What is the Cloud MU to Meta Knight mains?

MERPIS

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#1
How do we do well against him? Apparently it is 50:50.
 

Conn1496

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#2
I don't main MK, but he's my strongest character after Jr. IMO...

I actually find the MU pretty easy, even though Cloud can space us pretty hard and is quite safe, he's not that hard to get offstage or to gimp as MK so I make that my gameplan when I can hit him. Of course you still mostly bait/punish as usual, though there's the pressure to act from Limit, but I don't think it's anything Meta Knight players can't work around since a good portion of the time you'll be applying counter-pressure and he won't be stood there building limit just in-case you wombo combo him. That said, a lot of the pressure you apply in this MU has to be more mental than physical since Cloud can play pretty damn safe. But again, MK players can make it work.

Of course, Cloud also beats you vertically somewhat, which is a big part of our game, but I don't think it stops you from juggling him with stuff like U-Air if you're fast or accurate (which you should be), and I think smart use of Dimensional Cape can assist in getting MK out of U-Air strings. I'm not sure about using U-Tilt as a combo extender/to beat Cloud's D-Air either, but honestly?.. -this is one of the few MUs where you probably want to play horizontal anyway and just ignore juggling too much as dealing unnecessary % will just add to his limit. The usual Shuttle Loop shenanigans still work of course, but why focus on getting to those if you can gimp him for early leads.

Cloud does have good KO power though, and MK is kind of light, so it's not like the easy KO options are totally one sided in MK's favor. This is an MU where bad moves can mean hell to pay on both sides, Cloud's recoveries - for example - have to be on point since we can just sit and Jab on the ledge if they never manage the sweetspot, and even then, the Jab Finisher can 2-frame in my experience, so timing it can invalidate a sweetspot anyway and start the cycle again.

I think as the meta progresses, we might even see MK winning this MU because he can capitalize so easily on the pros and cons, and pressure Cloud into never truly focusing on limit unless Cloud pushes back. Though, that's just my opinion on it, and I think some people would say Cloud is still just too good to have his weaknesses so easily exploited.
 

MERPIS

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#3
I don't main MK, but he's my strongest character after Jr. IMO...

I actually find the MU pretty easy, even though Cloud can space us pretty hard and is quite safe, he's not that hard to get offstage or to gimp as MK so I make that my gameplan when I can hit him. Of course you still mostly bait/punish as usual, though there's the pressure to act from Limit, but I don't think it's anything Meta Knight players can't work around since a good portion of the time you'll be applying counter-pressure and he won't be stood there building limit just in-case you wombo combo him. That said, a lot of the pressure you apply in this MU has to be more mental than physical since Cloud can play pretty damn safe. But again, MK players can make it work.

Of course, Cloud also beats you vertically somewhat, which is a big part of our game, but I don't think it stops you from juggling him with stuff like U-Air if you're fast or accurate (which you should be), and I think smart use of Dimensional Cape can assist in getting MK out of U-Air strings. I'm not sure about using U-Tilt as a combo extender/to beat Cloud's D-Air either, but honestly?.. -this is one of the few MUs where you probably want to play horizontal anyway and just ignore juggling too much as dealing unnecessary % will just add to his limit. The usual Shuttle Loop shenanigans still work of course, but why focus on getting to those if you can gimp him for early leads.

Cloud does have good KO power though, and MK is kind of light, so it's not like the easy KO options are totally one sided in MK's favor. This is an MU where bad moves can mean hell to pay on both sides, Cloud's recoveries - for example - have to be on point since we can just sit and Jab on the ledge if they never manage the sweetspot, and even then, the Jab Finisher can 2-frame in my experience, so timing it can invalidate a sweetspot anyway and start the cycle again.

I think as the meta progresses, we might even see MK winning this MU because he can capitalize so easily on the pros and cons, and pressure Cloud into never truly focusing on limit unless Cloud pushes back. Though, that's just my opinion on it, and I think some people would say Cloud is still just too good to have his weaknesses so easily exploited.
I agree. Also due to our small size, we can pretty much float out of the way of nair to limit cross. Cloud's juggling is completely nulified against some one who is both a fast faller, and has 6 jumps to fake people out with. Cloud's range isn't that big of an issue considering we have dash attack and dash grab, which both go very far. And while Cloud has good kill power, you can't kill what you can't catch, meanwhile MK can just get a dthrow or dash attack to upb or a bthrow to harassment offstage, both very well securing the KO.Not to mention MK's jab and dsmash both hit Cloud below the ledge. So that's a thing.
 
