What is something you just... don’t get about Super Smash Bros?

[Ark of Silence101]

I know I'm gonna get hate for this, but I don't understand what people see in Geno, who outside of pleasing the following he's had since Brawl, does nothing for neither Nintendo or Square Enix.

 

[SmashBro99]

I know I'm gonna get hate for this, but I don't understand what people see in Geno, who outside of pleasing the following he's had since Brawl, does nothing for neither Nintendo or Square Enix.

You arent alone in this lol.

He's not relevant, has one major appearance, but I guess lots of nostalgia for lots of people. I beat SMRPG a few years back, it was fun but I found Geno boring compared to Mallow, but both were pretty forgettable characters.

If I had played it when I was a kid maybe I'd be nostalgic for him too and join the bandwagon?

Another thing I don't get: Why people think and argue about a game/franchises sales have anything to do with characters getting in looking at a handful of the characters we have.

If sales were that big a factor, wouldnt we have like Pauline, dinosaur Mario, Goomba Mario, Bullet Bill Mario, Koopa/Goomba duo, Toad, Paper Mario, and a bunch of Breath of the Wild characters?

 

[Fell God]

What I don't understand? Complaints about clones. It's not like they're keeping your favorite character (which will likely never get in) out of the game.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

What I don't understand? Complaints about clones. It's not like they're keeping your favorite character (which will likely never get in) out of the game.

I think they're also necessary since they don't require as much effort into creating a character and using much less data.

 

[Fell God]

I think they're also necessary since they don't require as much effort into creating a character and using much less data.

A large part of implementing a new character is animating their attacks, aside from maybe making their model look good, I'd say is the most time consuming thing. With 90% of a character's animations copied over, you've essentially gotten the vast majority of the work completed, taunts, idles, and victory animations don't take nearly as much time as the moves. This is why Sakurai sees clones as, I believe his words were "a free dessert at the end of your meal" rather than something you're paying for. Plus, just about every clone we have would never have gotten in as anything but a clone.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

A large part of implementing a new character is animating their attacks, aside from maybe making their model look good, I'd say is the most time consuming thing. With 90% of a character's animations copied over, you've essentially gotten the vast majority of the work completed, taunts, idles, and victory animations don't take nearly as much time as the moves. This is why Sakurai sees clones as, I believe his words were "a free dessert at the end of your meal" rather than something you're paying for. Plus, just about every clone we have would never have gotten in as anything but a clone.

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

[SmashBro99]

What I don't understand? Complaints about clones. It's not like they're keeping your favorite character (which will likely never get in) out of the game.

I think the idea of clones is amazing. Characters that fight the same way just getting reskinned, more characters and less work, what's not to love?

However when I think of what they did to Ganondorf, giving him the moveset of a race car driver, who has a made up moveset because we never saw him fight, and so many games later we still have some lingering parts of it, well that's pretty disgusting.

Daisy is a great example of a good echo fighter, we don't see her fight a whole lot in the Mario series, so her getting Peach's moveset is totally fine. I haven't played Castlevania, so I cant comment on Richter, but Sakurai said they both borrow eachothers moves, so I think that's pretty cool.

But then you are gonna put Chrom who has potential for a great moveset as an echo of Roy, and give him some Ike too, that's just lazy and I don't see how anyone could see it as not. They clearly just added him because he is popular, but ignored putting any real work into him, if I was a fan of Chrom, I'd be let down that they finally put him in and half assed it.

I guess if it were up to me, we'd have unique fighters or alts (Alph, Koopalings), and no bull**** clones, semi clones or echos.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I think they're also necessary since they don't require as much effort into creating a character and using much less data.

It's also good because it mean certain characters that wouldn't have made it otherwise(,,) get a free pass.

 

[Fell God]

I think the idea of clones is amazing. Characters that fight the same way just getting reskinned, more characters and less work, what's not to love?

However when I think of what they did to Ganondorf, giving him the moveset of a race car driver, who has a made up moveset because we never saw him fight, and so many games later we still have some lingering parts of it, well that's pretty disgusting.

