What holds back a mid-level player from being high-level?

[Baby_Sneak]

There's definitely a physical component you have to consider. Execution in a variety of fighting games is one of the few things that separates the boys from the men. People have different levels of coordination, ambidexterity, and speed. You can train these specific attributes but to what extent I am not sure.

Some games you can't even play at a decent level without good execution like Tekken, KOF, or Melee.

Take Luigi's cyclone for example, can everybody achieve the mashing level of Elegant and Concon? I'm not so sure.

Oh noooo, anybody can get their execution to acceptable levels for any solid competitive game. It just takes time.

Or you could always select a different character if it's a problem still (sheik, puff, and marth aren't that hard in melee. Choi, Chang, Daimon, Iori, kyo, etc... aren't that hard in KOF. Idk much bout tekken so I can't talk about it).

 

[Nyhte]

Your analogy doesn't really have a leg to stand on. It works against you. "Since X sinked the most time into Y, Y is high tier and X played the most." Take note of all our top players, but especially ZeRo. Been playing smash since melee, plays Diddy the most, and look how everyone rates Diddy. When he played sheik in previous patches she was rated top tier. And most if not all the top players in this game were top players backs in brawl and melee, so they absolutely sank the most time into smash overall.

Sports lean more on genetics and genes than games because they're wayyy more involved with the body. Games are more involved with the mind. Unlike the body, the mind is much more adaptable and malleable and can take up new information and become more well-rounded in areas it lacked.

If you kept reading what I said, you would've seen me talk about mindset and understanding. In this way, fighting games are like chess, where the real thing holding you back is understanding and awareness of various micro and macro situations, not to mention how these situations influence the opponent, and then this influences how you read them. Execution is trivial because it's EASILY worked on and the goal is to be able to do nigh everything you can think of. All you need is proper training.

Reaction is nothing more than being able to simply information to make it easier to "digest" and go off of (It's easier to react when somebody just tells you to push a button when the screen flashes than if they told you to push a button when you find the needle in a haystack).

There's the more-involved aspect to physical vs nonphysical games which you acknowledge, but that's the point. You say the only real thing holding you back is time, proper training. What is the only real thing holding you back? I will grant you that my argument didn't have the best analogy or evidence, I will grant you that instincts can be trained as well, but it seems to be that the only thing isn't time. I'll recall that quote, "Hard work beats talent when talent isn't working hard" I'm not so much as suggesting that time isn't involved, I'm not inferring that any top player waltzed into being a top player, that they didn't work hard. But from what we can guess, it makes sense that there's more to everything we know than "the physical body is different than the mental and everyone is capable of the same skill mentally" I don't buy that for a second, I'd believe it if we actually found that out, make no mistake, but from even our current understanding of people, there are people that learn faster and have certain ingrained habits or lessons that are better, on par or worse than others which will affect them when it comes to their approach on everything. As a main point I'll just say this- for physical things we have superhumans, gunslingers that actually make the hollywood instant draw revolver shot a reality, people that are incredibly strong or incredibly fast whether it's speed or reflexes or both, if that's true, why wouldn't those differences also exist for people mentally? Don't tell me that intelligence is so simple but we know enough about it to say everyone is capable of being equally witty and wise given enough time. That's simply untrue.

In regards to reaction we could specify and split hairs even further. However, I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Ok, reaction is a response to something. If you meant to devalue it, you can do that with anything. For instance- being good at anything is simply how much time you spent and that's it.

There's a dilemma between you and I fundamentally it seems. I've always seen the value in mind games and player's instincts, their knowledge, but I've always had high praise for execution as a player who has a history of not being mechanically sound. It seems like it takes way too long for my hands to remember things which is why when I see good play and fast mechanics I'm really impressed. I have high praise for good players, but I value their mechanics a lot. Some players are more knowledge or mental based, some have more talent in the physical aspect. Just because you or other people think something is easy doesn't mean it's easy. When you have it, it can seem easy, just like moving your hand. When you don't, or you're hindered by something, then it's hard.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

There's the more-involved aspect to physical vs nonphysical games which you acknowledge, but that's the point. You say the only real thing holding you back is time, proper training. What is the only real thing holding you back? I will grant you that my argument didn't have the best analogy or evidence, I will grant you that instincts can be trained as well, but it seems to be that the only thing isn't time. I'll recall that quote, "Hard work beats talent when talent isn't working hard" I'm not so much as suggesting that time isn't involved, I'm not inferring that any top player waltzed into being a top player, that they didn't work hard. But from what we can guess, it makes sense that there's more to everything we know than "the physical body is different than the mental and everyone is capable of the same skill mentally" I don't buy that for a second, I'd believe it if we actually found that out, make no mistake, but from even our current understanding of people, there are people that learn faster and have certain ingrained habits or lessons that are better, on par or worse than others which will affect them when it comes to their approach on everything. As a main point I'll just say this- for physical things we have superhumans, gunslingers that actually make the hollywood instant draw revolver shot a reality, people that are incredibly strong or incredibly fast whether it's speed or reflexes or both, if that's true, why wouldn't those differences also exist for people mentally? Don't tell me that intelligence is so simple but we know enough about it to say everyone is capable of being equally witty and wise given enough time. That's simply untrue.

