• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

What if custom controls were possible?

If custom controls were possible for Melee would you use it? Should tournaments allow it?

  • Yes I would and I think tournaments should allow it.

    Votes: 19 44.2%
  • Yes I would, but I don't think tournaments should allow it.

    Votes: 5 11.6%
  • No I wouldn't, but I think tournaments should allow it.

    Votes: 5 11.6%
  • No I wouldn't and I don't think tournaments should allow it.

    Votes: 14 32.6%

  • Total voters
    43

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
If it was possible to have custom controls would you change your control layout? Also, if such a thing was possible, should tournaments allow it?


Follow up questions:
  1. If you answered yes to the first question, how would you layout your controls and why?
  2. For either answer to the second question could you elaborate why?
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
All I would do is disable tap jump so pivot uptilt would be easy (I'm working on learning it but it's so freaking hard to do).

However I think we've gone so long without changing the game that we should just leave it the way it is. On top of that, there's no way to do this without modding either the controller or the game and I think having vanilla discs and minimally modded controllers is the way to go.
 

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
All I would do is disable tap jump so pivot uptilt would be easy (I'm working on learning it but it's so freaking hard to do).

However I think we've gone so long without changing the game that we should just leave it the way it is. On top of that, there's no way to do this without modding either the controller or the game and I think having vanilla discs and minimally modded controllers is the way to go.
What if it was a device like a converter, except instead of converting the controller signal it remapped the buttons?
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
What if it was a device like a converter, except instead of converting the controller signal it remapped the buttons?
Well that's not modding the controller directly but it's still modding the controller input so it falls under the same category in my mind. For example you can make controllers that do this without another converter.
 
Last edited:

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
Well that's not modding the controller directly but it's still modding the controller input so it falls under the same category in my mind. For example you can make controllers that do this without another converter.
True, but modding a controller is a semi permanent and not very easy task for the average player, something that is basically plug and play and readily available to everyone is way more beneficial and also makes the question of tournament use different because not everyone can or is willing to mod their controller so is it far to allow them to be used at tournaments, vs a converter/device that allows them to do it and could be purchased by anyone so it easier to say it is fair game in tournaments.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Good Lord the community is changing. This should never be allowed imo. We already "allow" notches for people who have trouble being accurate with the sticks (where the lack of clear-cut legality allows for any and all modifications to the octagon gate/shaft of the control stick... Now cater to those who either have slow fingers or don't feel comfortable with the 14+ year standard? Jeez. If you make the game easier, you've changed the game. It wouldn't be the same version of melee anymore. Risk vs reward in countless scenarios would be altered. Not that this is a good comparison, but I truly believe turbo buttons would help someone much less than this, and turbo is banned. Yes, I know turbo performs inputs for you, and this wouldn't, but damn... Might as well change the location of the buttons altogether to make nearly all inputs easier. Maybe alter the sticks' sensitivity so that smash turns requires 1/4 the stick movement? Lol. There are lots of ways to make you more technically capable and consistent instead of practicing, I just don't agree with many of them.

Bring on the hate lol.

:denzel:
 

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
Good Lord the community is changing. This should never be allowed imo. We already "allow" notches for people who have trouble being accurate with the sticks (where the lack of clear-cut legality allows for any and all modifications to the octagon gate/shaft of the control stick... Now cater to those who either have slow fingers or don't feel comfortable with the 14+ year standard? Jeez. If you make the game easier, you've changed the game. It wouldn't be the same version of melee anymore. Risk vs reward in countless scenarios would be altered. Not that this is a good comparison, but I truly believe turbo buttons would help someone much less than this, and turbo is banned. Yes, I know turbo performs inputs for you, and this wouldn't, but damn... Might as well change the location of the buttons altogether to make nearly all inputs easier. Maybe alter the sticks' sensitivity so that smash turns requires 1/4 the stick movement? Lol. There are lots of ways to make you more technically capable and consistent instead of practicing, I just don't agree with many of them.

Bring on the hate lol.

:denzel:
Well ideally you could create a controller with a layout the way you like it, but that would cost a lot of time and money. Should such a controller be allowed in a tournament? If it has no extra buttons or turbo why not? I feel like people who practiced with a regular control scheme will feel cheated somehow, but I feel people are only looking at this as "easy tech skill" and not with the thought of potentially pushing the game even further or even the potential hand health benefits a better control scheme would create. Changing the controls does not change the game, it changes how the game is played and that has always been mostly with the player, if a player can find an easier way to play the game, then why should they not be able to do that so long as it doesn't allow them to do things other players could not and is possible for everyone to do so no one person has a sole advantage?
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
I do think this would be great for disabled smashers.

I don't want to go to far into a debate, I think stating my opinion once is fine. Just wanted to point out that it would indeed change the game itself, as well as the 14+ year standard.
 
Last edited:

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
I do think this would be great for disabled smashers.

I don't want to go to far into a debate, I think stating my opinion once is fine. Just wanted to point out that it would indeed change the game itself, as well as the 14+ year standard.
I'm still not understanding how the game itself would be changed? Maybe the meta, but that has always been a possibility I mean just look at that the past 14+ years. Also I don't get the whole we've done it this way for years so its the best mentality, I feel in general that thought process stagnates innovation. Btw I am not attacking or anything I value your opinion I am just trying to get more info from to observe from all perspective including yours.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Ok, one last post. Imo if you change how a game is played, make the game easier to play, and alter the risk vs reward dynamic of executing technical inputs in countless situations, you've changed the game. Some may see it as the same version but I certainly wouldn't.
 

