What character has changed the most from their first Smash appearance?

[Door Key Pig]

In a game collecting all Smash characters together with moveset updates made here and there, and where people criticise X character for having such an outdated or still cloned moveset that doesn't do them justice, what is the Smash character(s) that has objectively changed the most in moveset from their debut in one of the previous games? I'm talking how Jigglypuff was initially a semi-clone of Kirby according to SmashWiki and the differences with Olimar in Brawl. Is there such a different-enough moveset and playstyle as to feel "missing" in Ultimate's Everyone is Here?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

, easily. Went from being with different stats to borrowing one of 's moves and having his own distinct normal attacks, to basically inheriting his brother's former down special, and eventually getting his own new throw attacks based on one of his games.

You'd almost wouldn't believe he was a clone.

 

[meleebrawler]

Went from a lumbering, bestial brute born out of bile towards his decaying menace in his home series that was too slow and clunky to do anything other than throw wild haymakers and hoping for the best, to a terrifyingly fast for his size humanoid wrestler turtle. Maybe edges him out in number of moves changed, but the difference in how Bowser was played then and now is like night and day.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Link.

He 1UPs everyone by literally changing into another person depending on the iteration. To this date, there have been five versions of Link in Smash.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Luigi is a good call here. I think its noteworthy that Mario himself has changed a decent amount too, overtime. I wouldn't say many of his old aspects are "missing" though. One of my favorite things about Ultimate is that Dr. Mario, Pichu, etc. really feel closer to their original iterations than their base-character counterparts. They've been re-implemented for the first (or second) time since their initial entry and most things haven't changed. I think it's amazing that in a way, Toon Link plays like a Brawl character, Young Link plays like a Melee character, and that's allowed for them to make Link an Ultimate character (So to speak).

If that sounds vague, a nice example is 's ability to z-drop bombs, a tech that was essential to his kit in Melee. Still salty about the lack of Dair meteor though.

 

[Oddball]

This is what Pit looked like in Melee.

It was only just a trophy, but still that's one heck of a change.

 

[1FC0]

Charizard changed a lot, he started out as Pokeball Pokemon back in Smash 64.

R.O.B. also got changed a lot. In SSBB he is ungimpable and has a Ftilt that outranges every move that Marth can do except for Shield Breaker.

 

[Perkilator]

Ignoring what was already said:
- (OBVS. He used to be a boss.)
- (He not only slowly derived from being a last-minute clone, and then FINALLY got his damn sword out)
- (He’s been hitting the Gym since Melee, and it shows)

 

[Guynamednelson]

From healing and not fighting to fighting and not healing.

 

[Perkilator]

From healing and not fighting to fighting and not healing.

As Thanos puts it…

Also, from using some of her Phazon powers to using NONE of them.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Blastoise and Venusaur changed a lot as well. They devolved into Squirtle and Ivysaur respectively.

 

[Zinith]

You often don't think my boi until you do a head to head comparison...

 

[Deleted member]

Answering this question in terms of competitive play...from this to this a great example. He went from being powerful in N64 but going into Melee he had been plagued with so many nerfs that he was basically unusable. Since then, has never been able to repeat his performance from the original Smash. Similarly, my girl got this treatment transitioning from Smash 4 to Ultimate.

Sayonara

 

[Perkilator]

You often don't think my boi until you do a head to head comparison...

And then in Ultimate, ‘s idle animation emulates his idle animation in Yoshi’s Island almost to a tee.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Hmm... This is such a hard discussion for me to make to choose which character changed the most in the course of the series. In general I would say Ridley because he went from:

- Being a background sprite in Planet Zebes in 64.

- Being a trophy and in the opening cutscene in Melee.

- Being a boss twice in Brawl.

- Being a stage hazard in Pyrosphere in Smash 4.

- And finally becoming playable in Ultimate.

And to top that, all of his appearances in those games were VERY different from each other. His design I would say has changed the most in the course of the whole Smash franchise.

 

[Lenidem]

I think it's amazing that in a way, Toon Link plays like a Brawl character, Young Link plays like a Melee character, and that's allowed for them to make Link an Ultimate character (So to speak).

That's interesting, I had never seen it like that!

 

[Quillion]

Went from a lumbering, bestial brute born out of bile towards his decaying menace in his home series that was too slow and clunky to do anything other than throw wild haymakers and hoping for the best, to a terrifyingly fast for his size humanoid wrestler turtle.

I honestly hate what they did to Bowser since Smash 4. I much prefer the primal monster Bowser. I wish they just buffed that portrayal rather than alienating people.

It's equally bad as giving Ganondorf his sword.

