What buffs/nerfs/tweaks do you want?

KinGly

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#2
I'd love if Copy did at least 5%, and wavelanding out of Cutter Dash needs to be a thing again.
Not a Kirby player but I play against one every day, and I just want to ask why the hell up b spikes. I just want that to be a meteor.

Oh, and stone killing. Kirbys already hard enough to juggle without him having an armored kill move if you are too late on the up air
 

Shenanigan

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#3
Not a Kirby player but I play against one every day, and I just want to ask why the hell up b spikes. I just want that to be a meteor.

Oh, and stone killing. Kirbys already hard enough to juggle without him having an armored kill move if you are too late on the up air
Sounds like you're not respecting Kirby's options.
I'd love if Copy did at least 5%, and wavelanding out of Cutter Dash needs to be a thing again.
Adding damage to copy seems rather unnecessary when starshot does what, 9%? The point of copy is to take the ability, not rack up damage.

Personally I'd like at least a little bit of priority on dash attack. Currently it loses to most characters' jabs, which is pretty frustrating.
 

Phan7om

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#4
KinGly has a point tho.

Kirby as well as a lot of the cast still have WTF options, not OP or broken, just... WTF. Id love to get rid of Kirby's 3 or 4 wtf options (as i would want with every character), but im sure Kirby's would get very salty because they think they seem fine because its "really punishable" or something lol. In fact, I believe some people need to get very salty in order for this game to be perfect but thats another story. I have changed by buffs/nerfs list for a while and this is what i think right now would make him better designed. This is just my opinion. These do not include any changes to copy because of me being unsure about programming limits and difficulty.

Nerfs
-Dash attack does not land cancel (think DK), and overall length shortened to about 60%
-Armor removed from the startup of rock. Also make about 5 frames slower. (frame 20 from 15) (KinGly states why perfectly)
-If you mash out of inhale, opponent pops upwards similar to D3s inhale.

Buffs
-Run speed increased to somewhere between 1.6 - 1.65 from 1.5 (Ness/TL/Roy/Oli/Bowser speed)
-Air mobility increased to around .065 from .04
-Uthrow KB increase (kills most characters around 150% FD)
-Jab 1 should have the KB (and possibly damage) of Jab 2, Jab 2 KB around Sheik's Jab 1
-Dsmash startup decreased to frame 5
-Starshot and copy have a bit of hitstun frames to avoid being punishable on hit.
(along with a few other buffs to like Fair, Fthrow, overall range to certain moves, etc.)(in parentheses because idk what they should alter about them exactly)
 
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#5
I would gladly trade Stone and Final Cutter's cheese for an overall speed boost tbh.

Also, he could use an answer to CC-heavy characters. Perhaps a U-Tilt less spammable than 3.02 but with fast enough IASA to catch CC spam? D-Tilt having more BKB could work too.
 
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#6
Same here. The spike is nice to have, but the air speed boost alone would make it worth it. Plus I like to use the projectile part of Final Cutter for gimping from a distance, especially on spacies ^w^
 

benefluence

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#7
1) Normalize the stun/travel distance on copy. Several characters can mash out and punish kirby for copying (e.g. anybody who can DJC), and that just shouldn't happen. I'm not a big fan of how mashing out of starshot works either, but it's safe and affords some gimmicky mixups. Copy is just broken.

2) Fthrow is useless against good DI, and easy to DI on reaction. tweak it to either go more up or more out, or something. Just give it a purpose. I'd like to see it become an upwards combo throw, because

3) I want Up throw to be a kill throw. It doesn't have to be an absurdly powerful one, just give it enough KB scaling to KO floaties at percent where it's worth doing.

4) Let him airdodge out of cutter dash again.

As much as I love cutter spikes, I'm not opposed in principle to weeding out his gimmicks, although I don't think stone deserves to be hit that hard. He would definitely need compensatory buffs, though. He's already a little behind the power curve. That airspeed increase would be HUGE and I'd love it, but I feel like you might as well be wishing for real changes to Fox. It's just not gonna happen.
 