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
Ok, one last post. Imo if you change how a game is played, make the game easier to play, and alter the risk vs reward dynamic of executing technical inputs in countless situations, you've changed the game. Some may see it as the same version but I certainly wouldn't.
See for me if a game is changed then part of its code has changed, or mechanics of the game have changed. To me allowing other controls does not change the game especially if it is done outside of the system itself. If something like 20XX TE pulls off being able to change controls great, even better would be something to connect your controller to that does the remapping. This may change how the game is played, i.e. the meta, but it cannot change the mechanics of the game, in fact it may even help us discover new mechanics in the game that we didn't know about.
I don't want stuff like bidou in melee though
Why? I'm just curious why people are so against change? Bidou could be a great thing for Smash 4. I mean that's like saying "I don't want new tech that might advance the meta".
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Turbo buttons would be change, would help people less than customized controls, and is banned. Some people just draw the line differently because we're talking about competition. Old school players see the standard controllers more as a challenge they've enjoyed conquering; some new school players see it as a nuisance and want to make things easier instead of practicing. For casual play, change is fine. Pretty awesome actually. But you'd be changing the game to allow people to not overcome the same challenges as everyone else.

Ugh. I posted again.
 

HeavyLobster1120

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
29
See for me if a game is changed then part of its code has changed, or mechanics of the game have changed. To me allowing other controls does not change the game especially if it is done outside of the system itself. If something like 20XX TE pulls off being able to change controls great, even better would be something to connect your controller to that does the remapping. This may change how the game is played, i.e. the meta, but it cannot change the mechanics of the game, in fact it may even help us discover new mechanics in the game that we didn't know about.

Why? I'm just curious why people are so against change? Bidou could be a great thing for Smash 4. I mean that's like saying "I don't want new tech that might advance the meta".
Because then I'll have to go to the control screen and edit the controls every time
 

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
Turbo buttons would be change, would help people less than customized controls, and is banned. Some people just draw the line differently because we're talking about competition. Old school players see the standard controllers more as a challenge they've enjoyed conquering; some new school players see it as a nuisance and want to make things easier instead of practicing. For casual play, change is fine. Pretty awesome actually. But you'd be changing the game to allow people to not overcome the same challenges as everyone else.

Ugh. I posted again.
Turbo Buttons could help L-cancel every time no matter how they block/move to mess you up which would be a huge help, this would require the Z button though I believe since it could mess up your tech window. Other than that I don't even see how else Turbo buttons would benefit a game like smash, but I might have missed others. Adding the ability to change the controls doesn't take away from people who use standard controls and mastered them. They can still continue to use standard controls its not like you would be forced to use custom controls. Again you keep saying it would change the game, but this isn't true the game is still the same, how its played is. Why force everyone to learn standard controls that could mess up your hands or due to physical constraints isn't possible for some people?

Your argument sounds more like "It's unfair because I trained the standard way and worked hard for my tech skill", this is kinda unwarranted really because they are still the better players because they know when/how to use the tech and not just how to do it. Different controls will not make reading DI better, will not make properly edge guarding better, and it will not help you learn matchups. Without actually trying it we have no idea if it would even lead to "ez tech skill". Every smash game from Melee on has had the ability to change controls I don't see why this would cause a problem for Melee.
Because then I'll have to go to the control screen and edit the controls every time
This is a good point and something I have thought of, from a tournament point of view this huge time sink that could be avoided if you could simply change controls on the character select ala Skullgirls. If this took the form of a feature of something like 20XX TE I would hope it would get the same treatment as rumble did where you could change controls from the character select or at least access a menu from there and then be returned there once finished. If this were a device that was connected outside the system ideally you could just plug in play. The only issue with this is since buttons are remapped you must now navigate the entire game and not just the match using these controls, which could take some getting used to, but ultimate wouldn't be terrible.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
"Unfair" is actually something you're trying to avoid if you're not a casual player. You're also forgetting that you're changing the 14+ year standard. Would putting on a full body suit as a controller and stepping into a virtual reality simulator in order to control your character not change the game, just because the rules are the same?

If all of a sudden, every player was handed the ability to dunk from the free throw line in the NBA (they didn't have to practice, it was instantly easier), I would say the game has changed (and so would every announcer). You're saying it's the same game because the rules didn't change. It looks like you can't quite grasp what I'm talking about, but that's ok.

Changing the controls to your specific liking is taking a shortcut. For some people, it can take years to master the standard controls. Old school players dealt with this challenge. Some new school players just like this don't want to put the time into dealing with this challenge, and want to make it much easier instead. If you do not see a problem with that from a competitive standpoint, you aren't concerned with competition.

It's too bad nowadays people are trying to find ways around practicing. They see it solely as innovation too, which is laughable (we all know the real reason why people put notches for perfect wavedashes, DI, recovery angles and angled fsmashes... It's to make them easier because they aren't satisfied with their current success rate of executing them properly.... Custom controls is no different... Just people trying to make melee easier). Melee is a technically demanding game. If someone doesn't like that, I'd personally recommend playing another game over trying to make melee easier to play.

Not posting anymore, have the last word all you want.
 
Last edited:

HeavyLobster1120

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
29
Turbo Buttons could help L-cancel every time no matter how they block/move to mess you up which would be a huge help, this would require the Z button though I believe since it could mess up your tech window. Other than that I don't even see how else Turbo buttons would benefit a game like smash, but I might have missed others. Adding the ability to change the controls doesn't take away from people who use standard controls and mastered them. They can still continue to use standard controls its not like you would be forced to use custom controls. Again you keep saying it would change the game, but this isn't true the game is still the same, how its played is. Why force everyone to learn standard controls that could mess up your hands or due to physical constraints isn't possible for some people?

