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What is the best use for dtilt?

Secretkpop or secretzpop?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 28.6%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Maybe make another poll thread to see if it is a good idea.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I will support Dragonite in the 2017 election.

    Votes: 5 71.4%

  • Total voters
    7
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Rickster

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
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3,834
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Faerghus
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2713-1285-8029
Diddy's is basically Zelda's but better in nearly every way
 

Lorde

Let 'em talk
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
4,479
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Ardnaxela
Switch FC
SW-6881-0865-5788
I'm not really an expert on it but I could write a 15 paragraph essay if you need me to.
feel free to write your essay

considering this is the competitive impressions thread, any discussion about the game is welcome
 

Lil Puddin

just a lil extra
Joined
Dec 24, 2013
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3,631
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idk half the time tbh
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LilPuddin
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Diddy's is basically Zelda's but better in nearly every way
Isn't :4diddy: just :4zelda: using her disguise magic to become a better character, like how she used to in Brawl or Melee?

I'm pretty sure :4bayonetta:/:4bayonetta2: is actually :4zelda: too.

And every other actually-good character is also :4zelda:.

That's why BAN•ZELDA is a very important movement that must be taken seriously before she takes over the entire roster. I think the only character she could never successfully replace is Ike. It's been scientifically proven that no amount of magic can duplicate that amount of manly bara. Maybe we should BAN•IKE while we're at it, tbh.

IKE STAHP.jpg
 

McKnightlíght

Getting back into the dunk game
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Messages
5,598
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"Work"
NNID
EvanMcKnight
3DS FC
4399-0018-3572
feel free to write your essay

considering this is the competitive impressions thread, any discussion about the game is welcome
Hmm... Y'know, I've been ignoring this thread for a while -- outside of just pure laziness and forgetting to do something about it --, I felt like people should do their own thing and have discussions without me or any other moderator saying something like: "This such thread already exists, go here and discuss here. Oh, and your thread got locked or merged because of that."

I would like to say some things, however. First off is that there are a lot of "(Is) Falco is bad(?)" and similar threads here. I don't know about the other character boards, but there's about 6 threads including this one about Falco being bad in this game since launch Smash 3DS.


Before I continue, all those listed threads are locked. Some for having a similar, but older thread in existence at the time and now for the fact they're old and to prevent necro-posting. Threads like those are fine. Really they are fine. One thing, however, is that "arguing" isn't really... Not thinking of the right word right now, but arguing, aggressive arguing, isn't since they can lead to some nasty fights. Discussing, however, is. Discussion on why a character is good, average, or bad is all right. Part of the posts in this thread are that, so whatever, not going to do much about this thread. One part, however, was that it did start out and was confirmed to be kind of a rant and venting... Sometimes, those are okay, but in most cases, I would have redirected it somewhere else or just straight up locked the thread if it's really that bad. Glancing through the thread, it wasn't much of a problem even with the "slight confusion".

The other thing is that when discussing stuff like this, I would prefer it if some research is done and consideration for the game and the other characters. I say this since it's very easy to just say, "Falco's recovery -- (end) lag as more commonly called in Smash -- on his moves are high." It's actually not true. His recovery / lag on his moves outside of Blaster, Falco Phantasm, and Reflector all of which are Specials, so that has to be taken into consideration, are average like other characters. It's a bit harder to see, but everyone in Smash has similar recovery on their moves. Of course, there are some moves that have lower recovery or higher recovery. Not everything is the same or should be.

I feel like a part of that problem comes from Smash not showing or using recovery frames when character frame datas are compiled. Instead, FAF or, even more rarely, total frames are used and that doesn't really tell the whole story. Oh look, Character X's Utilt has 31 FAF. That's awesome, but then you look at its startup and active frames, say, 3 startup, and 2 active, so it would hit 3-4, and you'd realize that it has 27 recovery frames. Not really good, but not really bad. Now, let's say its startup is 12. It would have 18 recovery frames which is really good even for a tilt. Basically, a Ganondorf Up Smash of high startup, but low recovery. This is an outdated spreadsheet I made listing everyone's recovery frames: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vclrFU6Kh-UONoHWqp9qsow86FnQyT5RvlskKEDqxr8/edit?usp=sharing. It's got some issues since I messed up some stuff, but everything should hopefully be within a 1-2 frame error. Explanation for that is that I was kind of new to frame data and I prefer to use total frames instead of FAF which probably lead me to adding or subtracting 1 frame from stuff; FAF is total frames + 1 and I think FAF is kind of pointless since it doesn't take much to assume that the next frame is when you can act. I think someone else has a more up to date one... I think LordWilliam1234 made one that includes everything and not just recovery frames.

If you want another example, take a look at any of Smash 4's character frame data and compare them to someone from Street Fighter V. You can take a look at Ryu's standing light punch, "Stand LP", and you know that it's a frame 3, 2 active, and 7 recovery move. Boom. Simple. Look at Ryu's jab 1 and you'll see it listed as frame 2-3 with a 16 FAF. Not as simple -- for me at least -- or as detailed compared to SFV's setup. SFV Ryu's frame data: http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Street_Fighter_V/Ryu.

