, but I also think it depends on the lvl of skill people you play have. If your local community sucks you have to go out of your way to practice, and you can't go out of your way all the time. If the community in your area is good... you get more consistent n effective practicing.
 

TheZhuKeeper

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
2,908
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Whatever Dr. PP has.
I feel like Dr. PP has put more conscious thought / time into the game than any other "champion". I think everyone else has gotten ahead mostly by talent / playing rather than analysis (other than maybe m2k). Maybe we'll see some kind of rotation.

ken -> m2k -> mango -> pp

ken, mango = intuitive
m2k, pp = methodical

I say silentspectre will be the next smash champion.
 

Veetaak

Smash Lord
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,120
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
haha, Yeah it would be so awesome if SS won some major tourneys :D
m2k is 2 emotional, he ragequited vs PP at pound 5 with like 2 or 1 stock left. And it wasn't even the last match if I'm correct :p
 

Jimbo Slice

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 13, 2010
Messages
246
Location
Cornville, Midwest
collect all 8 badges

challenge elite 4

win

champ statuz


Perseverance is key. While all 3 (4) of those guys have a lot of raw talent, they still had to focus and hone that talent. A love for the game and community is pretty huge too. PP really enjoys playing and it shows.
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
4,917
Not losing, being a good role model, re-defining the whole metagame, pushing to new limits.

I wish I was a mod so I could lock these stupid ****ing threads
I wish I was a lock so I could mod your face. :awesome:
 

TheZhuKeeper

Smash Champion
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Messages
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haha, Yeah it would be so awesome if SS won some major tourneys :D
m2k is 2 emotional, he ragequited vs PP at pound 5 with like 2 or 1 stock left. And it wasn't even the last match if I'm correct :p
m2k actually did something similar at wintergamefest in socal. I was actually expecting what happened =/

Perseverance is key. While all 3 (4) of those guys have a lot of raw talent, they still had to focus and hone that talent. A love for the game and community is pretty huge too. PP really enjoys playing and it shows.
I feel like Melee is a lot more than just a game for him, it's like a struggle he has with himself.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
ken -> m2k -> mango -> pp

ken, mango = intuitive
m2k, pp = methodical
Here's how I like to break it down:

Ken: Innovative setups and mixups that people had trouble finding counters to (not saying he wasn't ridiculously talented, but these were some of the things that gave him a competitive edge).

Mew2King: Amazing understanding of what works/ability to plan things out to perfection/unrivaled technical prowess.

Mango: Spacing, best forecaster, unpredictable.

Just how I see it.
 

strawhats

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
4,273
Location
Bronx
Here's how I like to break it down:

Ken: Innovative setups and mixups that people had trouble finding counters to (not saying he wasn't ridiculously talented, but these were some of the things that gave him a competitive edge).

Mew2King: Amazing understanding of what works/ability to plan things out to perfection/unrivaled technical prowess.

Mango: Spacing, best forecaster, unpredictable.

Just how I see it.
You forgot how ridiculously adaptive mango is...it's like play him once(that's your only chance to win) and play him more than one time and your ****ed. He memorizes your play style and your screwed for life.

I feel PP and M2K have invested the most time in this game and have accomplished their goals through hard work and of course natural raw talent (m2k may be an exception as he has said he's not as naturally talented as mango, pc chris, kdj)
 

Dr Peepee

Light and Love
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Wow, people could write forever on this subject. It's one that applies more than to just smash, that's for sure.

If I could assign one quality to answer this question with, it would be drive. More than hard work, drive is like that pushing force that keeps you going and allowing your hard work to keep coming forth. There are plenty of people who can work hard at this game but just don't have the drive to overcome all of their obstacles, so the hard work is inconsistent and fizzles. Drive is not dedication either, as dedicated players could put more time into the game but not necessarily have that burning passion to win like driven players.