In regards to reaction we could specify and split hairs even further. However, I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Ok, reaction is a response to something. If you meant to devalue it, you can do that with anything. For instance- being good at anything is simply how much time you spent and that's it.

There's a dilemma between you and I fundamentally it seems. I've always seen the value in mind games and player's instincts, their knowledge, but I've always had high praise for execution as a player who has a history of not being mechanically sound. It seems like it takes way too long for my hands to remember things which is why when I see good play and fast mechanics I'm really impressed. I have high praise for good players, but I value their mechanics a lot. Some players are more knowledge or mental based, some have more talent in the physical aspect. Just because you or other people think something is easy doesn't mean it's easy. When you have it, it can seem easy, just like moving your hand. When you don't, or you're hindered by something, then it's hard.

Not trying to say good execution isn't interesting to watch or w/e, but it's not hard to get reasonably good at. Just want to say that real quick (I'll make the exception with execution-heavy characters though. Those guys are a real treat).

What holds me back is motivation, MU knowledge, Execution, lack of access to top players to play, time, and no travel money. Prolly some more factors, but that's what I know. If I wanted to get really good at smash, I'd have to start caring first though.

What makes things click faster and easier for other players is perspective and philosophy. To think on their absolute parallel is extremely difficult (and even harder if they're not articulate with metacognition), but what can be done is looking at the game with varying perspectives. That'll make you well-rounded and in fact will make you more accustomed to honing this skill that "talented" players wouldn't really be used to. "Hard work beats talent when talent isn't working hard" is all the way orientated towards sports because unlike the brain, the body has limits, and everybody's body has different limits. You'll always be learning and pushing the limits of your brain, however.


And the reaction part is like this: people react better when they can see what they need to react to. When there's no confusion. Ally reacts like the way he does because he knows what he need to look out for. You can't because you can't see.

 

[Nah]

because unlike the brain, the body has limits, and everybody's body has different limits. You'll always be learning and pushing the limits of your brain, however.

When are you going to substantiate this claim? You keep repeating that people don't have any mental limits, but have yet to provide any reason that this is indeed the case, and for all people.

Also you do realize that the brain is part of the physical body too, right?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

When are you going to substantiate this claim? You keep repeating that people don't have any mental limits, but have yet to provide any reason that this is indeed the case, and for all people.

Also you do realize that the brain is part of the physical body too, right?

Who needs proof for something so simple? heres your proof: when do you ever stop learning? my evidence is life.

And that last statement just shows a lack of comprehension and common sense.

http://brainj11.imascientist.org.uk...hen-slow-down-learning-when-we-get-really-old

http://www.newlifecovenantcentre.com/at-what-age-do-we-stop-learning/

https://www.quora.com/At-what-age-do-I-stop-learning


Sheesh

 

[Nah]

Who needs proof for something so simple? heres your proof: when do you ever stop learning? my evidence is life.

And that last statement screams triggered.

It's nice to see that you'd rather be dismissive and snarky instead of giving a proper response.

I know that some of my posts in this thread have not been the nicest, but I'm pretty calm right now, and was when I made my previous post. I'm not triggered. The last sentence in my previous post has to do with the fact that you have admitted multiple times so far that we do indeed have physical limits, and so I don't get why you would then go on to say that the brain--an organ of our physical bodies--has limitless potential.

You ever hear the saying "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"? "my evidence is life" is hardly what I'd personally call evidence when I can just shoot back the same thing in support of my claim and have it be just as valid.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It's nice to see that you'd rather be dismissive and snarky instead of giving a proper response.

I know that some of my posts in this thread have not been the nicest, but I'm pretty calm right now, and was when I made my previous post. I'm not triggered. The last sentence in my previous post has to do with the fact that you have admitted multiple times so far that we do indeed have physical limits, and so I don't get why you would then go on to say that the brain--an organ of our physical bodies--has limitless potential.

You ever hear the saying "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"? "my evidence is life" is hardly what I'd personally call evidence when I can just shoot back the same thing in support of my claim and have it be just as valid.

Check my post again.

Never heard of anyone not learning anything new at any age in my life. And you can tell me life experiences and I can show without a doubt that that person was already pessismtic, doubtful, lacked confidence, didn't believed, quit prematurely, gave up at first glance, and many other motivation killers.


The limits on our bodies is simple: I will never grow to 6'5, run as fast a dog, be as strong as the hulk, etc etc w/e (thanks to genetics, our DNA, etc...). However, interacting, processsing, and deducing new information is not only a human trait, it's an animal trait. There's been countless experiments of animals
Doing ridiculous things knowing that they'll get food if they do it, and it's not hard to find. The reason is for the ability to survive in a ever-changing environment (can't survive if you can't switch to fishing when there's no more four-legged animals to eat). It's really an animal thing. "Can't teach an old dog new tricks" is a myth

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/mythbusters-database/teach-old-dog-new-tricks/

http://www.animalplanet.com/wild-animals/you-cant-teach-an-old-dog-new-tricks/

http://wonderopolis.org/wonder/can-you-teach-an-old-dog-new-tricks


You got to get rid of these harmful and disgusting myths and get on the path of Holy optimism! Lol

 

[Karaoke Man]

I believe it mostly comes down to experience and the type of experience.

For instance, back when I used to compete in the Brawl days as a Yoshi player, myself and fellow Yoshi main Raptor at the time competed for the title of "Best Yoshi". I lived in central Ohio at the time and couldn't really travel much, so most of the players I could play against were well....central Ohio players.

Although, when the time came when Raptor and myself played, Even though I could beat him in particular; I had a hard ass time beating people that he'd regularly play against.

Well okay, that's a slight exaggeration, but the point is: I had some experience playing with top players, but Raptor lived in a region (New York) where he could contend with that experience all the time. On the AllisBrawl ladder back in the day. I had struggled to get to about 1500-1600 point range, but Raptor would get to 1800-1900 easily and that's generally where the top 36 would reside.

He certainly had more experience when it came to playing some of the best players in the country. (Also, consider the fact that most of them used top tiers such as Meta Knight, Snake, Falco etc etc. )

Ultimately, I believe that is the difference between someone who is mid-level and top-level.

• A Mid-Level player generally has the opportunity to play against those that are below or at the individual's current skill level.

• Whereas, a Top-Level player has more of the opportunity to play against those who have a higher skill level than the individual. They had people that help push the undefined limits of the player's skill level. Thus, they grow a lot faster than someone who doesn't have the same experience.

However, this probably isn't always the case. Because there are those who do have a lot of top player experience, but don't grow from it. This is usually brought on by closed-mindedness of some degree. I feel it doesn't happen too often, but it does happen nontheless.

That is my observation regarding that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

A lot of that experience part for the above at a top level is true, want to know how to get it though imo?

Find them when they do streams against viewers, find them when they are asking to wifi someone, ask for friendlies etc. Take a chance to reach out abd play other people more.

There are a lot of opportunities rather than just in bracket.

 

[Karaoke Man]

A lot of that experience part for the above at a top level is true, want to know how to get it though imo?

Find them when they do streams against viewers, find them when they are asking to wifi someone, ask for friendlies etc. Take a chance to reach out abd play other people more.

There are a lot of opportunities rather than just in bracket.

I feel like there's a lot of truth to this, but at the same time it's more difficult than it used to be due to the incorporation of Esports into the Smash Bros. Community; Maybe this is just me projecting a little bit lol, but most of them usually seem a little less inclined to do wifi nowadays or even friendlies without there being some money on the line.

Totally agree about reaching out to other people though; if you want to improve, gotta' put your best foot forward and start walking.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I feel like there's a lot of truth to this, but at the same time it's more difficult than it used to be due to the incorporation of Esports into the Smash Bros. Community; Maybe this is just me projecting a little bit lol, but most of them usually seem a little less inclined to do wifi nowadays or even friendlies without there being some money on the line.

Totally agree about reaching out to other people though; if you want to improve, gotta' put your best foot forward and start walking.

Yeah I agree with you on this, and can see why you feel how you do.

Second paragraph you listed is how I project. Never give up and just try and reach out. It's how I feel players can make the jump.

 

[TheQTpie]

honestly it's probably just bad habits

 

[ZafKiel]

Not playing anyone who is better than them. I have a few friends who are great at Smash but rarely play with others. If you are serious about becoming a high level player, you should be able to play with players who are considerably better and be comfortable with getting bodied on a normal basis.