Your argument sounds more like "It's unfair because I trained the standard way and worked hard for my tech skill", this is kinda unwarranted really because they are still the better players because they know when/how to use the tech and not just how to do it. Different controls will not make reading DI better, will not make properly edge guarding better, and it will not help you learn matchups. Without actually trying it we have no idea if it would even lead to "ez tech skill". Every smash game from Melee on has had the ability to change controls I don't see why this would cause a problem for Melee.

This is a good point and something I have thought of, from a tournament point of view this huge time sink that could be avoided if you could simply change controls on the character select ala Skullgirls. If this took the form of a feature of something like 20XX TE I would hope it would get the same treatment as rumble did where you could change controls from the character select or at least access a menu from there and then be returned there once finished. If this were a device that was connected outside the system ideally you could just plug in play. The only issue with this is since buttons are remapped you must now navigate the entire game and not just the match using these controls, which could take some getting used to, but ultimate wouldn't be terrible.
It's mostly that I'm afraid of change and I like the c stick for reverse moves and stuff
 

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
"Unfair" is actually something you're trying to avoid if you're not a casual player. You're also forgetting that you're changing the 14+ year standard. Would putting on a full body suit as a controller and stepping into a virtual reality simulator in order to control your character not change the game, just because the rules are the same?
Not sure I am getting what your trying saying about "unfair". If your saying that competitive players avoid being unfair I would have to severely disagree with you. If your saying that competitive players wouldn't say that something is unfair then I don't see what the opposition to custom controls would be. Melee has evolved in many ways over the last few decades, stages were banned, wobbling was banned, then unbanned. Standards change and there is nothing wrong with that especially since that helps games grow. To answer your question about a full body suit as a controller, no it wouldn't change the game. In fact it would make my point, which is the player is still only capable of doing what is possible in the game, the only difference is the person is now only limited by their physical abilities. Imagine if everyone had to play the game this way only? No one who wasn't physically fit would be able to play at higher levels.

If all of a sudden, every player was handed the ability to dunk from the free throw line in the NBA (they didn't have to practice, it was instantly easier), I would say the game has changed (and so would every announcer). You're saying it's the same game because the rules didn't change. It looks like you can't quite grasp what I'm talking about, but that's ok.
I don't think this analogy fits really. Not many player can even dunk from the free throw line to begin with let alone mid game and there are a ton of variables that dictate who can even do that. Custom controls are not going to give players abilities that no one else has or is capable of.

Changing the controls to your specific liking is taking a shortcut. For some people, it can take years to master the standard controls. Old school players dealt with this challenge. Some new school players just like this don't want to put the time into dealing with this challenge, and want to make it much easier instead. If you do not see a problem with that from a competitive standpoint, you aren't concerned with competition.
You still need to practice doing tech with that button layout and practice the proper timing for the inputs. We are talking about remapped buttons, not macros. People are not going to instantly do better at tournament just because they have a different control layout, like I said before there are so many more things a player needs to learn to be good at to become a pro player. Just because old school players didn't have the option to change their controller before shouldn't dictate if controls can change now especially if everyone can use it. Again this sounds a lot like "its unfair to old school players because they didn't the option when they learned". Well with this they have the option now. You seem to be under the impression that custom controls is a shortcut to being a better player, I personally think it facilitates the process of becoming a better player, but they still need to put the same work as everyone else to become the best.


It's too bad nowadays people are trying to find ways around practicing. They see it solely as innovation too, which is laughable (we all know the real reason why people put notches for perfect wavedashes, DI, recovery angles and angled fsmashes... It's to make them easier because they aren't satisfied with their current success rate of executing them properly.... Custom controls is no different... Just people trying to make melee easier). Melee is a technically demanding game. If someone doesn't like that, I'd personally recommend playing another game over trying to make melee easier to play.
I don't agree that customer controls are the same as modifying a controller. Custom controls could make inputs for certain tech closer and therefore more efficient for player, but the player must still learn the timing for the inputs and they do not make any of the tech easier to do by guiding the player like the notched controller does. This idea that people with custom controls are trying avoid practicing is a misconception IMO. They are trying to find ways to play the game that fits best with them. Not everyone likes the standard controls, not everyone likes rumble, not everyone likes tap jump. People's individuality is what makes the game interesting to watch. Limiting someone to standard controls when they could potentially do better with a control scheme they are familiar with from say another smash game, or just one they feel more comfortable with is just limiting there personality from showing in the game, not broken tech skill.

Not posting anymore, have the last word all you want.
Awww, but it was fun debating with you :D. I hope this was clear with my posts. I am not trying to argue with you, at least not in a hostile way, this was always purely a debate and an insight into other peoples perspective. I respect your opinion fully, I just of course don't agree with it :D.
It's mostly that I'm afraid of change and I like the c stick for reverse moves and stuff
I get that, everyone is afraid of change, heck I just graduated and I am terrified of what my life is going to be like when I get a job. The thing is its inevitable and rarely a bad thing. Change is how we grow as people and if we all stayed the same forever we would be stagnate and boring. I am not sure what you mean by the last part of your sentence, are you saying you would or wouldn't change the c-stick?
 
Last edited:

Oh Bee

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
1
I don't want stuff like bidou in melee though
What if things like that made the game faster/more exciting/drew in a larger crowd etc.. ? If it isn't harmful to the growth for the game I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed. Me, personally, I'd only turn off tap jump but that's just me.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Lol... Bakuryu Bakuryu I told you I'm not responding anymore. A lot of what I'm saying is going way, way over your head. I doubt you'd understand even if I explained it further anyway. Peace
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
Not many people can dunk from the free throw line but no one can pivot up tilt either. If we remove the difficulty of melee all of a sudden that screws up the risk reward factor of nearly every decision, and everyone would sooner or later have to play Fox as his main barrier would be effectively removed.

