What could have made Kirby mid tier or top tier?

[kingPiano]

So a while back I decided to give all the characters a try on a competitive level (that I had never used before). It was Kirby's turn a month and a half ago and I'm still playing him because he's so much fun and better than I remember. I'm actually finding that I have a much easier time against top tiers; except fox, than even when I use my Mario (and I used Mario heavily as my secondary for like 2-3 years).

I was initially only to spend a month using Kirby, but he's grown on me.....like a fungus. An adorable nerfed fungus.

Anyways here's my dream for what would have been a great Kirby in Melee:

1) Increased Aerial and Ground Mobility
SDR changed these, so nothing surprising or interesting here.

2) Air Puff
Kirby should have had his ability to puff out air projectiles while in air multi-jumping. Would have resolved his predictable easy to guard recovery. Could have mapped Z to this.

3) Copies that royally sucked, instead they should have been...
Peach - Turnips
Fox - Shine
Kirby - Now I think it would have been super interesting if when you absorb Kirby you could get a random ability from the actual Kirby series and it would last a limited time. You could even get the UFO ability, it'd be like 1/500 chance or something
Link - Boomerang
YL - Bomb
Jigglypuff - Pound
Roy/Marth - Counter
Yoshi - Egg Toss
G&W - Judge, but chef is already pretty awesome

Also as mentioned in the Kirby absorb section, would have been cool to have a small RNG chance to get those Dreamland abilities when you swallow > absorb any character.


4) Down B should have been Mirror ability to reflect projectiles and attacks, or it should have just had less start up cool-down on the rock

5) A lot of changes to the regular moves that they already did in SDR

6) F/B throw shouldn't be inescapable as they have it in SDR (sort of OP), but instead Kirby should just stop the animation when they break free.

 

[metaXzero]

Give him everything he has in Project M. I think that's basically SDR Kirby with a hammer that kills, an Up-B that can also be used horizontally, and a dash attack that can be land cancelled off platforms

 

[JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)]

A few things that could also make Kirby better are the following:

Better Dash Attack: Kirby's dash attack in this game is just really bad in my opinion. If the current dash attack was replaced with the one from 64, it would have more utility.
Less Startup on Down-Air: This change would make the move a bit faster to come out and a bit less punishable.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Make Nair have great knockback instead of allowing it to exist as some wet noodle Roy-esque abomination. Balance it by making the high knockback only 2-3 frames or so, sexkick-esque. It would give a better payoff for the sort of approach investment Nair requires and would give him a decent way to end combos assuming he gained Puff's aerial mobility.

 

[wuffie]

Here are some things I've come up with:

• Buff his ground mobility and his grounded moves in general so he has a neutral game to speak of
• As for aerials:
  • Give uair either a bigger hitbox or better startup
  • Make nair frame 1
  • Give dair better startup and make its landing hitbox always knock down, even through crouch cancels
  • Make fair jump cancelable after the first hit
• Make fthrow inescapable, but replace bthrow with Fighter Kirby's backthrow. It would work like Pikachu's backthrow.
• Stone slides if you're dashing
• Dash attack becomes multi-hit, final hit has extra knockback. Much safer on shield and combos into the grab cancel.
• Pressing A while inhaling somebody lets you grab them instead, similar to Throw Kirby, giving you an ordinary grab on the ground and a unique grab with its own separate throws in midair

 

[t!MmY]

Sakurai took everything that was good about Kirby in SSB(64) and reduced it to a pathetic reincarnation. He obviously didn't take into account what the new mechanics/physics would have upon all the nerfs to Kirby (or if he did, then he's just a sadistic killjoy). Nerfing Kirby's D-air from 64 to Melee, for instance, was unnecessary because Sakurai also included Meteor Canceling. This effectively double-nerfed one of Kirby's best KO options.

To make Kirby more viable in the Melee meta, he definitely needs greater mobility, both on the ground and in the air. He doesn't have to have Jigglypuff's aerial speed or Falcons run speed, but at least enough so that it feels like you can move with him. Aerial mobility would help him with recovering back to stage.