Shenanigan

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#8
Couple of things:
  1. That rock nerf would make it basically unusable
  2. The nerf to dash attack wouldn't make his approaches any worse
  3. The reverse grab on final cutter is dumb and I wouldn't be surprised if it's gone in 3.5
  4. That honestly might be too much aerial mobility, even if it would be great
Overall those would make Kirby a much better character simply from the increase in speed. I wouldn't nerf stone or buff down tilt though, they seem fine to me. as is. You essentially have to make a mistake to get hit by stone, and the ending is already incredibly punishable by most characters.
I would gladly trade Stone and Final Cutter's cheese for an overall speed boost tbh.

Also, he could use an answer to CC-heavy characters. Perhaps a U-Tilt less spammable than 3.02 but with fast enough IASA to catch CC spam? D-Tilt having more BKB could work too.
If your approaches are constantly getting cc'd mix in more swallow.
 

Shenanigan

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#10
I'm not quite sure if I understand what you mean. I guess I assumed you were approaching with something like fair and they were crouch canceling that and then punishing you. But if they're throwing out moves that beat your approaches then that's a totally different issue.
 

Shenanigan

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#12
I guess you could mix in things like waveland back or running up and crouching just outside their range. Anyway you should be using inhale late enough that they are unable to react to it, the same way as doing aerials as late as possible. Do you have a specific character or move your struggling with?
 
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#13
Not really. I just hate getting slapped for successfully attacking the other person, and no longer having a U-Tilt that stops them in their tracks. :p
 

Blue Warrior

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#17
Not a main, but you know what would be really cool, is if spit had scaled speed/distance. Maybe enough to be a kill move at certain percents? Star damage could also scale too.
 
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KinGly

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#18
You essentially have to make a mistake to get hit by stone, and the ending is already incredibly punishable by most characters.
While I agree that you have to make a mistake to get hit by box, that mistake will likely be pretty high and near the blast zone, and I don't believe the punish should be that bad for overextending/whiffing a juggle. Though I don't really care to debate that

My real problem is that it is actually difficult to get more accurate punishes of the end lag of box unless you are under Kirby on a platform (so you don't get hit by the landing hitboxes), or you read his drift after he pops out, and it is very difficult to catch him if he pops out in the air, given he can drift and that he can pop out at any time. I wouldn't increase the end lag, but box is too safe with the horizontal drift he gets afterwards.


Edit: my friend plays nothing but Kirby, and we've been playing against each other at least twice a week for the last year and a half, so I have a lot of knowledge fighting against Kirby, and thus I can see things from an outside perspective. As far as your claim that these nerfs would make box useless, let me pose the question of why kirby needs another way out of juggles that kills if the opponent isn't expecting it
 
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Soft Serve

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#19
You can also always just grab people that are ccing, or dair or max space air hammer. Kirby has a fantastic tomahawk grab game.


I think the only things kirby should lose is up b spiking/grabbing the ledge backwards for so long, it's silly.

Kirby also doesn't need buffs, he's really good lol. I think the only thing I'd change is more base knockback on fthrow so it puts them much further away. There's no real hope for comboing after it, because unless they don't have a pulse or don't know the MU, the optimal DI for all of kirby's throws to avoidfollow ups/get furthest away is the same. More BKB on fthrow would make it a better positional throw. Also if the waveland out of it felt smoother itd be amazing.

kirby doesn't need Buffs, expecially mobility ones. If kirby got better air mobility and a better dash, a case for top 10 could easily be made because a longer/faster dash distance would change so many MUs
 
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#20
Current Kirby would be fine if the rest of the roster had an honest mix of strengths/weaknesses like him. If characters like Fox, Falcon, ROB, Mario, Yoshi, Lucario, Diddy, G&W, and Roy only get baby nerfs/untouched in 3.6, I don't see why Kirby shouldn't be allowed to be brought closer to their level.
 