Melee has been proven to have a well balanced meta with the native controls and almost no one complains unless they come from smash 4 where you can customize things more.
 

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
What if things like that made the game faster/more exciting/drew in a larger crowd etc.. ? If it isn't harmful to the growth for the game I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed. Me, personally, I'd only turn off tap jump but that's just me.
This is my point, but like HeavyLobster1120 HeavyLobster1120 said some people are just afraid of change.
Lol... Bakuryu Bakuryu I told you I'm not responding anymore. A lot of what I'm saying is going way, way over your head. I doubt you'd understand even if I explained it further anyway. Peace
I know what you said, and technically each time you've said it you have responded in one form or another :D. Nothing is going over my head I just don't agree with what you are saying and have explained why each time. Mind you everything we are saying is complete theory. There is currently no evidence to suggestion one side or the other is right, but I think we owe it to ourselves to try because if we don't push boundaries we never evolve and one thing Melee is good at doing is evolving and this could be a way it does it.
Not many people can dunk from the free throw line but no one can pivot up tilt either. If we remove the difficulty of melee all of a sudden that screws up the risk reward factor of nearly every decision, and everyone would sooner or later have to play Fox as his main barrier would be effectively removed.

Melee has been proven to have a well balanced meta with the native controls and almost no one complains unless they come from smash 4 where you can customize things more.
Except pivot up tilt isn't game breaking tech that will instantly make anyone win the game and it is possible to do you just need to know the timing to wait before doing the up tilt after you actually pivot, no tap jump just makes it so you don't have to be super careful with hitting up which I don't think is ground breaking in terms of making everyone or anyone superly good at the game all the sudden. At high level play the risk/reward factor is almost non-existent for any tech that would appear easier from different controls meaning it wont even effect them, maybe mid level players may be able to pull off tech more consistently, but they still need to learn the timing for the tech using their controls and they also need to know when to use it, custom controls won't help them if they don't know how to use the tech.

Its not about complaining, its about evolving and allowing players from all places to play using a control scheme they are familiar with and if it was really that broken then it would be banned, but I seriously doubt such a situation would occur any anyone who things one layout is better can easily switch to that layout themselves which puts both players again on an even playing field. I don't see how letting players play with a control scheme they are comfortable with is anything but a way to open the game up to more players and let current players play to the best of their abilities,both of which are a good thing for the game.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Good ole melee discussion. Lol. Yeah, I guess I get bored enough to continue posting when people surprise the **** out of me.

No, you didn't address the points I was trying to make, you asked questions about them, and by those questions, I could tell the point went over your head. You also missed the point of the analogy, designated common sense as theory, and assume I am simply "afraid of change". You must have heard a big "WHOOOOSH" sound somewhere amongst that, lmao.

There is currently no evidence to suggestion one side or the other is right, but I think we owe it to ourselves to try because if we don't push boundaries we never evolve and one thing Melee is good at doing is evolving and this could be a way it does it.
See, this is just awful imo (the evidence part). Answer this: Would you want custom controls to make playing melee MORE DIFFICULT? Of course not! Who do you think you're fooling? This is to make the game easier! There's the possibility of theory out the window! It's CUSTOM! As in the player chooses! It's easier! Holy cow. There's no "evidence" that changing the speed limit to 200mph would yield more car accidents either! I could go further into this but it would require a WALL of text for you to understand, and I'm just not willing to do it.
 
Last edited:

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
If I never missed an input every time I shined Peach she would die. But I miss a lot of inputs. If I could change the controls maybe I could be consistent at this, and then all of a sudden running shine goes from medium risk medium reward to medium risk greater reward than wobbling. Execution is always something top players have in mind and that's why sometimes you see them ending a combo for positional advantage rather than trying to do TAS level follow ups simply because they cannot be consistent at these follow ups and so it's better to end the combo in a favorable position. If you make the game easier, it shifts that, and the characters that benefit the most are the most technical ones. If you don't understand that I don't know what to tell you.

And as a random tangent, why modify the game? People in professional sports could do steroids because then the "meta" would be more developed. It's a higher level of play and more entertaining, yet this is illegal. Modifying controller input isn't quite like steroids, but there's nothing wrong with trying to keep the sport/game natural.

(Edit with pointless detail regarding pivot uptilt- if I have to wait to input the up tilt after empty pivoting it's basically useless and I may as well wavedash up tilt. There are small areas I've found where it is possible to do a pivot up tilt similar to how you do pivot f tilt, but they are very small and so it's very very difficult to pull off. Not really a point on discussing this further I just wanted to point that out lol)
 
Last edited:

Synnett

Alligator Lord
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
1,577
Location
Montreal, QC
All I would do is disable tap jump so pivot uptilt would be easy (I'm working on learning it but it's so freaking hard to do).
I suggest playing Super Monkey Ball 2 for that, it really helps with the tilts, as it's possible to tilt just enough to get the uptilt without triggering the jump. It helps with the precision on the stick and personally I never miss a tilt.

On the subject, I don't think it should be allowed. You have to modify stuff to get it to work and we just fade away from the vanilla game, which is a bad thing. And it gives an unfair advantage to some characters and I guess not everyone will have access to these modifications.
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
I suggest playing Super Monkey Ball 2 for that, it really helps with the tilts, as it's possible to tilt just enough to get the uptilt without triggering the jump. It helps with the precision on the stick and personally I never miss a tilt.
I know how far I can tilt so as not to trigger a jump. The issue is you it's not at all natural to immediately go straight up after a pivot. I wish I could explain but it's not very easy to put into words what you have to do with the control stick to do this (and no player has ever done this in tourney as far as I know).