Daisy is a great example of a good echo fighter, we don't see her fight a whole lot in the Mario series, so her getting Peach's moveset is totally fine. I haven't played Castlevania, so I cant comment on Richter, but Sakurai said they both borrow eachothers moves, so I think that's pretty cool.

But then you are gonna put Chrom who has potential for a great moveset as an echo of Roy, and give him some Ike too, that's just lazy and I don't see how anyone could see it as not. They clearly just added him because he is popular, but ignored putting any real work into him, if I was a fan of Chrom, I'd be let down that they finally put him in and half ***** it.

I guess if it were up to me, we'd have unique fighters or alts (Alph, Koopalings), and no bull**** clones, semi clones or echos.

I partially agree. I think, in addition to his Smash attacks, they could've given Ganondorf more to separate him from Falcon without ruining how he feels for longtime Ganondorf players (myself included!) such as perhaps, for example, using dark magic and waving it above his head for his up air. Similar hitboxes so as not to alienate Ganondorfs, but in a more canonical way. I fully agree with your comments about Daisy and Richter though. As for Chrom, I'm just happy he's in at all. Yes, he's a clone of the literal worst FE character we have, but Roy's playstyle does suit him, seeing as how he and Lucina are both descendants of Marth, it makes sense for Chrom to essentially use a more aggressive and reckless version of Marth's fighting style. He would've been better (probably) as a unique fighter, but that wouldn't have been possible for Ultimate.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Why Bowser and Donkey Kong don't have their voices from the root franchises, but Bowser Jr and Diddy Kong (mostly Bowser Jr) do

Last I've checked, Diddy doesn't use any of his Mario spin-off voice clips in the Super Smash Bros. series. And the biggest sense of irony is that Diddy actually received an actual voice portrayal before Donkey Kong, all thanks to Diddy Kong Racing.

 

[JadeRock 5599]

Only fans of the clone/semi clone's respective series are ok with it.

They try to make it sound like it was a good idea and beneficial for Smash.

They're wrong.

I'd rather have them as a clone than not playable at all.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

You are right, they don't take zero effort. Probably about 5-10 hours, done during some guy's lunch break.

I would love for you to prove that.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I know that I'll get a lot of hate for this, but...
Why do people accept and defend the quantity over quality approach.

I don't care if echoes take 10 minutes to be developed.
If the roster had a more limited amount of characters without the unnecessary ones, there would have been more resources avaliable, that could have been used to improve the actual characters and the game itself.

Also, it would be better for the identity of the franchise, as a celebration of Nintendo's history and not as a sort of MUGEN where everyone is playable for the sake of it.
If we had less characters but every character was developed with more effort and made unique, then there would be a chance to have features such as character-specific minigames like Board the Platform and Break the Target, something that you can't have with more than 70 characters in the game.

I prefer a better game with less content than a bigger game with tons rehashed and low effort content.

People keep saying that they want more characters, but the problem is that having too many characters will only make the balancing of the game harder (echoes count too, since they're balanced differently!), and anyway competitive players will only use like 10 characters of the 70 in the roster (the high tiers).
Casual gamers don't even care, they don't care if Doctor Mario from that NES game is in the game as a fighter or as a costume, they see Mario and that's it... if you remove Dr. Mario, you don't even need to ask "why there are 2 Marios?".
None of the Mario Kart games ever had 70 characters, and I have never seen a casual gamer complaining that the game has too few choices.

Imo they should add characters to Smash only if they have some historical value to Nintendo and if they bring something original gameplay-wise; else, you can add them as costumes, so you don't even need additional balancing. also I have nothing agains cuts and I think some franchises would benefit of them, such as Pokèmon (cut the Pokèmons from past generations who aren't relevant anymore and replace them with new ones); as long as you don't cut the iconic ones such as Mewtwo... I wouldn't mind if they cut Jigglypuff and Greninja to add a couple of more recent ones.

Players should adapt more to changes and Sakurai should be less conservative. I wouldn't mind if a new smash doesn't add anyone but instead revampes the actual characters to have more accurate and updated movesets, even if they turn out to play nothing like their previous version.
I'm not saying that I don't want newcomers, I have my favorites too and support them, but I think that the quality of the game should come first.