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Soft Serve

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#21
Kirby already has some of the best anti-approach tools in the game, if he got better tools to control neutral through mobility he'd be stupid. Its fine that he isn't a top tier character. I agree that Kirby has one of the best mixes of strength/weaknesses right now, although Mario/yoshi/Diddy are all already on his level in that aspect. The only thing holding Kirby back is his MU spread with the top characters, struggling vs fox and vs fast/strong disjoint characters (Imo GnW is kirby's worst MU by far, fox/marth are managable, roy feels almost even).
 

Shenanigan

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#23
I play against a G&W almost daily, and he's pretty terrible for Kirby. He combos pretty well even with sdi, and has an incredibly easy time securing kills. Down tilt kills around eighty on most stages iirc, and if he gets a grab at kill percents he can easily follow up with up b to fair. On top of that you can't really gimp him at all due to how high is up b goes and the fact that he can save his jump through multiple up b's. However I've never played played a good Toon Link so that could be just as bad and I wouldn't know.
 

Soft Serve

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#24
Really? I'm tempted to say Toon Link is harder than G&W.
Yeah we don't have any tink mains here, I'm one of the only ones that even dabbles in the character. I can see why its so bad, we have no way to deal with bomb camping, but at least we can gimp tink. Neutral is a pain in both MUs but taking quick stocks vs GnW should just never happen if they are playing optimally/smart.
 

Jinjo64

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#25
Just increase kirby's air speed. in sd remix he has double air moblility** and he's not even close to broken. I believe its .5 in pm compared to melee's .4. which...doesn't help that much. Also rock is so broken. I mean he flies up and down b's wtf! OBviously sakurai samurai didnt learn how to nerf from meta kigby in 64.

On a side note...kirby will never be high tier or even above mid tier if he doesn't have a reliable kill throw, reliable speed, combo throw, or an reliable approach. His approach is punishing. Give him one of those and he'll be solid mid-hightier.
 
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Shenanigan

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#27
Just increase kirby's air speed. in sd remix he has double air speed and he's not even close to broken. I believe its .5 in pm compared to melee's .4. which...doesn't help that much. Also rock is so broken. I mean he flies up and down b's wtf! OBviously sakurai samurai didnt learn how to nerf from meta kigby in 64.

On a side note...kirby will never be high tier or even above mid tier if he doesn't have a reliable kill throw, reliable speed, combo throw, or an reliable approach. His approach is punishing. Give him one of those and he'll be solid mid-hightier.
To prevent the spread of false information, Kirby's max air speed is 1.0 compared to .78 in Melee. You're thinking of air mobility (Kirby's is .04 in PM, which is identical to Melee).
 
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#28
I'm not sure whether I'd prefer more velocity to help with followups or more acceleration to help with spacing/neutral... Hmmmmm...
 
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skellitorman

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#29
Kirby also doesn't need buffs, he's really good lol.
Throughout the past few months, I have read a considerable amount of incorrect information in regards to Kirby. I was curious to see how well the PMDT would balance him this time around, and so I haven’t really posted much in regards to Kirby. However, I think it might be necessary to post some correct information, so that this misinformation can stop. It is not productive, and if anything is preventing adjustments that should occur.

You can also always just grab people that are ccing, or dair or max space air hammer.
One important reason why CC is such a problem is actually because ASDI down counters one of Kirby’s most important offensive options which is his fair. When whiff punishing an opponent or even just mounting an offense, an opponent can always just take either of the first two hits, hold down to recover instantly and get a full punish afterwards. This is very crippling as it is by far Kirby’s fastest far reaching aerial attack and is very important for his offense in general.

Aside from that, Kirby lacks speed (on the ground but most notably in the air along with mobility), lacks range, and lacks a projectile. These attributes are a problem when combined with his moveset, because Kirby struggles to actually get in to mount a heavy offense. Once he gets in, he could end up being CCed in a wide variety of offensive situations and then forced out having to go through the same process again.

Although grab is great in general against CC, this applies to every character in the game, and there are many situations in which a grab cannot be attained which is why the problem exists. Having other tools to threaten with, allow tools such as grab to become stronger. Aerial hammer and dair are both poor options to deal with this situation. Aerial hammer is slow (17 frame startup) and the animation is very distinct. Top level players will be able to shield it on reaction. Dair is also quite slow, but most importantly is punishable on block. Since Kirby lacks a strong punish game, it usually ends up not being in his favor if he has to take such risks in offense.