 

[Sour Supreme]

It's equally bad as giving Ganondorf his sword.

Wat.

The sword changed up Ganon's Smash Attacks giving him more range for KO's that compensate for his lacking speed. They further differentiated him from Falcon while still maintaining the core fundamentals of his moveset that have been around since Melee.

Thats a win/win to me.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Wat.

The sword changed up Ganon's Smash Attacks giving him more range for KO's that compensate for his lacking speed. They further differentiated him from Falcon while still maintaining the core fundamentals of his moveset that have been around since Melee.

Thats a win/win to me.

Quillion insists that there's a huge crowd who doesn't like how Bowser and Ganon have changed over the years.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Quillion insists that there's a huge crowd who doesn't like how Bowser and Ganon have changed over the years.

And yet there are vocal groups who want both characters changed even more drastically to be more true to their mainline-series portrayals. I feel like both of those characters are great examples of how a fighter can be changed to be both more fun and more viable while still staying true to their original Smash iterations. If you want Bowser to remain a **** character, I guess people are entitled to that. But there's a reason both Ganon and Bowser are more competitively relevant in Ultimate than ever before.

 

[Denden64]

I think Luigi has most changes

 

[1FC0]

I honestly hate what they did to Bowser since Smash 4. I much prefer the primal monster Bowser. I wish they just buffed that portrayal rather than alienating people.

I agree. They should just have buffed old Bowser.

It's equally bad as giving Ganondorf his sword.

I disagree. Ganondorf's sword is great. I do not care that he never uses it canonically. He uses it in a Nintendo tech demo and that's good enough for me, especially since the sword is very fitting on Ganondorf. Even though he should use more magic based attacks since he's supposed to be a wizard.

 

[meleebrawler]

You can't make me believe that making old Bowser move at the speeds he does now wouldn't look really janky.

Besides, Giga Bowser has always remained as a reminder of that incarnation (be it as Final Smash or boss) and is made all the more distinct for it.

 

[Superxav12]

Link has gone though alot of changes like his boomerang, arrows, bombs, and overall design. He even has the sword beam now (i never saw that coming)

 

[1FC0]

You can't make me believe that making old Bowser move at the speeds he does now wouldn't look really janky.

First of all I disagree that it would janky. It's just the same animation but moving quicker forward. Second of all, I actually think it would be better if he was still one of the slower characters but instead just got a few quick moves like a quicker Jab or Quicker Koopa Claw / Flying Slam.

Besides, Giga Bowser has always remained as a reminder of that incarnation (be it as Final Smash or boss) and is made all the more distinct for it.

How often do we see Giga Bowser in competitive matches? In fact, even in casual matches the best one can get out of him are a few punches. That does not come even close to compensating for the loss of cool Bowser.

Also by hating on the Bowser that's exclusive to Melee and Brawl you are dishonouring your name! Shame on you!

 

[meleebrawler]

First of all I disagree that it would janky. It's just the same animation but moving quicker forward. Second of all, I actually think it would be better if he was still one of the slower characters but instead just got a few quick moves like a quicker Jab or Quicker Koopa Claw / Flying Slam.


How often do we see Giga Bowser in competitive matches? In fact, even in casual matches the best one can get out of him are a few punches. That does not come even close to compensating for the loss of cool Bowser.

Also by hating on the Bowser that's exclusive to Melee and Brawl you are dishonouring your name! Shame on you!

What, that inexplicable skid that went unused in Subspace Emissary due to how ridiculous it looks, instead just putting his walk animation in fast-forward?

The thunderous stomps of a monster turtle in full sprint, humanoid or not, is far more intimidating than one that makes merely moving around in any way a huge burden.

Not even Project M's heavily armoured and hugely powered Bowser could salvage his slowness. You need decent movement options if you fight primarily with melee no matter how big or small you are.

 

[UserKev]

Luigi has drastically changed, even if inconsistently. Bowser is 2nd since he could barely speak English pre-Smash. I agree with Ridley since Smash made him basically became a good guy.

 

[Lenidem]

I agree with Ridley since Smash made him basically became a good guy.

... What? How? When?

 

[1FC0]

What, that inexplicable skid that went unused in Subspace Emissary due to how ridiculous it looks, instead just putting his walk animation in fast-forward?

I'm not saying the skid is good, it's actually the only thing that the new Bowser improves upon cosmetically. But as you said SSE Bowser did that too so there really was no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater like they did in SSB4.

The thunderous stomps of a monster turtle in full sprint, humanoid or not, is far more intimidating than one that makes merely moving around in any way a huge burden.