This doesn't even apply only to playable characters... Items (I wouldn't mind having only 7 or 10 items in total but very well balanced and more developed), Music (what's the point of having all those tracks? Just make 1 track for each stage and try to make it the best to represent that specific stage), Achievements (go through the hell and ruin your eyes, nervous system, and body forever just to get all those Mii hats and 100% the game... just no), game modes (what's the point of having Smash Tour if it sucks? Just to have an additional mode in the game? As far as I know NOBODY liked it, just wasted development time and resources), and so on.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I'd rather have them as a clone than not playable at all.

True. Bit I'd rather have an original moveset than a clone.

ECHOS DON'T TAKE UP A FIGHTER SLOT, if dark pit was not in then we have one less choice not another fighter

I. Said. That.
I'm talking about Semi clones.

 

[TheBean]

Isn't DK above Kirby in terms of sales? Kirby's way above the other two though.

1. No
2. Even if it was Kirby has a larger pool of fighters to choose from.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

I. Said. That.
I'm talking about Semi clones.

Bruh even then semi-clones take considerably less time than full characters. Like, it's fine you have this extreme hatred towards clones for whatever reason, but no reason to say that they were an objectively bad idea. The rebranding of echo fighters clearly shows you are dead wrong in that regard.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Bruh even then semi-clones take considerably less time than full characters. Like, it's fine you have this extreme hatred towards clones for whatever reason, but no reason to say that they were an objectively bad idea. The rebranding of echo fighters clearly shows you are dead wrong in that regard.

I never mentioned echo fighters once. Where are you getting that from?
Semi clones aren't bad ideas, the issue is that they could have made their movesets better but they didn't.

 

[Billybae10K]

1. No
2. Even if it was Kirby has a larger pool of fighters to choose from.

Donkey Kong - 56.04 Million Sales.
Kirby - 35.78 Million Sales.

Donkey Kong is a much larger franchise than Kirby in terms of Nintendo's History and in terms of success for the company. I'd love a new Kirby rep myself, but you can't say that Kirby sells more than Donkey Kong as that's just not true.

 

[pupNapoleon]

who doesn't actually play like in Awakening despite cosplaying as him in it. No, her playing like Marth isn't simply justified because she disguised herself as him once. That's reaching.

I thought her mistaken identity as Marth was a huge point of the plot?

 

[Idon]

I thought her mistaken identity as Marth was a huge point of the plot?

What do you mean mistaken identity?

Marth's dead. He's been dead for hundreds of years. It'd be pretty hard to mistake her as the real Marth when he's a historical figure.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I thought her mistaken identity as Marth was a huge point of the plot?

It's been a hot minute since I played Awakening but I recall her identity is revealed pretty fast. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm remembering wrong.

Seemed to play a bigger point in the marketing for Awakening than the plot itself if memory serves. As in 'Yo Smash fans, Marth is in this! Pick it up!'

 

[Just a random scrub]

I would love for you to prove that.

R....Really?

You cannot be ****ing serious right now. It's long since been proven. You seriously glossed over the numerous posts where Sakurai describes how little time they take? At this point, it seems you're just ignoring everything that proves your argument factually wrong.

Whatever, as me and GunBlaze have already stated, even all 6 Melee clones, let alone echos which take far less effort, do NOT equal one unique fighter. This is coming straight from Sakurai's mouth, so this is a fact.

Here's the post you managed to ignore completely:

Did you ignore the posts on this page about it? Sakurai has cleary gone on record to state echos =/= full characters.

Hell, even the people saying the Melee clones = 1 newcomer are mistaken. The real truth is, cutting all 6 Melee clones WOULDN'T have resulted in a fully unique character, according to Sakurai himself.



So, All 6 of the Melee clones do NOT equal one fully unique fighter, we wouldn't have gotten **** if they weren't included. And the echos are far closer to their base than the Melee clones and take much less effort. So suggesting that the 5 echos we've seen so far would result in a fully unique newcomer is grossly untrue.

And here's GunBlaze's post, just to ensure you get the picture:

“If I could add one or two more characters, then [Wario] could have gotten in. Of all the characters I discarded, [he’s] ranked near the top.

However, even if I didn’t work on several clone characters he wouldn’t have gotten in.

Even if I deleted characters from before (Jigglypuff, Luigi) he wouldn’t have gotten in.

You might think it’s impossible that even if we delete one character in development that it couldn’t be replaced with another character….

I would have needed to get rid of both Marth and Roy or Mewtwo in order for Wario to get in"

From "Clone Characters in Smash Bros.: Truths and Misconceptions - Source Gaming"

Al-kīmiyā' Even tagging you here so you have no excuse to ignore this again.

So, you'd love us to prove it? Well, I would love you to acknowledge the stuff that directly contradicts the crap you're spewing from your mouth.

 

[pupNapoleon]

What do you mean mistaken identity?

Marth's dead. He's been dead for hundreds of years. It'd be pretty hard to mistake her as the real Marth when he's a historical figure.

I thought her ability to be confused in any way with Marth, the point of the mask as I understood it, was founded.
Arguing these two should not be echoes is arguing echoes should not exist at all.

 

[Turnips and Daisies.]

Bruh even then semi-clones take considerably less time than full characters. Like, it's fine you have this extreme hatred towards clones for whatever reason, but no reason to say that they were an objectively bad idea. The rebranding of echo fighters clearly shows you are dead wrong in that regard.

That might not be true anymore. Semi clones like Dr Mario need full balancing, and that takes a LOT of time.

In Melee, it was easier because there weren’t as many characters as there are now. Now adding even one non-echo drastically increases balancing workload because you need to test the character against 60+ others, and adjust.

 

[GunBlaze]

Thanks, Just a random scrub

 

[Kevandre]

Sorry IsmaR

I never found the Brawl Dojo's explanation of the Negative Zone to be sufficient. I feel like Sakurai just dropped some acid and was like "yeah screw it"

 

[IsmaR]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...iveZone.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080216192018

Though it seems to be broken, please avoid image-only posts.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Donkey Kong - 56.04 Million Sales.
Kirby - 35.78 Million Sales.

Donkey Kong is a much larger franchise than Kirby in terms of Nintendo's History and in terms of success for the company. I'd love a new Kirby rep myself, but you can't say that Kirby sells more than Donkey Kong as that's just not true.

Donkey Kong's big sales numbers come form when Rare still managed it. I' probably should have pointed this out, but Nintendo's management of DK just in't what Rare's was. Now Kirby is better. Saying G&W is one of Nintendo's best would be a huge lie, but when it was a thing many years ago it sold like hot cakes.

 

[Xigger]

If being obscure outside of Japan is a factor for a character to NOT become playable in Smash, what about Marth and Roy?
Don't get me wrong; I realize Fire Emblem was popular in Japan at that time. But they added Roy, which was for advertising his game that never saw release in the West. They were even going to be cut in the Western version of Melee before they were kept due to popular demand I believe. And it was a great move because it opened Fire Emblem to the West and is now one of Nintendo's successful series worldwide.
What I don't get is this; Marth and Roy proved that Japan only characters can work, and could boost their popularity worldwide. Yet, why is Sakurai still allergic to adding Japan only obscure characters? Especially in this time and age where a quick internet search will help you learn about all those obscure Japan only series? It's not 2001 anymore. The fact that he didn't add Takamaru in Smash 4 due to obscurity, yet he tested the water with Marth and Roy, screams hypocrisy to me.

If memory serves, Roy was added at the request of the Fire Emblem development team, where Sakurai was actually gunning for Eliwood, from the then-latest Fire Emblem. While Sakurai may have the "absolute say in the roster", the man still respects his fellow game developers.

As for Takamaru, he still faces the same struggles that any region-centric, decades-old, or single-release character does. They almost always lose to more popular or more relevant characters.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

R....Really?

You cannot be ****ing serious right now. It's long since been proven. You seriously glossed over the numerous posts where Sakurai describes how little time they take? At this point, it seems you're just ignoring everything that proves your argument factually wrong.