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Jamurai

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#4
I think it's either even or -1 for MK, I'm leaning towards -1. Cloud's damage output is pretty ridiculous and combined with how hard it can be to penetrate his combination of massive hitboxes and mobility, while being threatened with single moves or two-hit combos which do 20-30%, the neutral game is painful and tiring over a set (which can't be understated). But it's not too bad cause our combos almost always put him in a very uncomfortable position i.e. offstage as long as you use the right finisher, and he's a good weight for them so we get good damage on him consistently. He beats us in the killing department cause we're light af, and he loves that MK has bad ledge getup options (LCS at the ledge on reaction is :mad:).

Utilt is the only thing we have that beats Dair from below. Obviously we can run to the side of him and Bair/Fair too, although this requires practice. It's also annoying that we don't have a good move (i.e. no meteor) to exploit the weak point of Climhazzard.
 

Conn1496

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#6
I think it's either even or -1 for MK, I'm leaning towards -1. Cloud's damage output is pretty ridiculous and combined with how hard it can be to penetrate his combination of massive hitboxes and mobility, while being threatened with single moves or two-hit combos which do 20-30%, the neutral game is painful and tiring over a set (which can't be understated). But it's not too bad cause our combos almost always put him in a very uncomfortable position i.e. offstage as long as you use the right finisher, and he's a good weight for them so we get good damage on him consistently. He beats us in the killing department cause we're light af, and he loves that MK has bad ledge getup options (LCS at the ledge on reaction is :mad:).

Utilt is the only thing we have that beats Dair from below. Obviously we can run to the side of him and Bair/Fair too, although this requires practice. It's also annoying that we don't have a good move (i.e. no meteor) to exploit the weak point of Climhazzard.
I actually think we have a few moves that do a good job of making mince-meat of Climhazzard. Just because we can't meteor him doesn't mean we don't have options. Most of our moves will either knock him away from the ledge and/or set us up for an easy gimp, or will outright stage-spike him. We don't even have to go off-stage if the Cloud player isn't careful since D-Tilt and Jab can knock him far enough away that without a jump he doesn't get back.

I will agree with what you said about the neutral though. It can get pretty stressful since it becomes all about keeping pressure without getting hit as you can't realistically let him get limit if you want the upper hand, and since Cloud outranges you, it can feel like an uphill battle, but one hit and Cloud suddenly has to play perfect to avoid a stock disappearing into thin air.

I agree. Also due to our small size, we can pretty much float out of the way of nair to limit cross. Cloud's juggling is completely nulified against some one who is both a fast faller, and has 6 jumps to fake people out with. Cloud's range isn't that big of an issue considering we have dash attack and dash grab, which both go very far. And while Cloud has good kill power, you can't kill what you can't catch, meanwhile MK can just get a dthrow or dash attack to upb or a bthrow to harassment offstage, both very well securing the KO.Not to mention MK's jab and dsmash both hit Cloud below the ledge. So that's a thing.
I don't think it's that easy - Cloud still pressures us and he can absolutely catch us if he needs to since he's faster than us, but our punish game is obnoxiously strong compared to his - all the time, too, instead of just occasionally like Cloud's Limit - he has to work much more for KOs, even if it's not as hard, whereas we can KO him relatively easily with a single well placed string. We apply more theoretical pressure to Cloud than he does to us, and that's why I think the MU is in our favour we invalidate his pressure game so all he has is zoning. I imagine he has to challenge our movement to avoid us being close enough to catch him off-guard too, and that means he's pretty easy to bait, which also means free, strong punishes.

I don't think we're at a point right now where we beat Cloud, but as people optimize the MU, as I say, expect MK to start taking the lead.
 

Jamurai

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#7
I actually think we have a few moves that do a good job of making mince-meat of Climhazzard. Just because we can't meteor him doesn't mean we don't have options. Most of our moves will either knock him away from the ledge and/or set us up for an easy gimp, or will outright stage-spike him. We don't even have to go off-stage if the Cloud player isn't careful since D-Tilt and Jab can knock him far enough away that without a jump he doesn't get back.
The weak point is at the back. We don't have the range to challenge it from the front. Because he's prone to stage spiking cause of the weird untechable property of Climhazzard, most characters can simply run off and Bair it or something and he's dead. But it doesn't work with multihits, which both Fair and Bair are. The only way to do it without getting hit out would be like a well-timed run-off Nair which is a big commitment.

I do concede that we could shield it from onstage and Dsmash him after though. Need to try that, along with Drilling into the stage.
 

