What can Bayo do in disadvantaged state?

[haxfactory]

I'm struggling to land with Bayo. The people I play against are primarily Cloud, Marth, and Fox so the ability to land once I'm hit has really become a problem. I know the obvious thing is just getting to ledge, but I can't possibly just go to ledge every time I lose an exchange, it's just going to get me read. Plus, getting off ledge against those characters is definitely more difficult than the average character and they know better than to challenge my sharking at this point. Going to a platform against them isn't very useful either because they will just chase me down with up airs, and I can't trade with Cloud or Marth because of their disjoints. The neutral game is fine, the punish game is fine, but when I get hit things go downhill fast. I understand I could try to Witch Time them, but a whiffed Witch Time is also basically a death sentence against these characters most of the time. Watching VoDs I mostly see people pressure shields with dABK and use the bounce of the shield to land or try to ABK through them and bair. I don't think that would really work against Marth or Cloud at all.

Any tips for disadvantaged state?

 

[Flamegeyser]

Don't forget to use fair, side b, and up b mixups on shield. Also to remove special lag you can shoot neutral b before you land, time a witch time so that the lag is done as you land (predictable but better than nothing), or throw an item if you can find one. You may already know those but beyond doing what you're doing I don't know how to help you.

 

[haxfactory]

Yeah, I guess I either just need to mix it up more or just put more faith into options opening up when I pressure shields. It seems like Bayo gets most of her openings when people stupidly drop shield against her.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Yeah, I guess I either just need to mix it up more or just put more faith into options opening up when I pressure shields. It seems like Bayo gets most of her openings when people stupidly drop shield against her.

Well there's certain times when the opponent plain can't shield, like landing, being on the ledge, or while getting grabbed. Don't be so negative, there are plenty of ways to find openings, and plenty more that are actually impossible for the opponent to close.

 

[haxfactory]

Well if my problem is landing my opponent is not getting grabbed (unless it's doubles) and they likely aren't on the ledge. There might be an opening if I can get to the ground before them if they are chasing me, but the issue with that is they are likely directly below me and sure I could dair to try to get to stage faster but it won't beat a disjointed up air, I could try to dABK in those situations though. Most of the time when attempting to land or return to stage from ledge, they have very little reason not to just shield and punish.

A good example of this is Captain Zack vs NED. NED really shouldn't be beating Captain Zack, but he cleanly 3-0ed him simply because every time Zack tried to recover he respected his options by just shielding. Zack went for his normal **** of just hitting the shield a bunch of times and every time he'd get hit once he landed. I've noticed the trend from watching Zack play that every time he loses badly it's to a player that just sits in shield to prevent him from doing anything when he comes off the ledge. Most people are still just getting hit by it so it doesn't seem to matter too much right now, but I could definitely see it being somewhat problematic once more people get some decent match up experience.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Don't commit as hard, then. Shielding is the way to beat bayo's landings after all, although sometimes if you dabk away and they don't expect it they will be too slow to punish it. You can almost always go to the ledge if that's the way you expect the interaction to go. If the worst you have to do to land more safely is to neutral b after dropping a kill combo, you're not in a super bad position.

 

[Glitchy_]

I'm not a Bayo main but this sounds like tomahawking would be a great thing to add to your gameplay.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I'm not a Bayo main but this sounds like tomahawking would be a great thing to add to your gameplay.

For sure, either for or against bayo.

 

[Zalezus]

Well if my problem is landing my opponent is not getting grabbed (unless it's doubles) and they likely aren't on the ledge. There might be an opening if I can get to the ground before them if they are chasing me, but the issue with that is they are likely directly below me and sure I could dair to try to get to stage faster but it won't beat a disjointed up air, I could try to dABK in those situations though. Most of the time when attempting to land or return to stage from ledge, they have very little reason not to just shield and punish.

A good example of this is Captain Zack vs NED. NED really shouldn't be beating Captain Zack, but he cleanly 3-0ed him simply because every time Zack tried to recover he respected his options by just shielding. Zack went for his normal **** of just hitting the shield a bunch of times and every time he'd get hit once he landed. I've noticed the trend from watching Zack play that every time he loses badly it's to a player that just sits in shield to prevent him from doing anything when he comes off the ledge. Most people are still just getting hit by it so it doesn't seem to matter too much right now, but I could definitely see it being somewhat problematic once more people get some decent match up experience.

That said, he's pretty good at pressure from the ledge, and often just kills the **** out of people because of the situations he gets away with.

I think one of the reasons Zack started to aggressively plank the ledge was that players with the patience to wait out your landing option in shield are going to be likely to space a bit medium-close to the ledge. He started abusing the fact that people love to shield to try and do shield damage/poke, forcing them to retreat or throw out a spaced hitbox to punish a repeat attempt. The irony of all this is that the "Bayo counter" is to abuse shield to avoid getting combo'd to death or Witch Timed in the first place.

Thus the meta game has achieved true RPS.