If you want intimidating, then how about beast Bowser with the SSE run? He could be fast, have a normal run, and be more beastly all at once. It's a bit strange that you are aware of SSE Bowser's run yet seem to think that beastly Bowser must have the skid and cannot have a normal run.

Not even Project M's heavily armoured and hugely powered Bowser could salvage his slowness. You need decent movement options if you fight primarily with melee no matter how big or small you are.

Again, there is no need for beastly Bowser to be slow. You're kind of reminding me of the "Ridley is too big crowd". Except now it's "beastly Bowser is too slow". Ridley could be scaled down, and beastly Bowser can be sped up.

 

[WRECKITROLF]

I am surprised no one has mentioned Sheik. They probably intended for her to be a fast combo character, whilst Zelda would be switched to for the kill, but ironically enough Sheik was way better at securing kills with her edgeguarding capabilities. When they finally made her worse at killing, they separated her from Zelda and progressively nerfed her to the Ultimate Sheik, and made Joker, which is Sheik but with Zelda (Arsene) as an extra ice climber. How unfortunate. At least her bouncing fish is fun to land, even though we lost the trolling whip...

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I am surprised no one has mentioned Sheik. They probably intended for her to be a fast combo character, whilst Zelda would be switched to for the kill, but ironically enough Sheik was way better at securing kills with her edgeguarding capabilities. When they finally made her worse at killing, they separated her from Zelda and progressively nerfed her to the Ultimate Sheik, and made Joker, which is Sheik but with Zelda (Arsene) as an extra ice climber. How unfortunate. At least her bouncing fish is fun to land, even though we lost the trolling whip...

And don't forget to mention that her original appearance was lifted of Ocarina of Time, then in Brawl and Smash 4 it was based of concept art from Twilight Princess, and finally, in Ultimate they based her off the Sheikah armor from Breath of the Wild. That's good art evolution for a character that hasn't made an appearance in another main Zelda game.

 

[Quillion]

You can't make me believe that making old Bowser move at the speeds he does now wouldn't look really janky.

Besides, Giga Bowser has always remained as a reminder of that incarnation (be it as Final Smash or boss) and is made all the more distinct for it.

Okay, maybe old Bowser could lose the run, but I don't see why they can't speed up all of his animations.

 

[meleebrawler]

Okay, maybe old Bowser could lose the run, but I don't see why they can't speed up all of his animations.

When you play Fast Smash/Lightning Melee, do all the sped up animations there look natural to you?

 

[Quillion]

When you play Fast Smash/Lightning Melee, do all the sped up animations there look natural to you?

Hey, they can speed up Shulk's animations with a massive, heavy-looking sword. It can work for Bowser.

 

[1FC0]

Also, they do not have to speed up the whole of all animations. It's just about the start-up lag and end lag of his moves. I think it's kind of ridiculous to think that a hunched over Bowser needs to be slow or look ridiculous. Yoshi's quick and hunched over in the first 3 Smash games. And Bowser is big and quick since Smash 4. So a character can be big and quick and a character can be hunched forward and quick, both without looking ridiculous. But supposedly as soon as he's big, hunched over, and quick then he must look ridiculous. It;s like how people thought that super small characters like Olimar can be scaled up to like 100 times their size yet scaling a character down without making it look ridiculous is impossible.

Hunched over Bowser can be buffed like any other character can. There is no gameplay reason why Bowser needs to stand up straight. There are valid cosmetical reasons, I'm not saying that beast Bowser objectively is better since I know it's just a matter of opinion. But pretending that beastly Bowser must be slow and bad gameplay-wise just because of his posture is dumb IMO.

Besides it's not like Sash characters move realistic in general. They all move unrealistically quick. Ever saw how Wario moves? Or how crazy quick the Links are with pulling out their weapons? That is even more stupid but it works well for Smash because every character moves in highly unrealistic ways.

 

[meleebrawler]

Hey, they can speed up Shulk's animations with a massive, heavy-looking sword. It can work for Bowser.

a) Shulk's attack animations don't speed up, only his running.
b) His increased speed is caused by godly power pushing his body past normal limits
c) He is actually capable of running. Same deal with hunched Yoshi.

Bowser's SSE "run" keeps getting brought up, but that honestly looks silly too, just slightly less silly than the skidding. It'd be one thing if his movement was comparable to Melee or Brawl, but...