Ulevo

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#8
The issues in this match up for Meta Knight are when he is in the air and when he is on the ledge. His air speed is very poor relative to Cloud's and especially Limit Cloud's air speed, so juggling and frame trapping Meta Knight is an effective strategy. This tends to force Meta Knight to the ledge if he cannot land, and this is a problem by itself. Limit Cross Slash kills Meta Knight from a ledge get up at 64% with no rage, and 50% from a ledge trump on stages other than Battlefield and Dreamland, so neither are a safe position to be in. Any moves that knock Meta Knight into the air such as dash attack, forward air or down tilt are the moves you want to watch out for since while they are not incredibly dangerous on their own, they are what place you into these unfavourable positions.

To win, Meta Knight needs to remain grounded. There are options to punish auto cancelled down air, you just need to be timely. Up tilt can win at times but it usually trades, and trading with Cloud is how you typically lose. Up tilt also does not allow for guaranteed follow ups, where as other options put him into a tech knock down or a combo. Up tilt is pretty good if Cloud is attempting to land onto a platform however, since trading will be impossible.

I like to refrain from going to Lylat and the other platform stages because down throw from Cloud often puts Meta Knight onto the platforms and allows Cloud to get follow ups that would not have been guaranteed otherwise. Cloud is also not as vulnerable from below when standing on a platform as other characters because fall through up air is very strong, and up airs hit box is huge. Battlefield's ceiling alone makes many of our moves kill around 6% later than usual, so when you add Limit's 3-5% extra on top of that, you are climbing a further uphill battle.

Final Destination is definitely one of the better stages to pick for the match up, and there are Omega's with more preferable ledge layouts for exploiting his recovery. This is something that needs to be looked at in more detail.

If Cloud down throws you from 10-18%, Cross Slash is guaranteed. Prior to that, down and away while holding shield is the effective strategy, while holding down and away or up and away past 18% and resorting to jump plus air dodge is a good way to get out of Cloud's frame traps.

Other things to look out for in neutral are being crossed up by his jab combo, and being aware of Cross Slash punishes. You can always roll behind him when he uses Cross Slash 1, and Limit Cross Slash can be spot dodged for a dash attack or Shuttle Loop if you feel you are confident enough to do so. Jab combo should be DI'd up, otherwise it sends you into a tech knock down and you will get hit by the follow up dash attack unless you tech roll in. This of course does put you in the air so you need to decide which one is more favourable. Also, Limit Climbhazard does not have a hitbox near the end of the move, and even if you challenge it during the middle of the moves duration, you are likely to trade if you use neutral air. Smart Clouds will recover high however and use Climbhazard 2 to drop to the ledge, which is hard to challenge from the front.

If Cloud has Limit, you cannot trap his landings for free anymore with shield as there is the threat of Limit Cross Slash if you attempt to grab him during his empty jump. Always expect back airs if Cloud is jumping with his back towards you. Also, as time goes on, Clouds will begin to use Limit Climbhazard more, as many smarter Cloud mains are beginning to. This move kills Meta Knight at 107% without rage out of shield and has a lot of range to it.

If you are ledge trapping Cloud, you need to respect his ledge jump up air, as most Cloud's will do this if they think you are not paying attention, and it completely reverses the advantage/disadvantage state.

If Cloud is ledge trapping you and he is without Limit, the two things Cloud will usually attempt are full hop auto cancelled down airs into grab to cover the ledge get up, jump, or roll, or empty short or full hop into back air to cover your ledge get up. Both of these can be predicted based off of the Cloud's positioning and whether or not the their back is turned.

This should be relatively obvious, but you cannot rush Cloud simply because he is charging Limit Break. Meta Knight's options are not particularly strong from a rush down stand point, and Cloud holds a lot of options by baiting you into this position. You need to threaten him with your zone while he is charging without predictably acting to stop him from charging. Getting clean combos and punishes in favour of giving him a little more meter is favourable over the potential consequences of being predictable in your approaches.

This match up could be even or slightly in Meta Knight's favour if optimized. The problem is that Meta Knight's game is usually consistent where as Cloud can get a read at the wrong time and kill Meta Knight at 60-70%, and over time this adds up to Cloud winning more matches than he otherwise would. I think if one player is better than the other this match up turns into a land slide pretty quickly.
 
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Conn1496

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#9
The weak point is at the back. We don't have the range to challenge it from the front. Because he's prone to stage spiking cause of the weird untechable property of Climhazzard, most characters can simply run off and Bair it or something and he's dead. But it doesn't work with multihits, which both Fair and Bair are. The only way to do it without getting hit out would be like a well-timed run-off Nair which is a big commitment.

I do concede that we could shield it from onstage and Dsmash him after though. Need to try that, along with Drilling into the stage.
I dunno if B-Air is that bad for the job, honestly. Sure, Cloud can tech it, but it's still a potential stage-spike. The only bad outcome really would be to only hit the first hit (which I don't see happening), as even missing the third would spike him with the drag-down of the second hit. It might even be beneficial to drag him down as opposed to going for a stage-spike as then there's no chance to tech anything at all. It is pretty unsafe though compared to other options, so I agree probably not the best.

I still think N-Air and D-Air also would work fine though since both are single-hit potential stage-spikes - though obviously D-Air only has 1 active frame. It is frame 4 though and safe to do offstage unlike N-Air, so pretty good if you can nail the timing, which probably isn't that hard.

All that said, shielding Climhazzard and doing something OoS isn't a horrible idea either, it just kind of assumes the Cloud player didn't sweetspot, which likely means that Jab or D-Tilt could have tapped them out of it before you even got hit too, and both those can easily take stocks if Cloud has no jump as I previously mentioned.

Overall I'm convinced a well-placed D-Air or two is the best tool for the job as you can actually do it OoS anyway, can hit ledge from onstage, it's a single hit frame 8 onstage (jumpsquat 4, move hits on 4) and frame 4 if you're already in the air, is mostly non-committal and knocks opponents back a reasonable distance. Even if it doesn't knock them far enough back, you can follow it up. It's just too flexible not to consider just always going for a D-Air to beat Climhazzard, IMO, even if the active frames are horrible. -that's just my approach to it though.
 

Geese

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#10
This is my most practiced MU and I believe it to be Cloud favored. Cloud has the range and lack of laggy moves which are Meta Knight's 2 biggest issues. His butter knife cant hold a candle to Cloud's tanker ship of a sword and since Cloud can cover all his whiffed moves with jab it makes it very hard to punish him. Along with baiting him, Cloud will m be looking for time to charge limit, so he will be avoiding you most of the time, and he will most likely never come out of his limit charging zone unless

1. You invade his zone, effectively forcing you to approach which is unsafe since he can just wall you out

2. He finishes charging limit which makes it harder to kill him with uairs to shuttle loop

3. You try and bait him out by faking going into his zone, in which he will try to space you out and go back to charging limit as most if his walling moves have no endlag to punish


Along with this, limit can really screw up uair combos because of the sudden change in fall speed, so you both need to read the DI, keep an eye on their percent and try to remember what their limit will be at. The only things that Meta Knigt really outclasses Cloud in is his amazing punish game, recovery (by a huge amount), gimping ability (cloud's is still very strong with nair but he cant go as deep) and approach game
 

New_Dumal

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#11
I also thinks that Cloud wins that MU, being one of the hardest to MK (together with Sonic and Sheik).
My main problems with figthing Clouds, even more if the Cloud player have experience against MK, is that they frequently turn our great situations over their favor.

We have a better ground game than Cloud, but the Bair range eats any dash approach and you can't YOLO roll in as is possible against some aerials, you must respect the Bair.
So, while against Mario is possible to hit them while they're in the air, my experience taught me to don't approach if they're jumping. Wait until they land, then go. The crosslash is the worst thing that can happen to you, what will not hurt you so much if Cloud is not Limit Charged.

The hardest part of this MU is know where to stop and how to win without going very far. if you start to combo Cloud at low percents with Uairs they can SDI+DI downward and Uair you out of the combo, putting you in risk of taking more and more Uairs.
While Mk have a lot of jumps, I would not recommend to waste your jumps trying to find a safe space, just to go to the ledge or try to fastfall as soon you see a opening.

My main combo is to dash attack/Dthrow to RAR Uair->Dair->Bair or even Uair-> Nair.
Low damage, low risk. I only try to ladder him if he's without limit and my first Uair hit him around the edge of the sword.
if you predict that when returning to the stage he will try to Uair you at the ledge before using his UpB, FSmash them.
FSmash can be used against this rising Uair and will put them into death or a horrible situation.
With great timing is possible to face the second hit of the Climhazard, my main sugestion is to Dimensional Cape Slash, since it have a absurd horizontal hitbox and shift MK hurtbox away.
You just can't S.Loop into any situation that is possible to miss.
You can't Dair too much (but it's good to punish his upB).
If he's with limit charged, never Fsmash to bait anything, you will take a Blade Beam.

To be completely honest, I think that if you and your opponent plays equally good, you lose.
Cloud kills MK too easily, and in order to do the same we must edgeguard him at least one stock.
 
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