What is actually a good option to defeat CC is inhale. The problem though is the lack of reward. Starshot causes only a mere 10%, and the opponent is allowed to cancel the starshot into a wavedash and get a free punish. Copy can also be punished (by Fox only as far as I know), but its reward is also heavily underwhelming. Aside from the negligible damage done (3%), copy makes Kirby lose the ability to perform his command grab (which is conceptually a strong and necessary option), and the abilities he gains just doesn’t make up for it. They either don’t fit his attributes well, or there’s not much reason to use said ability over his other moves in the matchup.

For these reasons among other reasons, is it a good idea that Kirby gets his grab game (including inhale) buffed properly.


I think the only thing I'd change is more base knockback on fthrow so it puts them much further away. There's no real hope for comboing after it, because unless they don't have a pulse or don't know the MU, the optimal DI for all of kirby's throws to avoidfollow ups/get furthest away is the same. More BKB on fthrow would make it a better positional throw. Also if the waveland out of it felt smoother itd be amazing.
This is incorrect, and f throw moving the opponent farther away would be a significant nerf. It is very possible to combo a good number of characters with f throw currently, but the execution requirement is high. If the opponent moved too far away, then it would definitely no longer combo.

Furthermore DI away is actually not always the best DI, since Kirby can get followups against such DI in specific situations.

The problem with Kirby’s grab game is that the throws do such little damage, even though the opponent is guaranteed to react in time to perform the best DI (with all of Kirby’s throws) and Kirby is not guaranteed any follow-ups except in very specific cases.

This is another reason why it is a good idea to improve Kirby’s grab game.

The only thing holding Kirby back is his MU spread with the top characters, struggling vs fox and vs fast/strong disjoint characters (Imo GnW is kirby's worst MU by far, fox/marth are managable, roy feels almost even).
If you are trying to imply that Kirby does poorly against a small number of characters, or only the characters that are relevant, then that is incorrect. Kirby struggles against a wide variety of characters. Furthermore, if Kirby does struggle against so many characters (which he does), and you admit that it is holding him back, then why shouldn’t Kirby get appropriate adjustments?

kirby doesn't need Buffs, expecially mobility ones. If kirby got better air mobility and a better dash, a case for top 10 could easily be made because a longer/faster dash distance would change so many MUs
Kirby already has some of the best anti-approach tools in the game, if he got better tools to control neutral through mobility he'd be stupid.
These claims are baseless, and far from being correct. If you still believe that your points actually hold some validity and would like to explain why you think so, then I will refute your points as briefly as possible.

Also, I would like you to inform me of these “best anti-approach tools in the game” that Kirby happens to have. Then please explain, in more detail, why he’d be stupid if his aerial mobility was to be improved.
 
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Soft Serve

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#30
You're so passive/aggressive over someone saying a character is good lol. You're way under evaluating kirby's strengths, and seem want a lot of weaknesses just patched up.

One important reason why CC is such a problem is actually because ASDI down counters one of Kirby’s most important offensive options which is his fair. When whiff punishing an opponent or even just mounting an offense, an opponent can always just take either of the first two hits, hold down to recover instantly and get a full punish afterwards. This is very crippling as it is by far Kirby’s fastest far reaching aerial attack and is very important for his offense in general.