But this isn't a thread about pivot up tilting so let's not talk about it any further.
 

HeavyLobster1120

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
29
What if things like that made the game faster/more exciting/drew in a larger crowd etc.. ? If it isn't harmful to the growth for the game I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed. Me, personally, I'd only turn off tap jump but that's just me.
If you turned off tap jump wouldn't you not be able to run up and up smash?
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
If you turned off tap jump wouldn't you not be able to run up and up smash?
If you use y/x to jump and then flick the c stick up it's generally better anyway because you're guaranteed to get no charge. I forget if you are guaranteed to get at least a frame of charge or not if you use tap jump, but it's certainly harder to press and release a immediately then to use y/x. If you need to charge I believe you can hold one or either of A/Z after flicking the c stick to charge (if you were to use y, it's easier to just use tap jump in that case)
 

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
Good ole melee discussion. Lol. Yeah, I guess I get bored enough to continue posting when people surprise the **** out of me.
Glad your still here :D

No, you didn't address the points I was trying to make, you asked questions about them, and by those questions, I could tell the point went over your head. You also missed the point of the analogy, designated common sense as theory, and assume I am simply "afraid of change". You must have heard a big "WHOOOOSH" sound somewhere amongst that, lmao.
The reason I didn't directly address you analogy was it didn't make sense. Custom controls does not give everyone abilities that no one else has, which addressed the analogy. See the problem is in terms of what is a controller in this analogy, its the player themselves right? Well they are all different, there isn't a standard one player height/weight/muscle mass, etc. Each player has their own standard that they can't change. So to make your analogy make sense it every NBA player would need to have the same body type and custom controls would be if they could change their bodies, not their abilities as a player. The restriction is they can only change their bodies based off other NBA players, just like custom controls can only map buttons that everyone else has and anyone can use that layout to. Now can changing their bodies enable them do things that players with those bodies can do? Yea, but they also still have to learn how to do them. Just because they have a body like Michael Jordon doesn't mean they can play like him.



See, this is just awful imo (the evidence part). Answer this: Would you want custom controls to make playing melee MORE DIFFICULT? Of course not! Who do you think you're fooling? This is to make the game easier! There's the possibility of theory out the window! It's CUSTOM! As in the player chooses! It's easier! Holy cow. There's no "evidence" that changing the speed limit to 200mph would yield more car accidents either! I could go further into this but it would require a WALL of text for you to understand, and I'm just not willing to do it.
How would you even know if custom controls would make playing more difficult though? You can't know because you wouldn't allow it to be tried. You are still under the impression that custom controls will make tech skill ez as pie. I'd like to see proof of this personally and that is what I am getting at. Neither of our theories are tested. We have not seen whether custom controls would create noob super soldiers who will beat all the veterans. We also haven't seen whether it evolves the meta and or grows the community by being more accessible. See your speed analogy also does not work. First of all I could probably find a half dozen studies that show speeding causes more accidents and speeding, which is going over the speed limit, depending on where you are in the U.S is about 75-80 mph and is certainly below 200 MPH. This means you could logically deduce that more car accidents would occur. Your argument does not have such a logically deducible outcome, neither does mine that's the point I was making.

If I never missed an input every time I shined Peach she would die. But I miss a lot of inputs. If I could change the controls maybe I could be consistent at this, and then all of a sudden running shine goes from medium risk medium reward to medium risk greater reward than wobbling. Execution is always something top players have in mind and that's why sometimes you see them ending a combo for positional advantage rather than trying to do TAS level follow ups simply because they cannot be consistent at these follow ups and so it's better to end the combo in a favorable position. If you make the game easier, it shifts that, and the characters that benefit the most are the most technical ones. If you don't understand that I don't know what to tell you.
Maybe with new controls you would be more consistent, why is that a problem? Why force everyone to have to learn the game the same way? Not everyone learns the same way in general and for some people some controls make more sense. So you become more consistent because of new controls to punish Peach? What if the Peach uses their own set of controls that help them space attacks better to avoid your shine? The thing is that a different control scheme is unlikely to instantly allow you to shine Peach more consistently. Not only do you have to retrain you muscle memory you still need to understand when to properly use the technique. Long story short you still need to train and practice and learn the match ups and spacing, custom controls on make it so you can do those things in a way you feel most comfortable.

And as a random tangent, why modify the game? People in professional sports could do steroids because then the "meta" would be more developed. It's a higher level of play and more entertaining, yet this is illegal. Modifying controller input isn't quite like steroids, but there's nothing wrong with trying to keep the sport/game natural.
Well we are already starting to use a mod of the game (20XX TE), but even if that did not take off what about external devices that could remap buttons? The game itself would be left in tact, there would be no need to leave the character select screen for anything, even rumble technically.

(Edit with pointless detail regarding pivot uptilt- if I have to wait to input the up tilt after empty pivoting it's basically useless and I may as well wavedash up tilt. There are small areas I've found where it is possible to do a pivot up tilt similar to how you do pivot f tilt, but they are very small and so it's very very difficult to pull off. Not really a point on discussing this further I just wanted to point that out lol)
Yea I actually decided to test this out myself and found the same thing. I kept getting pivot f-tilt instead of up and this was with tap jump off so yea it doesn't make uptilt that much easier as you still need the right angle and to do it in a match is still very difficult.

On the subject, I don't think it should be allowed. You have to modify stuff to get it to work and we just fade away from the vanilla game, which is a bad thing. And it gives an unfair advantage to some characters and I guess not everyone will have access to these modifications.
You don't necessarily have to modify stuff, we already have 20XX TE which could allow it, but what if as I said above it was something that just plugged into the controller? It never touches the game, just remaps the inputs.



