What does New Shieldstun mean for the Mayor? Is Pocket broken, now?

[Darklink401]

I opened this thread as a sort of discussion thread in regards, specifically, to how Villager is affected by the global change to shieldstun.

Pocket, being very fast in terms of releasing projectiles, might be broken now?

A 16% damage projectile (PK thunder is around this, I believe) would, using the formula, equate to 19 frames of shieldstun.

And since it's a projectile, that'd be an extra 3-5 frames I believe

Pocket PK thunder on shield to grab confirm, is a thing now, for example.

 

[AnchorTea]

So Villager DID get buffed after all...

 

[Darklink401]

Indirectly, yes. Heavily. I put him as top 5 now.

 

[arncakes]

Maybe PK Thunder or other projectiles to axe for guaranteed shield break? I've been trying to find things that work. No luck yet.

 

[JohnnyB]

I read a twitter post that said that thunder based attacks get more shieldstun. Is that a new thing or was it always like that? If that's the case you would get even more than 19 frames from pk thunder.

Also, the Shiekachu (yeah i went there) matchup is going to be a lot harder, possibly a loss for Villager.

 

[arncakes]

Maybe pikachus pocketed thunder jolt will give huge shield stun and lead into grabs though? Could make it a little more even as pikachu would have to avoid camping.

 

[AnchorTea]

I honestly believe that this doesn't mean Pocket is OP now.

Think about this, is it a better option to kill, space, or zone with the majority of the potential pocketed projectiles? While an added shieldstun is a plus, we should never use it for punishing shielding. Thats like saying using the Wood Chip for shield punishes.

 

[Darklink401]

I honestly believe that this doesn't mean Pocket is OP now.

Think about this, is it a better option to kill, space, or zone with the majority of the potential pocketed projectiles? While an added shieldstun is a plus, we should never use it for punishing shielding. Thats like saying using the Wood Chip for shield punishes.

Added shieldstun means shielding vs the heavy-hitting Pocketed projectiles Villager launches is no longer viable, as Villager can punish you, even with a shieldbreak.

Villager's Pocket benefits from this mechanic, so I'd say yes, it makes it OP

It was already damn good before.

 

[Jigglystep]

I've been brainstorming about the shieldstun that lloid grants, especially in conjunction with our attacks with heavy shield damage, such as axe. If I'm following the new shieldstun formula correctly, lloid now has 6 frames of shieldstun. Taking into consideration axe's relatively quick startup, we may have newfound access to some deadly shield pressure setups. I'm definitely going to test some stuff.

 

[Darklink401]

I've been brainstorming about the shieldstun that lloid grants, especially in conjunction with our attacks with heavy shield damage, such as axe. If I'm following the new shieldstun formula correctly, lloid now has 6 frames of shieldstun. Taking into consideration axe's relatively quick startup, we may have newfound access to some deadly shield pressure setups. I'm definitely going to test some stuff.

Lloid to axe almost breaks shields.

Lloid to axe to timber almost breaks shields too

No cigar.

Safe on shield tho.

 

[RAzul]

Added shieldstun means shielding vs the heavy-hitting Pocketed projectiles Villager launches is no longer viable, as Villager can punish you, even with a shieldbreak.

Villager's Pocket benefits from this mechanic, so I'd say yes, it makes it OP

It was already damn good before.

I'm frickin excited.

 

[Darklink401]

Megaman a bad MU?

HAHA

pocket crash bomb

if they shield before crash bomb goes of, axe them as crash bomb is exploding on their shield

Instant shield break

Profit.

 

[RAzul]

Megaman a bad MU?

HAHA

pocket crash bomb

if they shield before crash bomb goes of, axe them as crash bomb is exploding on their shield

Instant shield break

Profit.

Yooo... Smart MM players won't do that often and you need the tree out to pul this off but this is beautiful.

 

[Darklink401]

Yooo... Smart MM players won't do that often and you need the tree out to pul this off but this is beautiful.

Well they'll usually shield, to avoid getting damaged xD Their first reaction might be to try and plant it on you, but MM isn't that fast, so you can avoid him, then when it explodes, axe him a question XD

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

Well they'll usually shield, to avoid getting damaged xD Their first reaction might be to try and plant it on you, but MM isn't that fast, so you can avoid him, then when it explodes, axe him a question XD

And the best part is a ton of usually sit back and throw crashbombs and gears at the tree once watered making it an unbelievable easy bait. This also means a pocket purple pikmin from + the axe on shield is a free break... yall we in there?

 

[Darklink401]

I also recommend pocketing TL boomerang and arrow if they fully charge it. Both are safe on shield, and can lead to axe, or other things. :D

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

I also recommend pocketing TL boomerang and arrow if they fully charge it. Both are safe on shield, and can lead to axe, or other things. :D

PUT EM IN A COFFIN!