Drive is, as best as I can explain it, the true competitive spirit. You want to prove your worth to every single person out there and you won't stop until you're recognized as the best. Drive allows one to overcome their hardships and obstacles(like my and m2k's lack of natural talent for the game for example) as well as not take a loss sitting down. It's why Mango and I can make comebacks, because we cant settle for seeing someone outperform us. Drive pushes players to work on themselves longer and harder than anyone else would do. I personally used to think about my game and every single situation that I could be faced with all of the time. So long as I was upset with the way I played, I would spend my time solving these situations in order to improve.


That's the way to get there. To stay on top.....that's a different story. Everyone has access to your videos and people start learning how to fight your character better. Plus, you've proven you're the best, so what's left to prove? Well, this is an interesting predicament that I think got to Mango. Would've happened to Ken too but the relative skill level was higher back then. Chances are though, you can't sleep on a given tournament if you're just becoming the best, as everyone has access to your videos, knows your style the best, and probably has extensively trained against your character because they're all looking to take you down. There are always people you have to prepare for, and it wouldn't be until you had a very well-established reign that you could really feel comfortable in your position as #1(like Mango certainly has on his own plane). Once that happens, the nature of competition is kind of null and it makes sense why Mango wouldn't enjoy winning anymore, though some could argue ethical qualities that void him of a title such as "champion" then.

Basically I think it comes down to drive lol. I'm gonna go practice some Melee now because I got distracted and started thinking about that during that last paragraph and couldn't stop lol.
 

keeper

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Lake Oswego, OR
Someone should lock this thread now before it gets contaminated after that last post and delete this one.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
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Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
u have to enjoy the game. I'm glad to had my reign in each smash game. But I think if you don't enjoy what you are doing, or have the drive to get better, you won't get much better, imo. I didn't have confidence in any smash national that I won btw, so I guess I was never a champion.
 

Pi

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
6,038
Location
Lake Mary, Florida
Wow, people could write forever on this subject. It's one that applies more than to just smash, that's for sure.

If I could assign one quality to answer this question with, it would be drive. More than hard work, drive is like that pushing force that keeps you going and allowing your hard work to keep coming forth. There are plenty of people who can work hard at this game but just don't have the drive to overcome all of their obstacles, so the hard work is inconsistent and fizzles. Drive is not dedication either, as dedicated players could put more time into the game but not necessarily have that burning passion to win like driven players.

Drive is, as best as I can explain it, the true competitive spirit. You want to prove your worth to every single person out there and you won't stop until you're recognized as the best. Drive allows one to overcome their hardships and obstacles(like my and m2k's lack of natural talent for the game for example) as well as not take a loss sitting down. It's why Mango and I can make comebacks, because we cant settle for seeing someone outperform us. Drive pushes players to work on themselves longer and harder than anyone else would do. I personally used to think about my game and every single situation that I could be faced with all of the time. So long as I was upset with the way I played, I would spend my time solving these situations in order to improve.


That's the way to get there. To stay on top.....that's a different story. Everyone has access to your videos and people start learning how to fight your character better. Plus, you've proven you're the best, so what's left to prove? Well, this is an interesting predicament that I think got to Mango. Would've happened to Ken too but the relative skill level was higher back then. Chances are though, you can't sleep on a given tournament if you're just becoming the best, as everyone has access to your videos, knows your style the best, and probably has extensively trained against your character because they're all looking to take you down. There are always people you have to prepare for, and it wouldn't be until you had a very well-established reign that you could really feel comfortable in your position as #1(like Mango certainly has on his own plane). Once that happens, the nature of competition is kind of null and it makes sense why Mango wouldn't enjoy winning anymore, though some could argue ethical qualities that void him of a title such as "champion" then.

Basically I think it comes down to drive lol. I'm gonna go practice some Melee now because I got distracted and started thinking about that during that last paragraph and couldn't stop lol.
 

keeper

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Lake Oswego, OR
u have to enjoy the game. I'm glad to had my reign in each smash game. But I think if you don't enjoy what you are doing, or have the drive to get better, you won't get much better, imo. I didn't have confidence in any smash national that I won btw, so I guess I was never a champion.
You obviously had some sort of motivation, though. Even if it wasn't confidence, it was a drive or maybe that you just enjoyed the game enough to want to be good at it. I'm pretty sure it means you're something when other people see you play and wish they could do that, then get motivated to even hit a level half that high.
 