Aside from that, Kirby lacks speed (on the ground but most notably in the air along with mobility), lacks range, and lacks a projectile. These attributes are a problem when combined with his moveset, because Kirby struggles to actually get in to mount a heavy offense. Once he gets in, he could end up being CCed in a wide variety of offensive situations and then forced out having to go through the same process again.
Kirby doesn't need a strong offence, because kirby's defense is strong enough. I agree that kirby can struggle vs CC and ASDI down, but nearly all of the cast does(because its a bad mechanic), and kirby does have tools to work around it. the first two hits of fair can be ASDI'd down, so fast fall so the third hit hits them as you fall down. If they shield the hits in many MUs you aren't at a huge disadvantage because of another large tool in kirby's attributes, low profile crouch/dtilt. Its not a perfect solution but fair is a way overrated move. floaties SDIing up/out and punishing fair that way is larger draw back to fair because they avoid the strong hit entirely. I'd argue that dash>jump instant nair is a better whiff punish than fair once the opponent starts doing optimal counterplay for the move the majority of the time.
Although grab is great in general against CC, this applies to every character in the game, and there are many situations in which a grab cannot be attained which is why the problem exists. Having other tools to threaten with, allow tools such as grab to become stronger. Aerial hammer and dair are both poor options to deal with this situation. Aerial hammer is slow (17 frame startup) and the animation is very distinct. Top level players will be able to shield it on reaction. Dair is also quite slow, but most importantly is punishable on block. Since Kirby lacks a strong punish game, it usually ends up not being in his favor if he has to take such risks in offense.
frame wise, 17 frames of start up is just in the realm of react-able (Average reaction time for people is around 16 frames, although its safe to assume most smashers have above reactions times), so if we do assume its a twitch reflex its shield-able on reaction. Sweetspot side-b is -3/-4 on shield at max distance (if spaced properly, I think only DDD or marth could shield grab it, IF that, need to lab it later) so thats another situation where its a safe way to deal with CC, because they are forced to shield an effectively safe (frame and distance wise) move, and then deal with Kirby's fast ground moves and strong grab game. I don't have to explain that situation because dtilting shield grabs is so common for kirby. Cross up Dair is great, and while worse on block cross up dair>uptilt covers many OoS options (unless the opponent has a quick/invincible move up-b OoS, in which yes I agree its bad and you shouldnt use it in situations where they can shield).

What is actually a good option to defeat CC is inhale. The problem though is the lack of reward. Starshot causes only a mere 10%, and the opponent is allowed to cancel the starshot into a wavedash and get a free punish. Copy can also be punished (by Fox only as far as I know), but its reward is also heavily underwhelming. Aside from the negligible damage done (3%), copy makes Kirby lose the ability to perform his command grab (which is conceptually a strong and necessary option), and the abilities he gains just doesn’t make up for it. They either don’t fit his attributes well, or there’s not much reason to use said ability over his other moves in the matchup.
Dont really have much to add/say on this because I don't disagree, the net gain on inhale is pretty underwhelming in many Matchups.
This is incorrect, and f throw moving the opponent farther away would be a significant nerf. It is very possible to combo a good number of characters with f throw currently, but the execution requirement is high. If the opponent moved too far away, then it would definitely no longer combo.
The idea was that Fthrow would just work as a better positional throw to complement bthrow instead of a throw hoping they have bad reaction times and dont know the MU/proper DI. Kirby already has a great throw to gain significant advantage in dthrow, he doesn't need a combo fthrow.
Furthermore DI away is actually not always the best DI, since Kirby can get followups against such DI in specific situations.

The problem with Kirby’s grab game is that the throws do such little damage, even though the opponent is guaranteed to react in time to perform the best DI (with all of Kirby’s throws) and Kirby is not guaranteed any follow-ups except in very specific cases.

This is another reason why it is a good idea to improve Kirby’s grab game.
Fine, I over-simplified the throw situations. that doesn't change the fact that holding down/away prevents follow ups in most situations from fthrow and upthrow, and forces the tech on dthrow instead of a tilt/smash followup at higher %. Even if its not the complete perfect DI for each of those throws, its roughly/effectively the right DI. Id also like to know these followups, although I'm assuming its waveland>tilt against fatties or something similar to that.