Whatever, as me and GunBlaze have already stated, even all 6 Melee clones, let alone echos which take far less effort, do NOT equal one unique fighter. This is coming straight from Sakurai's mouth, so this is a fact.

Here's the post you managed to ignore completely:



And here's GunBlaze's post, just to ensure you get the picture:




Al-kīmiyā' Even tagging you here so you have no excuse to ignore this again.

So, you'd love us to prove it? Well, I would love you to acknowledge the stuff that directly contradicts the crap you're spewing from your mouth.

Did you miss the "5-10 hours" part? I find it extremely unlikely that creating a costume, let alone a model, and making sure all the animations work with it, takes so little time.

 

[Jasper the Tourist]

I know that I'll get a lot of hate for this, but...
Why do people accept and defend the quantity over quality approach.

I don't care if echoes take 10 minutes to be developed.
If the roster had a more limited amount of characters without the unnecessary ones, there would have been more resources avaliable, that could have been used to improve the actual characters and the game itself.

Also, it would be better for the identity of the franchise, as a celebration of Nintendo's history and not as a sort of MUGEN where everyone is playable for the sake of it.
If we had less characters but every character was developed with more effort and made unique, then there would be a chance to have features such as character-specific minigames like Board the Platform and Break the Target, something that you can't have with more than 70 characters in the game.

I prefer a better game with less content than a bigger game with tons rehashed and low effort content.

People keep saying that they want more characters, but the problem is that having too many characters will only make the balancing of the game harder (echoes count too, since they're balanced differently!), and anyway competitive players will only use like 10 characters of the 70 in the roster (the high tiers).
Casual gamers don't even care, they don't care if Doctor Mario from that NES game is in the game as a fighter or as a costume, they see Mario and that's it... if you remove Dr. Mario, you don't even need to ask "why there are 2 Marios?".
None of the Mario Kart games ever had 70 characters, and I have never seen a casual gamer complaining that the game has too few choices.

Imo they should add characters to Smash only if they have some historical value to Nintendo and if they bring something original gameplay-wise; else, you can add them as costumes, so you don't even need additional balancing. also I have nothing agains cuts and I think some franchises would benefit of them, such as Pokèmon (cut the Pokèmons from past generations who aren't relevant anymore and replace them with new ones); as long as you don't cut the iconic ones such as Mewtwo... I wouldn't mind if they cut Jigglypuff and Greninja to add a couple of more recent ones.

Players should adapt more to changes and Sakurai should be less conservative. I wouldn't mind if a new smash doesn't add anyone but instead revampes the actual characters to have more accurate and updated movesets, even if they turn out to play nothing like their previous version.
I'm not saying that I don't want newcomers, I have my favorites too and support them, but I think that the quality of the game should come first.

This doesn't even apply only to playable characters... Items (I wouldn't mind having only 7 or 10 items in total but very well balanced and more developed), Music (what's the point of having all those tracks? Just make 1 track for each stage and try to make it the best to represent that specific stage), Achievements (go through the hell and ruin your eyes, nervous system, and body forever just to get all those Mii hats and 100% the game... just no), game modes (what's the point of having Smash Tour if it sucks? Just to have an additional mode in the game? As far as I know NOBODY liked it, just wasted development time and resources), and so on.

I absolutely agree. Although as a music guy, I do enjoy the variety there.

 

[Tbro]

Why people still care about Melee.

Because it's fun and people like fun games

 

[staindgrey]

During pre-relase, the community's utter insatiability, or just plain inability to be satisfied.

Post-release, why costumes aren't so much bigger of a thing. How hard is it to add sunglasses to Fox and call him James McCloud?

 

[Idon]

If memory serves, Roy was added at the request of the Fire Emblem development team, where Sakurai was actually gunning for Eliwood, from the then-latest Fire Emblem. While Sakurai may have the "absolute say in the roster", the man still respects his fellow game developers.

As for Takamaru, he still faces the same struggles that any region-centric, decades-old, or single-release character does. They almost always lose to more popular or more relevant characters.

Where are you getting your sources, Eliwood's game came out 2 years after Melee's release and 1 year after Roy's real game. I very much doubt Sakurai wanted a character that didn't exist until 2 years in the future.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Donkey Kong's big sales numbers come form when Rare still managed it. I' probably should have pointed this out, but Nintendo's management of DK just in't what Rare's was. Now Kirby is better. Saying G&W is one of Nintendo's best would be a huge lie, but when it was a thing many years ago it sold like hot cakes.

I mean I KNOW it's VGChartz, but if we compare total sales between the DK and Kirby game on each of the previous consoles POST Rare;

I think we can agree that isn't quite true. Even on the abysmal selling Wii U, DK had the advantage and between the Wii titles DK blew Kirby out of the water in terms of sales. Granted the Kirby game came out a year after DK's both times, but Donkey Kong Country Returns clearly did better than Kirby Return to Dreamland.

Maybe Star Allies will do better than the Tropical Freeze port, but we'll have to wait for more concrete numbers.

 

[Xigger]

Where are you getting your sources, Eliwood's game came out 2 years after Melee's release and 1 year after Roy's real game. I very much doubt Sakurai wanted a character that didn't exist until 2 years in the future.

I feel like a debate in a thread about "just not getting it" seems counterintuitive, but...

All right, my memory didn't serve, I mixed it up, the original source was for Leif instead of Roy, and is more speculation than fact. I didn't mean to parade it as an absolute fact, and I did make that clear.

But for doubting Sakurai wanting characters that didn't exist, there ARE confirmed sources from the man himself. So let's call it a day on the debate. (Specifically confirmed for Greninja, You could make an argument for Corrin, but I'd rather not debate)

ND: By the way, when deciding on which characters to use, are you looking into unreleased new games?
MS: At the very beginning I did that. This time our project-proposal is dated May 2012, at that time all characters were decided already. Then as production moves on we will say “We won’t put that character in” and cut out low-priority-characters.

 

[FirestormNeos]

I mean I KNOW it's VGChartz, but if we compare total sales between the DK and Kirby game on each of the previous consoles POST Rare;

View attachment 166505

I think we can agree that isn't quite true. Even on the abysmal selling Wii U, DK had the advantage and between the Wii titles DK blew Kirby out of the water in terms of sales. Granted the Kirby game came out a year after DK's both times, but Donkey Kong Country Returns clearly did better than Kirby Return to Dreamland.

Maybe Star Allies will do better than the Tropical Freeze port, but we'll have to wait for more concrete numbers.

it's a port. of course Star Allies is going to beat it in sales.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Why does Kirby only have 3 fighters.
It's way more popular than FE, DK, and Kid Icarus

Cause Sakurai doesn’t want to be seen as bias towards his creation or something similar to that

Maybe this isn't directly Smash related... but loosely. I mean, a lot of the fans treat Smash like it's a glorified commercial for other Nintendo games.

I want to know why Nintendo capitalizes on the publicity some characters receive in Smash so infrequently. Like, yeah we got Fire Emblem Localized and a new Kid Icarus thanks to Smash. But other than that, Smash doesn't seem to be the promotional platform that everyone makes it out to be.

I don't mean "put newest character in Smash so people buy game", because that would be horrible. No, what I mean is using older characters made popular again thanks to Smash bros appearances in a new game. Nintendo is still sitting on the Ice Climbers, and Captain Falcon, and other characters that are, at this point, just Smash Bros. mascots now.

tbf, Ice Climbers not getting a new game isn’t a surprise, but F-Zero not having a new game in a long time is definitely a problem

 

[FooltheFlames]

I don't get why super popular and continuously highly requested characters like Waluigi, Ashley, Bomberman, Midna, and Zero are trapped as Assist Trophies while characters almost no one asked for like Wii Fit, Dark Pit, Dark Samus, Ritcher, and Doctor Mario are playable instead.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't get why super popular and continuously highly requested characters like Waluigi, Ashley, Bomberman, Midna, and Zero are trapped as Assist Trophies while characters almost no one asked for like Wii Fit, Dark Pit, Dark Samus, Ritcher, and Doctor Mario are playable instead.

Sakurai did mention that Dark Samus was a popular request alongside Chrom.