Iron Dragon

Smash Lord
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Aug 5, 2005
Messages
1,239
Location
Arizona
u have to enjoy the game. I'm glad to had my reign in each smash game. But I think if you don't enjoy what you are doing, or have the drive to get better, you won't get much better, imo. I didn't have confidence in any smash national that I won btw, so I guess I was never a champion.
No, it's just the reason you didn't retain being one.
 

Mizar

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
735
Location
Netherlands
I can't believe someone is forgetting this.
No restrictions in being able to go to smashfests and tournaments.
Some people aren't allowed to travel (parents) or have the money to do so.
You can have all the skill and willpower in the world, but you just don't have influence on everything that can hold you back.
 

Mokumo

Smash Ace
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
885
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
i dont think one becomes a champion just by winning tournaments and beating everyone. "champion" is a title that is bestowed onto someone by the community as a whole - i think it's about more than just winning.
 

Metal Reeper

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
2,285
Location
Abington PA
Here's how I like to break it down:

Ken: Innovative setups and mixups that people had trouble finding counters to (not saying he wasn't ridiculously talented, but these were some of the things that gave him a competitive edge).

Mew2King: Amazing understanding of what works/ability to plan things out to perfection/unrivaled technical prowess.

Mango: Spacing, best forecaster, unpredictable.

Just how I see it.
Sooooo agree with this post.

I also agree. All of these players were the only players ahead of the metagame at that point. Stepping it up for the next tier of metagame. All of them did this.
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
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Oct 20, 2005
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pikachu
I remember when PC beat ken @ MLG new york in 06 and Ken cam back with a vengeance @ Orlando (???, i think the next time they met was orlando, im sure someone can correct me here).


good times.
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
7,048
u have to enjoy the game. I'm glad to had my reign in each smash game. But I think if you don't enjoy what you are doing, or have the drive to get better, you won't get much better, imo. I didn't have confidence in any smash national that I won btw, so I guess I was never a champion.
fak u

ull always be a champion
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
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Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
Actually what happened with Ken and PC, is I was a Ken fanboy back then so after PC beat Ken at the first MLG with Falco then I told Ken on AIM (2 weeks before the next MLG, I believe which was MLG Dallas or Anaheim or something) to spam counter against PC since he throws out so many attacks so often. He used that exact strategy, thanked me on aim, then a year later he denied me helping him on the boards. I also taught PC the light shield trick and told Ken how to get around it (by using Marth's Nair because the 2nd hit hits them off the stage) which Ken used against Chillin at MLG Chicago or Orlando on FoD (it's in one of the videos you can watch, right side of the stage) and Ken denied me helping him a year later.

my personal opinion is that Ken was just good when everyone else sucked. He had a head start until people caught up
 

LLDL

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
7,128
^ I was just reading through those old threads, with those conversations between you two like a month or two ago lol.
 

Rubyiris

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Tucson, AZ.
for most people, motivation and confidence are probably huge deciding factors. especially if you're a falco main.

sucks for people like me because I'm very pessimistic.
 

Sinji

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To be champion, you have to know every aspect of the game.

Also have confidence.

You must also have a plan.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Wow, people could write forever on this subject.
Let me try it:

1. Motivation
2. Hard Work
3. Willingness to learn

Yeah, I think I'm done. Mix with a packet of "top tier" and stir for 18-24 months.
 

Rubyiris

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
Tucson, AZ.
Let me try it:

1. Motivation
2. Hard Work
3. Willingness to learn

Yeah, I think I'm done. Mix with a packet of "top tier" and stir for 18-24 months.
There is at least one more ingredient in this recipe, else I'd have been a top player by now.
 
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