If you are trying to imply that Kirby does poorly against a small number of characters, or only the characters that are relevant, then that is incorrect. Kirby struggles against a wide variety of characters. Furthermore, if Kirby does struggle against so many characters (which he does), and you admit that it is holding him back, then why shouldn’t Kirby get appropriate adjustments?
I'm saying Kirby has a good MU spread, although he loses to many of the best characters in the game, or characters that are very popular, not that he just happens to only lose to them. Theres nothing wrong with having bad MUs. I don't think kirby should get buffs to deal with those MUs because in a good number of those cases, the part that should be fixed is the other character. Toning the problem character's tools down is a better solution than retooling the worse characters in response, because it effects less MUs.
Buffing kirby with more/better tools that cover up weaknesses would shift more than just those specific losing MUs that are holding kirby back. I don't think buffing up (even if its slight buffs) of already good, well designed characters to the level of the best characters is healthy. Doing so either polarizes the characters MUs by buffing the strengths, making the MUs that are already favorable even better/easier (while not effecting the bad MUs as much because the other character still exploits the weaknesses significantly enough), or it normalizes the character by plugging up some weakneses or giving it tools that work in nearly every situation. Thats what caused the mess that 3.02 was, characters either having solid/easy tools for every situation, or having stupid good tools that made every MU easy until the other character had a strong answer, in which the character just falls apart (Diddy is still like this, so is tink, gnw, and a few others).

I don't think kirby needs just all-around buffs because Kirby is already a well designed good character. Some small tweaks/buffs/changes obviously would be okay, but think kirby's strength/weakness balance is fine as a character, and I hope the PMDT gives out small changes to characters above kirby instead.

These claims are baseless, and far from being correct. If you still believe that your points actually hold some validity and would like to explain why you think so, then I will refute your points as briefly as possible.
Damn, this is needlessly harsh, honestly. I don't get why you're so agressive over me saying Kirby is a good/balanced character.
Also, I would like you to inform me of these “best anti-approach tools in the game” that Kirby happens to have. Then please explain, in more detail, why he’d be stupid if his aerial mobility was to be improved.
Ignoring the snarky tone, and the fact you omitted "some of" from my claim to try to belittle my point, sure. Kirby's anti-approach options are simple and amazing. great aerials, amazing ground moves, low profile crouch/dtilt (incredibly amazing in so many MUs). Can intercept approachs with bair and uptilt and net a lot from those. Holds ground incredibly well due to these, despite having only average ground movement (still on par/better than shieks, mind you, who is the iconic "hold your ground and stop approaches" character). 3 frame jumpsquat with meaty aerials makes for both amazing approach stuffing and some of the best OoS aerials there are. Bair OoS to hit cross ups. Nair OoS hits frame 6--I think it is one of, if not the best, nairs OoS in the game. Its not anti- approach tools in the sense that kirby throws out hitboxes/projectiles that make it impossible for them to get in, or prevent movement in certain plains for a duration, its that kirby intercepts approaches incredibly well, forces them to whiff through low profile, good wd back/dash back, or taking to the air, quick options after spot dodge, and some of the best OoS options in the game.

on kirby's air mobility, the specific change brought up earlier in the thread that I was referring too wanted Kirby's air mobility buffed to the level of lucas or squirtle.(40 to ~.83), which would have been rediculous to the point it hardly needs explaining. Kirby would be nearly a jiggs in the air (yes, kirby would have lower max air speed, although his max air speed is slightly above average), with a great ground game on top of that.


I don't think kirby needs buffs because theres so much optimization to be done already with getting good with the character's kit and just playing neutral.
 

Jinjo64

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#31
I'm really digging the discussion going on here. Haven't seen dedication like this in months. Also jiggs is faster than .8. I believe she is like 1.278, but I could be wrong.
 

Jinjo64

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#33
Same. I've learned from the last 4 smash games that people who don't main Kirby don't care about him being better than mid tier. I still play Kirby, but Ganon just does a way better job at punishing and range. Also his grab is way better. Here is to waiting for 3.6 to make Kirby more fun. Also hoping for meta knight to not be boring and bad as bawls....
 