If you turned off tap jump wouldn't you not be able to run up and up smash?
If you use y/x to jump and then flick the c stick up it's generally better anyway because you're guaranteed to get no charge. I forget if you are guaranteed to get at least a frame of charge or not if you use tap jump, but it's certainly harder to press and release a immediately then to use y/x. If you need to charge I believe you can hold one or either of A/Z after flicking the c stick to charge (if you were to use y, it's easier to just use tap jump in that case)
I turned tap jump off in Achilles hack pack and the way i found to do it the easiest it to tap down first to crouch cancel you run and them up and attack or the c-stick.
 
Last edited:

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
So first on the technical side of things press down before up smashing is wasting frames.

If I could remap my controls I could make my c stick a second control stick, and that would allow me to pivot shine really easily which I could do instead of JC turnaround waveshine to do the infinite (pivot shine has the same general problem as pivot up tilt). Most non fox characters do not have these super technical options, fox would almost certainly benefit the most.

Most tournaments do not use 20xx TE, and plugging something into your controller may not be modding the game but it is modding the controller inputs which is exactly what I said.

Most importantly, you didn't really address any of the parts regarding keeping the game play natural (yes your controller is part of your play) and maintaining the risk/reward/comboing for stage positioning vs TAS follow ups which were the main parts of the argument I presented.
 

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
So first on the technical side of things press down before up smashing is wasting frames.
So there is a trade off? This only makes custom controls more viable considering you may have to sacrifice certain techniques or make others harder, that's up to the player though.

If I could remap my controls I could make my c stick a second control stick, and that would allow me to pivot shine really easily which I could do instead of JC turnaround waveshine to do the infinite (pivot shine has the same general problem as pivot up tilt). Most non fox characters do not have these super technical options, fox would almost certainly benefit the most.
I don't see how making your c-stick would make pivot shine easier, but even if that is true, you now lose the c-stick which means spacing aerials is now harder and so is running up smash. You traded one tech for many others and doubt this would be ground breaking for Fox's meta.

Most tournaments do not use 20xx TE, and plugging something into your controller may not be modding the game but it is modding the controller inputs which is exactly what I said.
You are right most tournaments done use 20xx TE, but they might in the future and if that is the case then why shouldn't people be aloud to change their controls if its available? The thing is custom controls are nothing like steroids as the is no way they would benefit a player in a way steroids does for athletes. The thing is modding controllers is already being done, the point of 20XX TE or an external device is to give the same abilities as someone who actually mods their controller without having to have a controller dedicated to one control scheme like it currently is.

Most importantly, you didn't really address any of the parts regarding keeping the game play natural (yes your controller is part of your play) and maintaining the risk/reward/comboing for stage positioning vs TAS follow ups which were the main parts of the argument I presented.
The game play is natural, how its played would change, and that is something that has always been changing since the game came out. You could say wavedashing isn't natural, doesn't mean it isn't or should be part of the game. The risk/reward/comboing will not change because people can still flub inputs no matter what control scheme they use. If they aren't playing on point it wont matter what controls they are using they are still going to lose.
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
By natural I mean without modding, and doing this without question is modding the game play. A wave dash is not a mod.

I beg to differ that risk reward would not change. If you give someone perfect Firefox angles all of a sudden they can go for that sweetspot much more because it's much easier to do it. That's one example.

Regarding using the c stick to make pivoting easier, I could just as easily change r to be left and change X to be right. That way I lose literally nothing as I never press those buttons, and difficult pivot techniques would be much easier because I don't have to return my control stick to neutral and then tilt in a strange way in a frame.
 

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
By natural I mean without modding, and doing this without question is modding the game play. A wave dash is not a mod.
Its not modding the gameplay, if anything it was what you said earlier which is modding how the game can be played, they are two different things entirely.

I beg to differ that risk reward would not change. If you give someone perfect Firefox angles all of a sudden they can go for that sweetspot much more because it's much easier to do it. That's one example.
Not a great example considering remapping buttons would not give you a way to do perfect Firefox angles. Maybe you are thinking about notches? Remapping buttons simply lets you make it so when one button is press the game registers a different, nothing more nothing less, not multiple button presses, not macros, not specific kinds of inputs or angles, just a one for one swap.

Regarding using the c stick to make pivoting easier, I could just as easily change r to be left and change X to be right. That way I lose literally nothing as I never press those buttons, and difficult pivot techniques would be much easier because I don't have to return my control stick to neutral and then tilt in a strange way in a frame.
Yes you could do that, now you must learn to use it in a match, remember you never press those buttons before meaning you must now integrate using them into you play. This will take time and practice, just like anyone else except that control layout makes sense to you so you are going to learn to do it that way.
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
Location
Connecticut
If you don't think that modding your inputs mods the gameplay then I can't even really have a conversation.

The only other thing I'll add is that yes, I would have to learn how to use R and X to do pivot shines but this would probably take me an hour at most, which is far far less than it would take to learn it using standard controls and also would be much more consistent, allowing me to use it reliably.

Really though, not only do you have very strange ideas on what modding is but you really don't seem to understand how much remapping your inputs can change the possible tech that you can pull off consistently, and on top of that you don't even understand why dumping that change into the meta would be a bad thing. So I'm really not interested in this anymore. Have a good one
 

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
If you don't think that modding your inputs mods the gameplay then I can't even really have a conversation.
You're entitled to your opinion, I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

The only other thing I'll add is that yes, I would have to learn how to use R and X to do pivot shines but this would probably take me an hour at most, which is far far less than it would take to learn it using standard controls and also would be much more consistent, allowing me to use it reliably.
Ok... I am failing to see the problem here? You learned to do a tech using your own controls faster because it made more sense to you? That's my point, its not that the tech is easier just because of that layout, its easier for you to understand. Not everyone will understand that setup meaning the time it would take them to learn how to use it that way could be anywhere from the time it took you, to the time it took someone with standard controls, and beyond. Every person is different and that's the point. Forcing people to learn one way if there are other ways to do it is restricting players from playing the best way they can for the sake of conformity because other players are afraid of change.