Speaking of recovery, Kirby's recovery is garbage. His five mid-air jumps are almost worthless with his current air speed, but even with an aerial speed boost he'd still need something more than that awful Final Cutter to get back onto the stage. He practically has a big sign that reads "Gimp my recovery, plz". If anything, give his aerial Hammer a horizontal trajectory that allows him to knock would-be attacks away. If that's all the Hammer did it would already be ten times better than it's current iteration.

Next up, let him get KOs with his Smash attacks. There's no reason they should be weak as soggy biscuits and then have sourspots that do even less knockback/damage. Buff them up so that when you land one of them you get a KO at around 100% minimum. For a character that gets KO'd routinely under 100% netting KO's around 100% shouldn't be OP in the least, especially considering how hard those Smash Attacks are to land on anyone with half a brain.

Intangibility on his aerials and tilts would a good start. I'd even go so far as to say increase the hitbox sizes as well. Up Air, for instance, is a nice strong attack but you might as well be hitting with Jigglypuff's Rest with how big the hitbox size is. I believe he has some invincibility on some of these attacks already, but you'd be hard pressed to tell where and when. Instead, take some pointers from Peach.

Let's not forget about Kirby's atrocious Special Attacks. They're so bad, it would probably be easier to just give him new Special Attacks altogether. But if we are working with what we have, then Swallow would have to have massive buffs. The reason is because this is Kirby's signature move, so it should be prominent among his repertoire. Start-up frames should be about on par with a normal Grab (somewhere in the range of 6 to 10). You should be able to Copy or Star Shot almost immediately after the opponent is in Kirby's mouth. Mashing to break out of the Inhale should be easy to do (and remain unaffected by Damage levels) thus toning down the Swallowcide shenanigans. Mashing to break out of a Star Shot should be like mashing out of a Grab and should be highly affected by damage levels (making it so a Star Shot can KO off the side at 100% with no mashing). Hats that Kirby gains from Copying should be highly prized and very useful (to go into detail about that would take a post unto itself).

Stone is sad and terrible. It barely KO's even at higher percents, but it leaves Kirby completely open when he misses the hit, so it's only real use is to get back down from the air faster but only when it's safe to do so. Since this is the case, make it Jump-Cancelable and it should take more damage before being broken. This would allow Kirby to switch to Stone form, take a hit, and then jump out and counter attack. Before anyone goes crazy about a jump-canceled Stone, it would still probably be a terrible move: consider the incredibly long start-up time to execute the Stone. The jump-cancel would obviously not be as fast as a JC-shine... the Stone wouldn't even have a hitbox at that time. XD

Hammer (ground) should be a super-strong hit. Landing a sweetspotted Hammer should basically be a OHKO like Jiggly's Rest. Comboing into a OHKO Hammer could be a thing, but, at the very least, if a player has better prediction skills than Nostradamus and can actually land a sweetspotted Hammer on someone, they should be given something stronger than the average Smash Attack (as well as a standing ovation). The sour-spot on the Hammer should also be a KO option, but just a regular KO option (probably netting a KO around 100%), because landing even a sour-spot Hammer is hard enough to do.

Final Cutter it just bad. I don't even really know what to say about it. It could be like Dolphin Slash (speed and trajectory), that way Kirby could have an Out-of-Shield option. Take away it's Meteor Smash hitbox and just knock opponents away with the initial upwards swing (hitting with the Meteor Smash is actually worse than not hitting the opponent at all). Also, give Kirby some horizontal movement with this thing. For a move that is almost worthless outside of option as a recovery move it should at least be able to be used to recover.

Please make N-air hit on frame 3. Or at least frame 6. Same with F-air. Or, better yet, just give Kirby back his N-air and F-air from SSB(64). And give him back his SSB(64) D-air, since it can be Meteor Canceled in Melee. Even if it was an insta-death no-cancel D-air again, then Kirby would at least have something off-stage to use.