 

[Moosseff]

This is interesting...what about wii-fits sun salutation to axe or loid? Personally I like my distance but idk if axe would be the better option :/

 

[arncakes]

You can condition people to shield more if you lloid and cover the jump option with slingshot most of the match instead of going for grabs. Then, go for an axe shield break when they get too comfortable shielding. It might be better to just make an educated guess though. If someone has little time to escape the lloid they will almost always shield, so that's a good time to axe too.

 

[Darklink401]

This is interesting...what about wii-fits sun salutation to axe or loid? Personally I like my distance but idk if axe would be the better option :/

Well, Wii fit likes her distance, but up close, I feel we'd win. So you can pressure her shield and then go in for a sun salutation to axe, which Im...sure should be safe. xD

 

[RAzul]

Well, Wii fit likes her distance, but up close, I feel we'd win. So you can pressure her shield and then go in for a sun salutation to axe, which Im...sure should be safe. xD

I'm about to cry of excitement from all thee new shield stun pressure options.bpocket is now UBER viable. So, in correlation to the axe followups, you'd JC a held item to axe while they are shielding to be safe as well as just throw an "unholdable" pocketed projectile/item to axe for a shield break/low shield?

 

[JohnnyB]

I have some bad news. It seems like there is a different formula for shieldstun on projectiles. It's (damage / 3.5)+ 2, not (damage / 1.75) + 2 like everything else. In many cases that's going to almost match the old formula of (damage / 2.56). Any hopes of finding new frame traps and combos with pocket might be out the window.

In addition to that when you look at things like max damage fair (7%) and fsmash (15%), we only end up with one extra frame of shieldstun while sinilar non-projectile moves would get 3-5 extra frames. Add that to the decrease in shieldpush and shieldlock, and these moves might actually be less safe than before.

I know it's not technically a nerf, but compared to most of the cast, we seem to have gotten much less benefit from the new mechanics.

 

[Darklink401]

I have some bad news. It seems like there is a different formula for shieldstun on projectiles. It's (damage / 3.5)+ 2, not (damage / 1.75) + 2 like everything else. In many cases that's going to almost match the old formula of (damage / 2.56). Any hopes of finding new frame traps and combos with pocket might be out the window.

In addition to that when you look at things like max damage fair (7%) and fsmash (15%), we only end up with one extra frame of shieldstun while sinilar non-projectile moves would get 3-5 extra frames. Add that to the decrease in shieldpush and shieldlock, and these moves might actually be less safe than before.

I know it's not technically a nerf, but compared to most of the cast, we seem to have gotten much less benefit from the new mechanics.

I thought it was proven that it depended on a few certain things, but the only Villager projectile that had less benefit on shield, was dash attack

 

[Moosseff]

The only out of sheild optionI use is Nair but I need to expand my comfort zone and use more options...but I dont really know too many out of sheild options :/

 

[Mtn64]

The only out of sheild optionI use is Nair but I need to expand my comfort zone and use more options...but I dont really know too many out of sheild options :/

JC USmash, FTilt, Utilt, DAir, and empty hopping away are good. Oh and OoS axe can kill.

 

[RAzul]

JC USmash, FTilt, Utilt, DAir, and empty hopping away are good. Oh and OoS axe can kill.

Yeah dude, villager has hella good options OoS.

 

[arncakes]

I don't think this was really a nerf or a buff for Villager. If anything, a minor buff. His Jab and Dtilt are the best for shield pressure from my experience (axe is too situational, but amazing if you have it).

A tomahawk jabx2 to strong Dtilt does tons of shield damage, and causes opponents to run away (or a shield break if they are dumb enough to hold shield for 2 dtilts).

If you manage to get it, the opponent will most likely start jumping over Lloid to avoid further shield damage. So, if you can pressure their shield with Dtilt and scare them you should be able to put on huge damage with slingshots as they will likely start jumping much more to avoid shielding. If it all works out, once they have a healthy shield again you can end it with a b-throw or axe shield break, because they will definitely not be jumping anymore. It's a nice cycle

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

I don't think this was really a nerf or a buff for Villager. If anything, a minor buff. His Jab and Dtilt are the best for shield pressure from my experience (axe is too situational, but amazing if you have it).

A tomahawk jabx2 to strong Dtilt does tons of shield damage, and causes opponents to run away (or a shield break if they are dumb enough to hold shield for 2 dtilts).

If you manage to get it, the opponent will most likely start jumping over Lloid to avoid further shield damage. So, if you can pressure their shield with Dtilt and scare them you should be able to put on huge damage with slingshots as they will likely start jumping much more to avoid shielding. If it all works out, once they have a healthy shield again you can end it with a b-throw or axe shield break, because they will definitely not be jumping anymore. It's a nice cycle

Jab to D-Tilt on Shield, I never thought of that. Smart...

 

[RAzul]

I don't think this was really a nerf or a buff for Villager. If anything, a minor buff. His Jab and Dtilt are the best for shield pressure from my experience (axe is too situational, but amazing if you have it).

A tomahawk jabx2 to strong Dtilt does tons of shield damage, and causes opponents to run away (or a shield break if they are dumb enough to hold shield for 2 dtilts).

If you manage to get it, the opponent will most likely start jumping over Lloid to avoid further shield damage. So, if you can pressure their shield with Dtilt and scare them you should be able to put on huge damage with slingshots as they will likely start jumping much more to avoid shielding. If it all works out, once they have a healthy shield again you can end it with a b-throw or axe shield break, because they will definitely not be jumping anymore. It's a nice cycle

Well, personally I make FULL usage out of the axe in numerous ways because I feel it's under developed in the way it's used by many Vill mains, but ya my opinion. In regards to what you said about the shield dwindling options, (to clarify here) when you you say "tomahawk" to 2x jab, DTilt, you're implying to cross up bair with the correlating followups? I'm sorry, I always get fuzzy when "tomahawk" is mentioned. If so, that's amazing and in general, I greatly appreciate this info.

 

[arncakes]

Well, personally I make FULL usage out of the axe in numerous ways because I feel it's under developed in the way it's used by many Vill mains, but ya my opinion. In regards to what you said about the shield dwindling options, (to clarify here) when you you say "tomahawk" to 2x jab, DTilt, you're implying to cross up bair with the correlating followups? I'm sorry, I always get fuzzy when "tomahawk" is mentioned. If so, that's amazing and in general, I greatly appreciate this info.

The axe is really good, but against an aggressive player the only time you will really have it is right after a kill or if you hit them off stage. If you are playing someone campy though, the axe is amazing. It just depends on the situation in my opinion.

Basically if you are in the air and someone is holding shied anticipating you to land on them with an aerial, you can fall to the ground and jab instead as they won't be able to punish you jabbing their shield. Most characters would drop down and grab instead, but since Villager has a slow grab, his jab works great instead.

You could shorthop bair near them to bait them to try and punish or bait shield as well if that's what you mean.

 

[RAzul]

The axe is really good, but against an aggressive player the only time you will really have it is right after a kill or if you hit them off stage. If you are playing someone campy though, the axe is amazing. It just depends on the situation in my opinion.

Basically if you are in the air and someone is holding shied anticipating you to land on them with an aerial, you can fall to the ground and jab instead as they won't be able to punish you jabbing their shield. Most characters would drop down and grab instead, but since Villager has a slow grab, his jab works great instead.

You could shorthop bair near them to bait them to try and punish or bait shield as well if that's what you mean.

I totally agree with you man. Actually, in the air, I try to catch air dodges with it as wrk as when I chase them off stage. I bair them with a loud to fair and then whip it out if I have it. Most times, especially if the tree is on the opposite side of the map, they forget.

 

[Darklink401]

Jab to D-Tilt on Shield, I never thought of that. Smart...

Jab is not safe on shield, unless you're doing it into jab 2. So if you jab someone's shield, I suggest just multijabbing till either they drop it, or try to roll.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

Jab is not safe on shield, unless you're doing it into jab 2. So if you jab someone's shield, I suggest just multijabbing till either they drop it, or try to roll.

I never said it was safe, I just implied that it is a good option when applying shield pressure.

 

[Darklink401]

I never said it was safe, I just implied that it is a good option when applying shield pressure.

But it's not.
Cuz it's not safe.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

But it's not.
Cuz it's not safe.

But it's not.
Cuz it's not safe.

You talking about mullti jab or just jabbing once or twice on shield?

 

[Darklink401]

You talking about mullti jab or just jabbing once or twice on shield?

Jabbing once or twice xD

 

[arncakes]

It's safe 90% of the time. People don't know when you're going to stop jabbing so they don't know when to drop shield and punish. So unless they make a hard read and guess when you're gonna stop jabbing, the d-tilt should come out and either hit them or their shield before they get you. If you are scared and trying to play safe, you could just keep jabbing shield instead because there isn't much they can do about it.

Just make sure not to jab the same amount of times every time

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

It's safe 90% of the time. People don't know when you're going to stop jabbing so they don't know when to drop shield and punish. So unless they make a hard read and guess when you're gonna stop jabbing, the d-tilt should come out and either hit them or their shield before they get you. If you are scared and trying to play safe, you could just keep jabbing shield instead because there isn't much they can do about it.

Just make sure not to jab the same amount of times every time

And make sure you stop jabbing before it pushes them back to far in their shield to the point where jab would start whiffing.

 

[Moosseff]

When I play villager I imagine every safe option they have and try to remove it. I play a very conditioning villager where you know you're going to get hit but you choose what you get hit by .-.

 

[RAzul]

It's safe 90% of the time. People don't know when you're going to stop jabbing so they don't know when to drop shield and punish. So unless they make a hard read and guess when you're gonna stop jabbing, the d-tilt should come out and either hit them or their shield before they get you. If you are scared and trying to play safe, you could just keep jabbing shield instead because there isn't much they can do about it.

Just make sure not to jab the same amount of times every time

Right. I need to remember to followup with DTilt after a shield pressure multi jab. Thanks for this.