What made you pick up Dr. Mario?

[TTTTTsd]

To a degree, yes. You have to be in the right place, at the right time, and the opponent has to **** up something fierce. Nonetheless though, when it works, it works. FLUDD is the reason why I'm scared to recover high against Mario.

See, this sounds like someone who doesn't know how to use FLUDD. It is most certainly not a bad move. When you find yourself against the ledge being pressured and you can just say, "Nope, **** off" with the press of a button, you'll see how "bad" it is.
Dr. Tornado, while a good move, is quite frankly filled with flaws. It's ending lag prevents it from being an effective recovery move unless you have a double jump, it's rather weak onstage, it's easily predicted, and doesn't have nearly as many applications as FLUDD. Between Doc's excellent down air and up smash, the only thing that would actually be missed is the recovery boost, but honestly, Doc's recovery is bad enough to where the difference would be minuscule, especially the fact that Doc would actually be able to edgeguard people safely. And let's not cut corners, Doc has the mobility of an old man, so being able to instantly force pressure off you would be amazing, and would only further aid Doc's amazing defensive game. Everything else you said just amounts to you not knowing how to use FLUDD, so I won't bother.

You seem to know nothing about Doc if you think Dr. Tornado doesn't allow his edgeguards to be stronger. FLUDD would make a very big difference on Dr. Mario, Tornado is his only recovery mixup and also his only way to stall lol. Mario would be a better character if he had the move, not a single question in my mind. FLUDD, in a vacuum, vs. Dr. Tornado in a vacuum, is a worse move.

Also Doc doesn't want to force people off him, him pushing characters back with FLUDD would **** him over so bad. Dr. Tornado is why Doc's recovery isn't trash. He already CAN edgeguard safely, Bair is fairly sufficient, Dair is a large multihit that sucks people in, and Doctor Tornado is first and foremost an edgeguarding move.

It sounds very much to me like you don't know the Dr. Mario meta at all, FLUDD would hinder this character greatly. I'd page 2manycooks or A2Z but maybe they'll come in here anyways. Giving Mario the Dr. Tornado would give him a ridiculously strong edgeguard move, another way to stall his already decent-ish recovery, did I mention a move that can actually kill offstage because Mario has none, at least none specialized for low edgeguards which FLUDD does not cover. FLUDD stops being a threat when you preserve double jumps and recover low.

 

[A2ZOMG]

^Real talk. Tornado is miles and a way a better move than FLUDD that doesn't require the opponent not knowing the matchup to get ridiculous results. Tornado is robust not just as a recovery mixup tool, but to mix up defensive options, AND EDGEGUARD LOW, something Mario is very weak at doing.

Nobody should get gimped by FLUDD except like Mac and Ness.

 

[MarioMeteor]

You seem to know nothing about Doc if you think Dr. Tornado doesn't allow his edgeguards to be stronger. FLUDD would make a very big difference on Dr. Mario, Tornado is his only recovery mixup and also his only way to stall lol. Mario would be a better character if he had the move, not a single question in my mind. FLUDD, in a vacuum, vs. Dr. Tornado in a vacuum, is a worse move.

Also Doc doesn't want to force people off him, him pushing characters back with FLUDD would **** him over so bad. Dr. Tornado is why Doc's recovery isn't trash. He already CAN edgeguard safely, Bair is fairly sufficient, Dair is a large multihit that sucks people in, and Doctor Tornado is first and foremost an edgeguarding move.

It sounds very much to me like you don't know the Dr. Mario meta at all, FLUDD would hinder this character greatly. I'd page 2manycooks or A2Z but maybe they'll come in here anyways. Giving Mario the Dr. Tornado would give him a ridiculously strong edgeguard move, another way to stall his already decent-ish recovery, did I mention a move that can actually kill offstage because Mario has none, at least none specialized for low edgeguards which FLUDD does not cover. FLUDD stops being a threat when you preserve double jumps and recover low.

"In my mind" being the keywords here.

And you'll call A2? What's he gonna do? And who the hell is 2manycooks?
Mario has no kill options on stage? Did you forget that he kinda sorta has one of the best up smashes in the game? The move that 99% of his kills actually come from?
You forget, Mario already has a Tornado, a watered-down version, but one nontheless. Mario would gain absolutely nothing other than a slightly better recovery with the Tornado, and in return he's lose a valuable gimping, disrupting, and defensive tool. It can also be used to bait air dodges and reactions as well. Did you forget all of this, as well?

 

[TTTTTsd]

"In my mind" being the keywords here.

And you'll call A2? What's he gonna do? And who the hell is 2manycooks?
Mario has no kill options on stage? Did you forget that he kinda sorta has one of the best up smashes in the game? The move that 99% of his kills actually come from?
You forget, Mario already has a Tornado, a watered-down version, but one nontheless. Mario would gain absolutely nothing other than a slightly better recovery with the Tornado, and in return he's lose a valuable gimping, disrupting, and defensive tool. It can also be used to bait air dodges and reactions as well. Did you forget all of this, as well?

Did you read my post or did you not see that I said "off-stage?"

Mario's kill options on stage are ****ing superb, where did I deny that? Did you even read what I said like, at all? You can like FLUDD all you want but can you please do me a favor and read what I said?

Dr. Tornado as a move is a large part of why Doc is even usable as a character, it's such a damn good move on him. Apply it to a character that doesn't even NEED it and how would he not get better? The facts are all there.

Seriously where did you read "on-stage" in my post?

Tell me how Dr. Tornado would not improve Mario's low edgeguarding. Tell me how it wouldn't let him keep B-Throw fresh in the RosaLuma MU because Dr. Tornado despite not salvaging the RosaLuma MU for Doc because of his mobility, is a damn good move for scattering Luma (imagine it on a character with really good mobility!)

The crux of my entire point is that Mario's mobility would accentuate this move and have more of an impact than FLUDD. I can't see how it wouldn't outside of the Customs metagame where Scalding FLUDD exists.

And lastly, I repeat, please tell me where I talked about Doctor Tornado improving his "on-stage killing ability"

Also if you bait an airdodge with FLUDD they're going to snap to the ledge before you even punish anything. It's purely a disruption tool but it's not metagame changing nor does it serve to aid nor falter Mario. It's not a terrible move, but it's just "there" until you play with Customs On. But if you're going to try and counter points that I never made (seriously on-stage?) then I don't think this is a discussion I can continue.

Also Doc's edgeguards are fine as is, FLUDD would make him worse. Regardless of how much you want to believe Doc's Down-B would improve Mario fundamentally or not, FLUDD is not a move you could put on Doc without ruining him.

I'm not upset, I'm just lost. Where did I mention Mario having bad on-stage anything?

 

[A2ZOMG]

"In my mind" being the keywords here.

And you'll call A2? What's he gonna do? And who the hell is 2manycooks?
Mario has no kill options on stage? Did you forget that he kinda sorta has one of the best up smashes in the game? The move that 99% of his kills actually come from?
You forget, Mario already has a Tornado, a watered-down version, but one nontheless. Mario would gain absolutely nothing other than a slightly better recovery with the Tornado, and in return he's lose a valuable gimping, disrupting, and defensive tool. It can also be used to bait air dodges and reactions as well. Did you forget all of this, as well?

2manycooks made it out of pools at EVO. Definitely one of the top current Doc players around.

I will repeat again, nobody except Mac and Ness should be gimped by FLUDD. The move is frame 20 minimum startup. That is easily airdodged on reaction, and Mario can't punish a low recovery given he has nothing really good for hitting below the stage, something Doc actually does have in both Tornado and D-air.

What are you going to bait with such a slow move that doesn't even do anything to shields? FLUDD is crap. Period. Doc Tornado in contrast is an extremely good move that many characters would kill to have, especially someone like Mario who has a predictable recovery and limited aerial/offstage KO options.

 

[UltimateXsniper]

Ok I guess this is far enough. I didn't want the thread to turn into fludd vs tornado. I want this thread to go back to it's roots and just talk about how we picked up doc like how it originally was.

 

[MarioMeteor]

2manycooks made it out of pools at EVO.

Really, now? I'll have to look him up.

FLUDD is crap. Period.

And down goes whatever credibility you had left.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

2manycooks was a match away from making it into top 8 at Alberta Beatdown. It would have been nice to see a Doc in top 8 but what can you do. Wish the guy got more exposure. I can find footage of his Little Mac and Captain Falcon easily.

Funny how one year ago, the consensus was that Mario's Down B was better than Doc's. Now things have changed and most people who know both Mario and Doc think the opposite.

 

[TTTTTsd]

To go into a tangent about why I play this character, well, I think he's a lot of fun, and I've always been a fan of the Dr. Persona (hence why even if he was just a costume it'd be the only one I'd use.)

I also really, REALLY love the Dr. Mario puzzle games.

 

[KenMeister]

I really enjoy Doc as a character, and he's still probably my favorite character in the game. Nado is really good for mind games and mixups, an UpB good for a variety of purposes (jab cancels, edgeguarding, OoS, airdodge punishes), is rewarded better for spacing, a cape unlike Mario's that can be used for movement, and who doesn't enjoy making PhD jokes against an opponent who doesn't know the MU? Lol

 

[Zethoro]

I like slower, stronger characters and I missed Melee nado so I initially picked up Doc as one of my mains for several months.
Of course, I then discovered his power is a pretty small increase over Mario's and is pretty irrelevant compared to everything Mario gets in exchange. If I'm feeling confident in my ability to read my opponents I'll still use Doc, but otherwise I use regular Mario now.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

I play him because he is a throwback to Melee, the game that made me interested in competitive Smash. He was my favorite character in that game too since he was a basic, yet versatile character.

I will make him and Mario my permanant mains in Smash 4. There are a lot of fun characters in this game, but Mario and Doc stand out the most.

 

[DarkK]

I think the preference comes down to the style you prefer. However, Mario Tornado sends the enemy upwards, only DocTornado sends the enemy on a horizontal direction, making it better for edgeguarding than Mario's.

Since it fits my style, I would prefer Mario with his tornado, even though I love the cancelled dair to utilt combo he has in this game.

I will repeat again, nobody except Mac and Ness should be gimped by FLUDD. .

Shulk, Ike and Kirby also get destroyed by it if they do not get the ledge spot on.

 

[Zethoro]

I think the preference comes down to the style you prefer. However, Mario Tornado sends the enemy upwards, only DocTornado sends the enemy on a horizontal direction, making it better for edgeguarding than Mario's.

Since it fits my style, I would prefer Mario with his tornado, even though I love the cancelled dair to utilt combo he has in this game.



Shulk, Ike and Kirby also get destroyed by it if they do not get the ledge spot on.

There is no "if" with Kirby and Ike, they can't sweetspot the ledge on the way up. If you're in the right place at the right time and FLUDD, they're getting gimped.
In addition, really anyone can be gimped by Fludd of they're in a position that's bad enough (shiek with no jumps and Bouncing fish used, for example.)

 

[Space Stranger]

Even though I use Doc as a secondary rather than a full main, I liked his powerful attacks and defensive playstyle. His recovery options, lack of relaible combos out of grabs, and poor mobility in the air, however, doesn't make him very favorable compared to my other two mains, Luigi and Captain Falcon.

Also, I have an interest in doctors so that might be an aesthetic factor.

 

[Hydde]

I use him as my secondary constantly... but he is the character that gives the most fun to m in smash4.

In melee i was a amrth main...but doc was my secondary. In smash4 im a link main and doc is my secondary.

I picked him up at the beggining of smash 4... but the lack of wavedash and Lcancel..coupled with the weakness of doc was too much to bear... si i dropped him.
A month or so ago i pikced him up again... and he seems to be much better..i dont know. Also.. i had to let go the ill feeling of not having WD and Lcancel as Doc...( i heavily depended on those 2 moves in melee with doc).

Now im adapting my game...but nothing beats the feeling of killing someone with a doc fair or a fsmash

 

[Doc Mario]

I use him as my secondary constantly... but he is the character that gives the most fun to m in smash4.

In melee i was a amrth main...but doc was my secondary. In smash4 im a link main and doc is my secondary.

I picked him up at the beggining of smash 4... but the lack of wavedash and Lcancel..coupled with the weakness of doc was too much to bear... si i dropped him.
A month or so ago i pikced him up again... and he seems to be much better..i dont know. Also.. i had to let go the ill feeling of not having WD and Lcancel as Doc...( i heavily depended on those 2 moves in melee with doc).

Now im adapting my game...but nothing beats the feeling of killing someone with a doc fair or a fsmash

I know what you mean about dropping smash 4 Doc, he's too damn slow for someone not extremely powerful, also, his up ar is somehow weaker than Mario's in terms of hitstun. They need to buff his running speed and up air damage and hitstun

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well I've been actually pulling out Doc in tournaments, and I've been finding him pretty seriously viable ever since I learned I could KO confirm fastfallers with D-throw Tornado, and floaties with Jab2 -> Up-B, two things that Mario just simply can't do.

Doc's matchup against Sheik is completely winnable at a tournament level as far as I'm concerned. My goal at this point is to simply get on the level of players like K9 and Void so I can show that a good Doc can do well in tournament.

 

[Doc Mario]

Well I've been actually pulling out Doc in tournaments, and I've been finding him pretty seriously viable ever since I learned I could KO confirm fastfallers with D-throw Tornado, and floaties with Jab2 -> Up-B, two things that Mario just simply can't do.

Doc's matchup against Sheik is completely winnable at a tournament level as far as I'm concerned. My goal at this point is to simply get on the level of players like K9 and Void so I can show that a good Doc can do well in tournament.

Oh, you again, I didn't know you play in tournaments but I did know that Doc has a good matchup against Sheik, I think he has a good matchup against Zero suit and Rosalina as well. I mean, Rosalina's one of those characters who I think Doc is better for than Mario but you know.
He's very underrated in smash 4 but I know he's not better than Mario, he's just too slow for that.

 

[SPoitter]

His AMAZING recovery, along with GOOD COMBO options.

 

[Doc Mario]

His AMAZING recovery, along with GOOD COMBO options.

His recovery is pretty legit for me, it's not bad

 

[SPoitter]

His recovery is pretty legit for me, it's not bad

i like doc because of that oos dsmash

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Well I've been actually pulling out Doc in tournaments, and I've been finding him pretty seriously viable ever since I learned I could KO confirm fastfallers with D-throw Tornado, and floaties with Jab2 -> Up-B, two things that Mario just simply can't do.

Doc's matchup against Sheik is completely winnable at a tournament level as far as I'm concerned. My goal at this point is to simply get on the level of players like K9 and Void so I can show that a good Doc can do well in tournament.

I have been doing this for 3 months or so now because I keep watching S@X and that is how Boss ends his matches using Luigi. I thought I could just do the same with Doc. I have not been able to replicate it on every character though. Is it just fastfallers or are there certain % that it is just guaranteed?

 

[KenMeister]

I have been doing this for 3 months or so now because I keep watching S@X and that is how Boss ends his matches using Luigi. I thought I could just do the same with Doc. I have not been able to replicate it on every character though. Is it just fastfallers or are there certain % that it is just guaranteed?

It's very percent specific and mostly only works on fast fallers like Sheik and ZSS.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I have been doing this for 3 months or so now because I keep watching S@X and that is how Boss ends his matches using Luigi. I thought I could just do the same with Doc. I have not been able to replicate it on every character though. Is it just fastfallers or are there certain % that it is just guaranteed?

To make a long story short, it's much more likely to properly combo at KO ranges on fastfallers. Doc doesn't have the same D-throw IASA as Luigi, so the combo definitely is less likely to KO confirm on floaties, especially if they're not lightweight.

ALSO, the other useful thing to remember is that this combo IMPROVES WITH RAGE. Due to the very high base knockback on Tornado, it scales with rage harder than Doc's D-throw, meaning it's easier to KO confirm with D-throw Tornado generally speaking when you're at very high rage. I'm talking like potentially killing people near the edge around 60% in theory when you have max Rage.

 

[3bubby]

Dr. Mario always had a charm about him, and I figured he needed love. But I was wrong! This thread shows me how much love he gets.

Still, he's a lot of fun to play, and because he's so under the radar, he's a blast to decimate people with.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

To add to the discussion on Down-Throw to Down-B, it works on non-fast fallers (e.g. Pit/Dark Pit, Mewtwo, etc.) but you cannot kill them with this combo. It is better on characters like Sheik, ZSS, Diddy, Fox, Falco, etc.

 

[SaucyButter-]

I personally love to play Doctor Mario because of his risk vs. reward style of play. He reminds me of a more versatile Little Mac, which I'm entirely gung-ho for. Sure, his recovery is pitiful, and his run speed is a bit slower, but you can get early KO's with his stronger attacks in tandem with a more rewarding combo game. And better yet, he retains the hilarious properties of the cape. I would love if he got buffed in the future, but his current state won't stop me from playing him. Plus, his Up-B is the most satisfying move to kill with, in my opinion.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

I personally love to play Doctor Mario because of his risk vs. reward style of play. He reminds me of a more versatile Little Mac, which I'm entirely gung-ho for. Sure, his recovery is pitiful, and his run speed is a bit slower, but you can get early KO's with his stronger attacks in tandem with a more rewarding combo game. And better yet, he retains the hilarious properties of the cape. I would love if he got buffed in the future, but his current state won't stop me from playing him. Plus, his Up-B is the most satisfying move to kill with, in my opinion.

That feeling you get when your opponent is about to come back to the ledge and you drop down and Docnado him.

 

[SaucyButter-]

That feeling you get when your opponent is about to come back to the ledge and you drop down and Docnado him.

Yep. There really isn't anything more satisfying than that. I think the sound alone is what sells me.

 

[PowerPuffPlayer]

This is my reason.
https://youtu.be/-kvPkUUOf0A

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

For a long time I found that I could not use Mario. As he slowly climbed the tier list, he became more and more of a prominent character everywhere I went, and try as I may I couldn't get any good combos/plays. One night I tried Dr. Mario as a joke. Turns out I found an incredible combo potential in Dr. Mario, and since then I've been using the Doc as a casual pick whenever I get bored with my mains or other counterpicks.

 

[PowerPuffPlayer]

For a long time I found that I could not use Mario. As he slowly climbed the tier list, he became more and more of a prominent character everywhere I went, and try as I may I couldn't get any good combos/plays. One night I tried Dr. Mario as a joke. Turns out I found an incredible combo potential in Dr. Mario, and since then I've been using the Doc as a casual pick whenever I get bored with my mains or other counterpicks.

You just recently joined?

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Yes, but I've been playing Sm4sh since November. I joined SmashBoards to search for future tournaments.

 

[PowerPuffPlayer]

Yes, but I've been playing Sm4sh since November. I joined SmashBoards to search for future tournaments.

oh. ok.

 

[Spatman]

For the brilliant Dr Mario: fever theme

 

[Luggy]

I always main basic characters in fighting games, with generally their clones. For example, in the Street Fighter series, I generally play Ryu and Ken, sometimes Dan if he's in.
In Smash, I've always mained Mario, as he always felt like the most balanced character. When I don't main the plumber, I either take his brother or, in this case, Dr.Mario. Italians all the way.

My opinion has always been mixed about Doc' in Smash 4. His recovery sucks, like always, his combo game isn't outstanding, and you could argue that mobility is better than raw power.
That's why, generally speaking, people prefer Mario, who has all the tools to give himself a win, with a reflector, water, great combos, good recovery, good kill moves, a spike, and even a tipper.
But nowadays, I treat Doc and Mario equally. They're very different, some matchups are better with Doc' than Mario, and vice versa. If a matchup needs an offensive response, Mario is the way to go. If it's the opposite, Doc will help greatly.

The point is, I did not pick Dr.Mario because "he's better than Mario" or other reasons. I just use him when I need to.
It's just an opinion, feel free to disagree if you want.

 

[Falkorr]

For me, I mained back in the day, before I even knew what a tech or a wavedash was. When Brawl came out, I was a bit disappointed to find he'd been cut, and more so to find that F.L.U.D.D. was mediocre at best, but I mained regardless, picking up later on.

Come Smash 4, and was back in business, and with the Tornado intact! I immediately picked him back up, and have been maining him and ever since.

 

[Conn1496]

There were several reasons I picked Doc. Kind of a little story to it really.

Back in brawl, I played Mario pretty excessively for a short skit, but no matter how hard I tried I just never fully got into him. Needless to say Smash 4 rolled around and I gave him another kick only to find I had no desire to play him at all. But! -with the inclusion of Doc and the horrific nerfing/complete removal of my mains on the game's launch, I gave Doc a try as an alternative to Mario. Lo and behold he became my new "Falco" (Because pre-patch Falco is basically abysmal.), Falco being my secondary in Brawl. His moves felt pretty damn natural to me, and with a similar feel and tools to my old secondary (In my opinion.), he just grew on me. Of course, even with the buffs to Falco, he still plays different, so to me Doc is the best of a bad situation gotten better - which is to say, pretty damned awesome, actually.

(That, and I can't help but feel getting a Ganon vibe from a couple of his moves, which is also awesome. U-air and F-air, anyone?)

(Oh, and landboxes... His D-air landbox is sweet.)

 

[DiggsLeehay]

Well, I picked the Doc because I despise , and I want to wreck everyone with a "Bad Character"