Really though, not only do you have very strange ideas on what modding is but you really don't seem to understand how much remapping your inputs can change the possible tech that you can pull off consistently, and on top of that you don't even understand why dumping that change into the meta would be a bad thing. So I'm really not interested in this anymore. Have a good one
It's not strange its technically correct. Modding a game is modifying the code/art/sound of the game such that no matter what system you put it in, with the proper homebrew or exploit, it will play that way. If none of that is done, the game is unmodified and thus unmodded. I guess button remapping can be considered a mod, but I doubt most people would, if anything your modding the controller signal not the controller.

You have failed to show me what this possible tech with custom controls is that will ruin the meta. You think it will change the meta in a bad way, I disagree, if anything it would push the meta forward because now people are playing the way they want. I see no reason this shouldn't be at least attempted and if someone wants to show off some broken tech that is possible with remappable buttons (note: not macros, not binding two buttons to one, simple one for one swapping of buttons). Also you also didn't think of what if there were restriction of the button mapping? In Brawl and Smash 4 movement is restricted to just the joystick, making your control scheme impossible. Could it still be done? Sure, but nothing was stopping people from doing this before with an actual controller mod, but if custom controls had the same restrictions as other smash titles do then what would the problem be then? The interesting thing is PM has unrestricted custom controls and is a Melee-like environment and yet we have yet to see someone come up with a control scheme that is so broken that restrictions had to be applied.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
You believe turbo buttons should be banned, and they would help push the meta. Guess you're just "afraid of change". LOL
 

Dark Byte

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 4, 2016
Messages
58
You believe turbo buttons should be banned, and they would help push the meta. Guess you're just "afraid of change". LOL
Can you give me an example of a button remapping setup that would have a big effect on the game?
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Can you give me an example of a button remapping setup that would have a big effect on the game?
The effect isn't the issue, turbo buttons wouldn't ruin the game either. Looking at someone's controller to see their DI wouldn't ruin the game. Coaching mid-match wouldn't ruin the game. Certain macros wouldn't even ruin the game. It's the fact that people want to change the standard configuration to their own benefit instead of practicing. Putting buttons closer together makes inputs inherently easier, right up until you start accidentally hitting 2 buttons at once. If the standard was that jump buttons were 2 inches away from the B button, you wouldn't see much multi-shining. Get it? But say there was someone that could do it despite that challenge. He'd be highly respected for his skill. But then someone might remap the circuitry and drill a new hole for the B button to be 5mm from his preferred jump button, so he can now do it too. Is that fair? Should things be fair in competition? Should the ability to mod a controller be a skill tested for in tournament, instead of simply seeing what you're capable of using the standard configuration? Shouldn't we be testing for.... skill? But I'll humor you. How about remapping the small d-pad for directions, or even X/Y to full left/right for dashing and SDI? Mashing out would be a breeze... Or remapping buttons to input perfect WD angles? Switching A and B to make multishining easier? Remapping a button for full shield to make powershielding easier? The amount things like this would help can't be measured, but it doesn't matter. Some people have trouble understanding that if you practice your ass off and still can't execute something, maybe you require more practice than most people. There are a lot of fox things I can't execute well, but I didn't try to make playing fox easier. I chose another character. Don't lower the basket to 8 feet just to make your 3 point percentage better, just keep practicing.
 
Last edited:

Bakuryu

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
507
Location
Breinigsville, PA
You believe turbo buttons should be banned, and they would help push the meta. Guess you're just "afraid of change". LOL
Orange to Apples comparison right there, but I'll indulge none the less. Turbo buttons introduce the possibility of inputs that are not humanly possible, that is the reason they are banned. Custom controls would not give people the ability to perform inputs not possible by humans, or at least not as consistently.

In theory though the benefits might actually be minimal. You could potentially make L-canceling easier, if it spammed the Z-button when you held it, it may help with L-Canceling, but that depends on how fast the inputs would come out as the timing of the inputs and the L-cancel window it might not actually work, but the Z-button is required in order to prevent triggering the missed tech window I believe. The other potential abuse could be mashing out of grabs. According to this post by Magnus you can only input one control stick and one button input each frame so you could use the Z-button again here if it triggers the button every frame and use that to help you mash out of grabs. The issue here is no human can mash a button consistently every frame. Neither of these things are the worst things in the world, but they are assists from technology on a players behalf which is where the issue really lies. Other then that smash isn't like other fighters were there are tight links for specific combos so there aren't as many benefits to turbo, but they still exists. Ironically we banned turbo like other fighting games, but if we restricts other controls or controllers we would be very different from other fighting games which allow just about any type of controller including ones built by players.

The effect isn't the issue, turbo buttons wouldn't ruin the game either. Looking at someone's controller to see their DI wouldn't ruin the game. Coaching mid-match wouldn't ruin the game. Certain macros wouldn't even ruin the game.
Wait what? Most of the things you just said would definitely ruin the game. Luckily people who would watch an opponents controller would be left vulnerable to their opponent, but in games like Street Fighter listening to opponents inputs has become a recent problem to the point were some use silent buttons, while others abuse it and unmap buttons to hits and get reactions from the other player. That is not good for the game as it takes the skill of reading your opponent out of the game and puts it in the real world which is not how these games should played. Coaching mid match doesn't ruin the game, but it ruins the experience for spectators and it can potentially kill momentum for a player (this one is more debatable for sure though as this could be a strategy, albeit a pretty annoying one). Certain macros? Which macros would you be OK with? because if you ok with macros then why the heck would you have an issue with custom controls? Macros are far worse then custom controls because they don't even require the player to do the inputs. This is the point I am making about custom controls, you still need to do the inputs for the tech.