Also, they do not have to speed up the whole of all animations. It's just about the start-up lag and end lag of his moves. I think it's kind of ridiculous to think that a hunched over Bowser needs to be slow or look ridiculous. Yoshi's quick and hunched over in the first 3 Smash games. And Bowser is big and quick since Smash 4. So a character can be big and quick and a character can be hunched forward and quick, both without looking ridiculous. But supposedly as soon as he's big, hunched over, and quick then he must look ridiculous. It;s like how people thought that super small characters like Olimar can be scaled up to like 100 times their size yet scaling a character down without making it look ridiculous is impossible.

Hunched over Bowser can be buffed like any other character can. There is no gameplay reason why Bowser needs to stand up straight. There are valid cosmetical reasons, I'm not saying that beast Bowser objectively is better since I know it's just a matter of opinion. But pretending that beastly Bowser must be slow and bad gameplay-wise just because of his posture is dumb IMO.

Besides it's not like Sash characters move realistic in general. They all move unrealistically quick. Ever saw how Wario moves? Or how crazy quick the Links are with pulling out their weapons? That is even more stupid but it works well for Smash because every character moves in highly unrealistic ways.

Sorry, it's just that not too long ago you said this:

First of all I disagree that it would janky. It's just the same animation but moving quicker forward. Second of all, I actually think it would be better if he was still one of the slower characters but instead just got a few quick moves like a quicker Jab or Quicker Koopa Claw / Flying Slam.

We have a character that lives by the philosophy of slow movement but great frame data. It's and he's not too good either. Now imagine if he was fat too and had no long-ranged projectile or reflector.

Making Bowser closer to his modern depictions has given him longer limbs that not only increase the range of some of his old moves without relying on something like invisible disjoints, but also give greater flexibility in the moves he can use, especially with those involving legs. His new back air complements the coverage of his forward with great power compensating for less range compared to the old back air, neutral aerial cartwheel has more range and his new big double claw swipe in Ultimate finally gets rid of the old shell spin made redundant by Whirling Fortress.

 

[1FC0]

Sorry, it's just that not too long ago you said this:

I admit that I think that he would need to at least really run instead of just walking quickly. So I changed my mind on that animation. My point still stands though, there is no reason that Bowser could not have a proper run. Heavy characters have been know to run properly, hunched over characters have had proper runs, and characters with even shorter legs have had proper runs.

We have a character that lives by the philosophy of slow movement but great frame data. It's and he's not too good either. Now imagine if he was fat too and had no long-ranged projectile or reflector.

What are you getting at? A nerfed Dr. Mario would be bad? Sure, but we're talking about Bowser here. So let's make it more like Bowser. Imagine Dr. Mario, but without his long-range projectile and reflector, and with better range, better damage, better kill-power, better recovery, a quicker run, and also much heavier. Doesn't seem too bad. There is no reason why beast Bowser could not be like that. His claws look like they can reach pretty far especially if he leans over forward which obviously is no problem for beats Bowser.

Making Bowser closer to his modern depictions has given him longer limbs that not only increase the range of some of his old moves without relying on something like invisible disjoints

Same goes for his old design since he still had his claws which are not at all something like invisible disjoints.

but also give greater flexibility in the moves he can use, especially with those involving legs.

I agree here. If you like kicking Bowser than that's a pro in your book for wrestler Bowser. However, I prefer a Bowser who uses more beastly attacks like claw swipes, bites, fire breath, and the spikes on his shell. I prefer him to not use kicks and to not look like he would prefer kicks. So here you actually bring up something that's an advantage for beast Bowser IMO.

His new back air complements the coverage of his forward with great power compensating for less range compared to the old back air, neutral aerial cartwheel has more range and his new big double claw swipe in Ultimate finally gets rid of the old shell spin made redundant by Whirling Fortress.

He could just as well have relied on claw swipes which the old model could also do. Especially his Dsmash which actually are claw swipes now. Beast Bowser still has large arms and he's tall and leans over forward. As if that's not enough, in the Mario franchise limbs grow in size while attacking. So there is no reason why beast Bowser could not have great range. Just look at SSBB R.O.B.'s Ftilt, it outranges every move that Marth has not named Shield Breaker yet does not look silly at all.


TL;DR both Bowsers could be good and have a good looking fast run. What look you prefer is just a matter of opinion on cosmetics.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

- went from being a clone to his own moveset
- became more of an actual brawler with some wrestling incorportated
- dat attire
- take the clone out of them and make them more unique

 

[Kokiden]

Link.

He's actually the best he's ever been in Smash in Ultimate. He wasn't good before, but he is amazing now in the right hands.

 

[nocturn333]

I went back to Brawl recently and I'm surprised by how different Bowser's moves are. I like his new dash but I would prefer he used his shell and claws a bit more.


Seriously what was that sliding dash supposed to be?