 

[Comet7]

he would be around mario's level if his moves (including throws) had slightly less startup, slightly less endlag, slightly bigger hitboxes, and adjusted knockback scaling. if he got higher terminal velocity in the air and ground along with this, he would be around doc/luigi level (i'd say pikachu but kirby doesn't have a solid answer to CC). those two things would give kirby more tools (with higher quality too) in neutral and barely give him combos. making down throw usable would also be huge since it's awful.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

t!mmy's alive whoa :0

 

[t!MmY]

t!mmy's alive whoa :0

Yes, I am still alive. It takes more than tricothecene poisoning to take me out.

 

[Silvia]

Definitely give Kirby back that fire dash thing when he speeds up and make the up b more powerful.

 

[F. Stein]

Down air being a true spike like falco's Dair, that would make kirby have SO much more respect.

 

[SSBM_Lan]

Make Kirby faster, slightly bigger and stronger hitboxes, better jumps, and make it so that you can jump cancel his down-B.

 

[F. Stein]

Make his Dair a 5 hit version of Falco's Dair, and make it so you can't escape his downthrow. Fix those two things and he's god. Like literally straight up god. He'd combo people across the stage and bounce FFs and floaties alike across each stage and then spike their hopeless faces into oblivion.

 

[EasilyDistracted54]

Not being kirby.

Give him most of his traits from PM, and increase everything. Faster dash speed, air speed, and faster attacks, and some throws with combo potential.
Might as well give him a better dash attack to.

 

[Mr Snak3_]

Maybe allowing up b to be cancelled into a free fall or allow only jumps after a cancel

 

[iAmMatt]

1.) Sex kick nair
2.) less startup/ending lag for neutral b
3.) less startup lag for fsmash
4.) more horizontal mobility on double, triple, quadruple jumps

EDIT: being able to jump if knocked out of upb

 

[Uchihadark7]

His b&f throws suck, so if they were changed to be more useful and harder (if not impossible) to escape, he would be a lot better.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Not having 0 jumps from the jumps he does with his throws. Better non-wavedash/roll ground movement. Air speed. Other cutter abilities than final cutter, somehow. Decrease inhale's startup, make his moves actually seem like the way the exist in his games (dash attack should be fast, for instance).

Or just make him 64 Kirby Kirby as he exists in any other Smash game.

 

[Shreke]

lol u just described pm kirby

 

[ChivalRuse]

When he inhales and steals your power, he heals for 30%.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Kirby is almost ok as it is, the moves should be kept as they are in my opinion, they just need to be balanced in stats, not changed completely.
To make it good all what is needed is reducing the lag (startup and endlag) of almost everything, give higher priority to some moves (inhale, rotating hammer, and some others), make his dodges a bit more effective (Samus is invincible for many frames while rolling, Kirby is almost always vulerable even while rolling and his roll is shorter), buff some attacks (ground hammer and final cutter), and make the dash attack faster (it doesn't make sense that in fireball form he's slower than running) and make it like Little Mac moves, that you can take damage but you aren't knocked back, and also impossible to grab during this attack; air hammer should also have a bit more horizontal control and should be used as a recovery option like Falcon's side B (but less efficient).

If anything, if we just want to modify the moveset completely, I'd remove the 5 jumps and give him the regular 2 jumps as everyone else, and replace final cutter with floating (limited time) and the possibility to cancel the move shooting a puff of air that does damage when you cancel it, like in the real Kirby games (it would work similar to Villager's balloons) but make it able to restart the floating after a puff, until the stamina time is finished, and maybe replace the ground hammer with the Wheel ability, similar to Yoshi's rolling egg, to balance the slow movement speed of the character;
The fire dash should be faster, stronger and have a barrier like I said previously, and should also have a stamina system, so that if you use it too much it will become shorter and more useless (this is true in some Kirby games too).
And he should be the only character that does damage when free-falling after an air dodge, bouncing on the enemy (but also on ground, making him more vulnerable in order to balance), like in Kirby games; after shooting a star bullet while in air (or if the enemy frees himself from an inhale), Kirby should free-fall to make Kirbycide impossible (you can't recover in free-fall state).

 

[Comet7]

~

wrong forum bro

 

[Mr Snak3_]

And guess what magicscrumpy uploaded a few hours ago?