It's the fact that people want to change the standard configuration to their own benefit instead of practicing.
Except they still have to practice... If you would lose to someone who just started playing the game because they remapped their buttons then I am not sure what to tell you, but maybe this isn't your game.


Putting buttons closer together makes inputs inherently easier, right up until you start accidentally hitting 2 buttons at once. If the standard was that jump buttons were 2 inches away from the B button, you wouldn't see much multi-shining. Get it?
So what your saying is multshining should be really easy because the B button is so close to the Y button? I mean everyone should be multishining then, because you know they are so close together. (FYI I believe B and Y are roughly 1 inch from each other from middle to middle and B and X is 1.5 inches if I measured right)
But say there was someone that could do it despite that challenge. He'd be highly respected for his skill.
Great for them? Why make everyone do it their way because they want to challenge themselves? That's like saying hey everyone I want to climb this wall even though there are stairs over there and so you all have to as well.
But then someone might remap the circuitry and drill a new hole for the B button to be 5mm from his preferred jump button, so he can now do it too. Is that fair? Should things be fair in competition? Should the ability to mod a controller be a skill tested for in tournament, instead of simply seeing what you're capable of using the standard configuration? Shouldn't we be testing for.... skill?
First off, I am not talking about modding the controller so drilling a hole is out of the question. Second, a persons skills shouldn't be tested with restrictions on how they are allowed to play, they should only be restricted by the mechanics of the games.

But I'll humor you. How about remapping the small d-pad for directions, or even X/Y to full left/right for dashing and SDI? Mashing out would be a breeze... Or remapping buttons to input perfect WD angles? Switching A and B to make multishining easier? Remapping a button for full shield to make powershielding easier?
This really makes me question whether you know what button remapping is, first you were talking about drilling holes, now your talking about somehow allowing perfect WD angles, none of these things are possible with button remapping. To address the other potential remapps that actually make sense in the order you made them:
  • No smash game, including PM, which has less restrictions on button remaps then Brawl and Smash 4, allow any buttons to be assignment control stick inputs. A remapper for Melee would be no different thus making your d-pad and X/Y remapping impossible.
  • Switching A and B is definitely and option, will it make multishining easier? Maybe, more efficient is more likely as you wont have to move your thumb as much, but the timing for the tech is still very difficult and I say this with experience as I have personally experimented myself with a similar remap to see if it would be easier, but between my old muscle memory and the fact that you still must time the inputs to a specific rhythm makes it unlikely I would long term master the tech any quicker. In fact I find sliding between B and Y easier (I play Falco) as the timing between the slide works out well.
  • Z is already a button for full shield in standard controls so I don't see how this would be any different for other buttons really.

The amount things like this would help can't be measured, but it doesn't matter. Some people have trouble understanding that if you practice your *** off and still can't execute something, maybe you require more practice than most people. There are a lot of fox things I can't execute well, but I didn't try to make playing fox easier. I chose another character. Don't lower the basket to 8 feet just to make your 3 point percentage better, just keep practicing.
It doesn't need to be measured because it isn't as big of a deal as you are making it out to be. You think people will somehow become amazing without practice because they remap buttons which couldn't be farther from the truth. The truth is no matter what button configuration you have you need to practice, will a different configuration make it easier? For some people maybe, but they still need to practice playing the game and the timing of their tech otherwise they will be 0 - 2 and out of the tournament just like anyone else who didn't practice. Just because you don't want to change your controls to help you play the best you can doesn't mean no one else shouldn't be able to. I don't really understand what your concern is because it seems you believe that allowing people to remap controls will suddenly make them better then you who work so hard practicing a specific way, but you aren't considering the people have also put that same work on and haven't gotten as far because they were fighting the controls instead of their opponent.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Orange to Apples comparison right there, but I'll indulge none the less
I was merely highlighting how ridiculous the "afraid of change" argument you keep making is. If I was afraid of change I'd say shield dropping should have been banned years ago. You can give that one a rest.

I see you are fine with changing the standard as you see fit, and everything else is ruining the game. Good philosophy. Btw, c-stick is a macro. The addition of something like that wouldn't ruin the game, unless you consider melee already ruined. Just an example.

The fact that you defend a substitute for practice with "but they still have to practice" is very funny to me. This is irrelevant as you'd have to practice regardless of any modification. I doubt you'll ever get it lol.

That's like saying hey everyone I want to climb this wall even though there are stairs over there and so you all have to as well.
You're almost there man! Now imagine it's a wall climbing competition, and someone comes along using the stairs (and claims to be an innovator), arguing it's legit. Lol.

You think people will somehow become amazing without practice because they remap buttons
No. Steroids won't automatically make you amazing in sports, but it's unfair and banned. Again you're missing the entire point.

Just because you don't want to change your controls
No. I wouldn't mind it at all of i viewed it as fair by any stretch of the imagination.

you believe that allowing people to remap controls will suddenly make them better then you
LOL. No. You simply either have no sense of fairness in competition, or don't place any value on it.

you aren't considering the people have also put that same work on and haven't gotten as far because they were fighting the controls instead of their opponent.
To them, I'd say that I'm sorry melee is a technical game, and urge them to keep practicing, as it is also a fun and rewarding game.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom