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What kind of habits do you seek to punish?

Rango the Mercenary

The Mercenary
Joined
May 22, 2007
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I've never been one to punish bad habits, except the most glaring and obvious ones. Ledge recovery, airdodging, and shielding are three major ones that come to mind. Even then, my entire gameplan was to just bait them into coming in, and using a ranged attack to beat them out. This has not been the best way to achieve results, as faster attacks will beat out even attempted good spacing, and overly defensive play can itself be punishable.

It wasn't until CEO that I re-learned a method to attack with aerials and punish shielding with tomahawk grabs. As an Ike main, players love to slip under me while I try to space them out, powershield, and get a free grab. I'm also quickly learning how this works to my advantage and can go right into a standing grab to punish it.

Once again, I've never been one to purposely exploit anything but the most obvious habits, but for some players, they're able to fish out simple things, like too much jumping, too much use of a specific attack, using the same recovery angle, or even their approach.

What's your method to baiting bad habits and what do you enjoy looking for to punish?
 

Combos4Dayz

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 8, 2016
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22
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Combos4Dayz
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Use one match to data mine, look for patterns in their playstyle or for overuse of moves (like ZeRo constantly using Monkey Flip unsafely). If you catch on earlier, congratz.

Unrelated, I see you second Cloud. I suggest you try to fit him, or even Corrin, into your primary sometime.
They can do what Ike can and more, and are just better overall.

But hey, your mind, my opinion. :p
 

jet56

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
442
Bro can we talk about the fact that So many people try to shield grab almost everything? That's something i love to punish, someone whiffing a shieldgrab. Maybe it's because they are used to the old shield stun, when shielding was beyond strong? Side note, people also seem to think it's safe to just short hop and bair in neutral with certain characters.
 

Fluorescent

Smash Apprentice
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Mar 21, 2015
Messages
117
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NeoRashi
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A lot of obvious ones come to mind which being things like their rolling habits and tech options. A certain habit I have faced in tournaments and friends alike are that they're most likely to roll away from a tech roll or a missed tech which I tend to always lookout for as it looks really safe but any option can be punished if done right.

A lot of people tend to not see this but recovering options can be a habit too. Most people like to do a dropzone recovery where they'll attempt to snap the ledge from the pinnacle of their recovery instead of recovering high or using an aggressive option. I see a lot of Mac's do this (and some Falcon's) which is understandable as they're very prone to be getting gimped and a lot of these habits go unnoticed to a few players of it.
 

Frizz

Will Thwack You At 0%
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
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Location
Massachusetts
As a Robin main, it's important for me to zone and trap my opponents as well as to punish their mistakes. Although sometimes I like to bait them out. For example, whenever I get them off-stage, I tend to follow them. When this happens, they usually airdodge. When that happens, I Elwind meteor smash them. I don't rely on that too much though, so I only use that tactic if my opponent either has a habit of shielding, rolling, or airdodging.
 

TriTails

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
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Looking at your face
FG player here.

Personally? I love punishing rolls with Luigi's and Mario's U-smashes. In fact I usually don't even try to read, whenever they finish something and I'm near them, I usually just run backwards and U-smash. If they roll in, they get hit. If they dash, they get hit. If they roll away or shield? I still maintain my safety while potentially gaining free stage control.

Not really a punishable habit, but FG players also often take to the air to juggle me when staying on the ground is like, 100% better when juggling Luigi. Sometimes I manage to sneak in a N-air and land before them, instantly reversing the tide of disadvantage. Then I just spam U-smash from that point there.

Also, typical FG Falcons love to run into random SH B-airs. Not sure why I'm doing them in the first place in neutral because it's hella unsafe against Falcon but when you predict their run in and hit them with a 14% it feels... warm inside.

But yeah. This ain't no tourney. I just hang out on FG because there literally no one else to play Smash with and it's pretty fun when it doesn't lag.
 

Masonomace

Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
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Apr 10, 2010
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Independence, MO
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Masonomace
As a Shulk player, I actually think about one's back-side when playing against opponents in a set / match / friendlies / bracket. The more options they choose that expose their back to me or at the very least interest me in that they feel comfortable with those options, the more I keep of that in mind & exploit their back with a meaty satisfying Back Slash later on within said games.

Examples:
  • How they choose to get back onto stage with a ledge option ------ So they ledge roll & now during half of that option's endlag when intangibility expires, I can get a free Back Scratch on their backside

  • Whether they try to do RAR Bairs in Neutral ------ A character like Corrin can be said to be a "auto-spacing" maneuver option, but whether that's true or not, Back Slash has more disjointed range & forward-advancing movement once frame 22 begins airborne, even if a RAR SH Bair autocancels for Corrin

  • How they react with a dodge option upon the original game-plan's intention ------ What I mean is, typically an aggressive play-style on the ground can expose a decent amount of spot-dodging in place because of the moment they become unsafe & in danger without proper spacing or misread, they're in a bind & may likely spot-dodge because rolling or an alternate option isn't ideal for them. Spot-dodging doesn't require you to move from your spot so if they evade that reaction with spot-dodge they can retaliate & maintain their aggressive routine again. So what I say in my case about Back Slash, is if they forward roll away from me, a Back Slash can punish a frame window because a forward roll exposes the back-side of a character whenever the roll's intangibility expires & suffers endlag. Additionally, an airdodge can be outplayed with an airborne Back Slash via a read

  • Abusing the edge-guard phase ------ A character who's launched towards a blast line facing toward it & their back facing toward me & the ledge can mean limitation & a risk to them they wouldn't like to be in. Characters such as Corrin & R.O.B. who can't use their Bair to use as a pseudo-recovery option, or Falcon who recovers less effectively when having to reverse Falcon Dive due to his momentum being shot, these events will vary as well as the character-based situations being different too. This also means that if Shulk were to Bthrow them offstage, then a likely Back Slash is always a thought in mind
 

TriTails

Smash Lord
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Looking at your face
I forgot to mention. When Shulks Back Slashes offstage for no reason, it always gives me a chuckle.

(Interesting tidbits Masonomace. Especially since I main Mario and play Falcon and their B-airs that's something to keep in mind against Shulk.)

Speaking of people falling offstage helplessly. Ikes who recover high with QD can be predicted and punished by Mario's FLUDD, absolutely sending them rocketing to the other side in confusion as their momentum is turned against them (Isn't this one of the basic of self-defense arts? By turning the opponent's momentum against them? They throw a punch and then you can predict/read it, then following up with a grab to a throw backwards?)

Punishing bad edgeguard attempts with Luigi Cyclone recovery is also one of the stuffs I have no idea could work but it works anyway. If they have bad recovery and happen to miss their edgeguard attempt while being above you, a Cyclone will usually catch then release them mid-flight, essentially a weaker Cyclone gimp that will take the stock.
 

Rango the Mercenary

The Mercenary
Joined
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Use one match to data mine, look for patterns in their playstyle or for overuse of moves (like ZeRo constantly using Monkey Flip unsafely). If you catch on earlier, congratz.

Unrelated, I see you second Cloud. I suggest you try to fit him, or even Corrin, into your primary sometime.
They can do what Ike can and more, and are just better overall.

But hey, your mind, my opinion. :p
 
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D

Deleted member 269706

Guest
Rolls and double jumps. Probably the most efficient way to clean up stocks.
 

Nah

Smash Champion
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
2,162
How you bait a bad habit and how you punish it depends on the habit (and can also be character specific). Typically you wanna see if they usually react the same way in a specific situation, and then from there you can work out how best to bait and punish/exploit it. Like in the example in the OP where if whenever you jump at someone they like to shield, expecting an aerial, you can punish that habit via tomahawking.

A simple one I like is baiting out airdodges. Airdodging when you get near them is a common habit of people with characters with poor landing options (read: literally half the cast). All you gotta do when you notice this habit is just wait a half-second longer before inputting Uair and watching the hope fade from their eyes as they're sent into the upper blastzone.

Or I imagine what that's what people's faces look like when it happens anyway; I play mostly online.

People of course can adapt to you exploiting their habits, so you gotta watch out for that.


.....as a side note, Corrin doesn't exactly do what Ike does but better.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
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Apr 28, 2008
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I like to make my opponent air-dodge just by jumping toward them to wait for them to air-dodge. A b-air works nicely. I don't see Samus mains do this, but I like to fire homing missiles, since I won't technically ever have to approach.
 
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meticulousboy

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I mostly look for rolls, not necessarily spot dodges. It doesn't have to be your annoying roll spam FG opponent. It is mostly rolls that are done once I run towards an opponent. If they roll away from me, I just run towards the position they would end up once the back roll is finished. I usually capitalize with a grab. Like for instance, if Ness does PK Fire and I (perfect) shield it, even if he rolls aways from me just once per attempt, I would look for the little things like that.
 

Murlough

Euphoria
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Rolls, air dodges, and get-up options are my go to.

I'm trying to pick up on my opponents attack patterns too.
 

Rango the Mercenary

The Mercenary
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I feel like defensive options seem to take priority here. Sure, everyone has a preference between dashgrabs and dash attacks for mixups, but when facing a high-level player who knows their autocancels and safe, baiting pokes, it's hard to really punish offense. And that's assuming they're doing more than recklessly throwing hitboxes, which can be outranged by disjointed attacks.

It seems the preference I'm reading goes for rolls, airdodges, ledge get-ups, and recoveries, all of which leave players vulnerable if read, with no time for them to strike back. I've felt like I've needed to start punishing habits better, but I think I'm getting a better understanding of exactly what to look for.
 

Pazda

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 5, 2016
Messages
4
Reactions to shield pressure. When you pressure a shield properly, you're at an advantage to punish whatever option they choose.
 

Combos4Dayz

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Combos4Dayz
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Well well, look who's maining Cloud now.
 
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JagerCry

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
35
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Tri-state
I find a lot of people go for stronger attacks instead of quicker ones so just getting hitboxes out faster in general helps. You do have to kinda learn each opponent as you go and some people can mix up their play style. Obvious ones that come to mind are people rolling or teching away constantly. When someone is recovering if they burn their double jump early or try to recover high that's something that is easy to punish. Don't let people recovering have the ledge for free. Every Cloud player will try to avoid burning limit when recovering so that is exploitable. In general throwing hitboxes at someone recovering.
Always try to be unpredictable. Everyone seems to focus on trying to learn your opponent but don't forget it's also important to not let your opponent learn you.
Don't just go for the strong moves when your opponent is at KO percent. Play your game and the KO's will come. You see someone at 120% and it's easy to wanna start throwing out smash attacks instead of tilts or weak and fast aerials.
 

MojoRobo

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Usually I try to observe their playstyle as best I can before I think about ways to punish them. In the moment I have a fairly respectable memory so I can remember their tendencies on defensive maneuvers such as ledge getup options or what they will shield against. Most of the time I like to make them think these choices are safe by purposefully getting punished.

I guess you could say I like to condition opponents to stick with specific options and then punish them for staying with that option. The way I go about it is not optimal, I know, and I should probably get to changing it sometime.
 

Rust punch

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
Messages
6
I main mario and I've been practicing my cloud matchup a lot but I always seem to have problems adapting to cloud mains that are good at rush down I know it's not one of mario's best MU but can you guys give me some tricks to counter low lag, big hit box rushdown

As far as baiting goes wich I believe to be my forte I recomend that you use a projectile or low commitment option first determine their response and try to use a move or moves that when spaced properly on shield are difficult to punish yet if they use the option that you've observed at the beginning of the exchange it permits you to punish in any shape or form. The trick lies in keeping up with his changes on response a thing I'm having trouble doing against good cloud mains that play aggressively.
 
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Nah

Smash Champion
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
2,162
I main mario and I've been practicing my cloud matchup a lot but I always seem to have problems adapting to cloud mains that are good at rush down I know it's not one of mario's best MU but can you guys give me some tricks to counter low lag, big hit box rushdown
You'll want to try the Mario boards, they're more liekly to have the answers you seek
 
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