The other thing comes from that and it's no fault of anyone -- really, it isn't --, but there is a tendency for people to ask for buffs and nerfs without considering the effects thoroughly. Stuff like Ganondorf needs to be much faster or Sheik needs to nerfed hard tends to come up. I'm not asking you to be seasoned game developers, but to just consider what would happen if something was changed. For me and in regards to Falco, this is major. Why? I want to ask all of you this: is a frame 5 Dair with 4 active spike frames not overpowered? In Brawl it had 3 while in Melee, it was all of its frames with the other half being a late, but weak spike similar to how Zelda's Dair works in Smash 4 or on PAL Melee, the late hit would be a 361 degree hit -- still is a 10 active spike. Before you start to answer, consider that it was one of the fastest and strongest not to mention one of the longest-lasting spikes in the series and that's not a lot since I can only think of Marth's and his was frame 6 in Brawl and Melee followed by Ryu's 8, very short-ranged spike with a sour-spot. The rest, especially in Smash 4, have Dair spikes or Dairs in general that are +14. Had Smash 4's Dair been around frame 10, then sure, frame 5 spike might be okay -- still pushing it in my opinion --, but not now. You'd have to lower, I don't know, +30 characters' Dair startup and that could lead to massive problems. Freaking Captain Falcon and Ganondorf with a frame 12 Dair or Samus with a frame 10 Dair and she's one of the few characters who actively use her Dair for setups.

I would argue that what the developers did in Melee and even Brawl with Falco (and Marth)'s Dair was a sin. It basically said screw you to game balance and game design since everyone else had much slower spikes or Dairs in general.

Other moves that come into question for me would be his Blaster and Falco Phantasm. What the developers did to Blaster in Smash 4 was both justified and unjustified. Justifiable was that it, like Dair, flew in the face of basic game design. What existed in Smash 64 -- it was Fox's Blaster --, Melee, and Brawl was a projectile that had relatively low startup, very low recovery, pretty fast travel speed, essentially infinite range, and could fire repeatedly in part of its low recovery and the fact that there was no limit to the amount of times it could be fired and the pretty high rate of fire. Blaster was broken. In other fighting games, recovery can be low, but something has to give like it has short range, high startup, or low travel speed and you'd need to spend meter to be able to fire a projectile more then once. In regards to Smash, because it does set knockback, firing continuously is pointless since it's Smash, why are you sitting there doing mostly nothing. You're doing damage, but not knockback, the main focus of Smash. I have similar feelings towards rapid jabs, but that's another story. Unjustifiably, however, is after removing auto-cancel on Blaster and other projectiles, they just straight up left it as is from Brawl. The high recovery? Yeah, Brawl's fault. Melee had average recovery at a price: ground Blaster had double Brawl and Smash 4's startup, but that's fine, especially compared to now. Would you rather have a frame 11, 48 recovery projectile or a frame 23, 35 recovery projectile? Brawl's decreased startup, but didn't touch the total frames from Melee. Smash 4 ported Falco over and a bunch others. Can you blame them? 50+ characters and I'd argue many of them had their problems to begin with.

Falco Phantasm is simple. Largest spike in the series. Still is the largest spike in Smash 4 despite its halved hitbox. Why? Brawl even managed to buff it. Really? Yes, it's slow like other spikes and it's not strong, but it's giant. It also debuted in the game where fall speeds were much higher. One touch from Falco Phantasm was likely death. At least in Brawl and Smash 4 fall speeds are lower and mostly for Smash 4, aerial jumps and recoveries are higher, but still. I think it should have been reexamined since the concept is, in my opinion, broken. Reference DACUS if you have to for a Side Special. It's quite curious considering Falco actually performs what looks like a DACUS in his intro cutscene in Subspace Emissary or just alter the angle. Oh look, it sends people flying behind Falco. Less problematic than spiking people... Meanwhile, Fox Illusion getting nerfed in damage in each game...

Last thing. Here's a comparison of Falco's frame data in Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4 plus patch changes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1n5FLoDecOaKwbwY4gJcM1RRK_81ibRSpOcIRAHWPYGs/edit?usp=sharing. Originally, I made this to analyze Falco's changes and try to understand him and the developers' actions more. Would have written up something, but I abandoned it since it would basically be a college thesis... It was also done to pinpoint his issues some of which people didn't really make a big deal until recently like Uair's sour-spot that existed since Melee or his Fire Bird which thanks to Brawl changing it the multi-hit mess it is instead of leaving it as 64 Fire Fox and letting Fire Wolf be the multi-hit, (and faster) Fire Fox. Notes: remember that Melee's fall speeds were much higher and gravity didn't affect vertical knockback until Brawl. This explains why vertically-inclined moves such as Dtilt had very high growths. It was done to compensate for Melee's fall speed and gravity. That being said, if you compare Melee and Brawl Dtilt, it does explain why Brawl Dtilt was weak: they didn't lower the growth to fit Brawl, to around the normal 100, but just nerfed it. Also, it's kind of old, so there might have been some mess-ups -- mostly to rapid jab which I recently found for Smash 4 and some Brawl stuff.

Speaking of rapid jab... Here's the frame data that was posted in the CCI thread recently: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.429826/page-595#post-21389906. Details where I got the information and all that jazz.

Now, not about this thread... @KetchupKaffei and everyone else. If you ever need a thread to be locked, moved, stickied, etc., either PM a mod or report the thread which if you're the owner / OP, just report your OP, the first post of the thread. PM'ing works, but since not all mods moderate all threads, it can be weird since we'd have to drag someone else in with jurisdiction. For example, if any of you PM me to do something about a Smash 4 Pikachu board thread, I can't do a thing since I'm a Smash 4 Falco moderator. Reports are easier since they just go the moderator(s) of the sections. Hopefully, that's not considered leaking confidential stuff. :p

For now, if the discussion is fine and you all want to continue. Sure. If not, then KetchupKaffei, tell me and I'll lock it. Other reason I'd lock this thread is if you all start acting like hooligans.
 
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