Shenanigan

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#34
I agree with the ideas in your post, just want to clarify some specifics
Kirby doesn't need a strong offence, because kirby's defense is strong enough. I agree that kirby can struggle vs CC and ASDI down, but nearly all of the cast does(because its a bad mechanic), and kirby does have tools to work around it. the first two hits of fair can be ASDI'd down, so fast fall so the third hit hits them as you fall down. If they shield the hits in many MUs you aren't at a huge disadvantage because of another large tool in kirby's attributes, low profile crouch/dtilt. Its not a perfect solution but fair is a way overrated move. floaties SDIing up/out and punishing fair that way is larger draw back to fair because they avoid the strong hit entirely. I'd argue that dash>jump instant nair is a better whiff punish than fair once the opponent starts doing optimal counterplay for the move the majority of the time.
If someone ASDI's down either of the first two hits of fair, they have time to shield before the next hit comes out. Down tilt only saves you from grabs from characters that you can duck. Fox, G&W, Squirtle, etc. are still going to grab you after fair unless you cross up.
frame wise, 17 frames of start up is just in the realm of react-able (Average reaction time for people is around 16 frames, although its safe to assume most smashers have above reactions times), so if we do assume its a twitch reflex its shield-able on reaction. Sweetspot side-b is -3/-4 on shield at max distance (if spaced properly, I think only DDD or marth could shield grab it, IF that, need to lab it later) so thats another situation where its a safe way to deal with CC, because they are forced to shield an effectively safe (frame and distance wise) move, and then deal with Kirby's fast ground moves and strong grab game. I don't have to explain that situation because dtilting shield grabs is so common for kirby. Cross up Dair is great, and while worse on block cross up dair>uptilt covers many OoS options (unless the opponent has a quick/invincible move up-b OoS, in which yes I agree its bad and you shouldnt use it in situations where they can shield).
Marth definitely can't grab spaced hammer because down tilt forces you into crouch before his grab comes out. Dedede probably can but I'd have to check. Bair to up tilt is also very good on shield, and catches a lot of people by surprise.
Ignoring the snarky tone, and the fact you omitted "some of" from my claim to try to belittle my point, sure. Kirby's anti-approach options are simple and amazing. great aerials, amazing ground moves, low profile crouch/dtilt (incredibly amazing in so many MUs). Can intercept approachs with bair and uptilt and net a lot from those. Holds ground incredibly well due to these, despite having only average ground movement (still on par/better than shieks, mind you, who is the iconic "hold your ground and stop approaches" character). 3 frame jumpsquat with meaty aerials makes for both amazing approach stuffing and some of the best OoS aerials there are. Bair OoS to hit cross ups. Nair OoS hits frame 6--I think it is one of, if not the best, nairs OoS in the game. Its not anti- approach tools in the sense that kirby throws out hitboxes/projectiles that make it impossible for them to get in, or prevent movement in certain plains for a duration, its that kirby intercepts approaches incredibly well, forces them to whiff through low profile, good wd back/dash back, or taking to the air, quick options after spot dodge, and some of the best OoS options in the game.
Nair is also good for intercepting approaches.Nair oos is frame 6, tied for best with Sheik and I think a couple of other characters. Bair oos is frame 9, which is also very good. One thing you didn't mention is his pivot grab, which is deceptively big and incredible against grounded approaches.
Same. I've learned from the last 4 smash games that people who don't main Kirby don't care about him being better than mid tier. I still play Kirby, but Ganon just does a way better job at punishing and range. Also his grab is way better. Here is to waiting for 3.6 to make Kirby more fun. Also hoping for meta knight to not be boring and bad as bawls....
Kirby's grab is waaay better than Ganon's because he can actually get grabs against competent opponents.
 
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Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
584
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Dream Land
#35
One of the few things I actually like about Smash 4 Kirby is how well the 3 hits of his F-Air link together. It gets annoying to see someone in PM SDI out of it on reaction for the 9000th time. -_-
 
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Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
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#36
One of the few things I actually like about Smash 4 Kirby is how well the 3 hits of his F-Air link together. It gets annoying to see someone in PM SDI out of it on reaction for the 9000th time. -_-
My biggest gripe is when I link all 3 hits and they go behind me. I know I have to space properly, but Fair is the only move that feels unnatural out of all the characters. But maybe it's just me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

skellitorman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
319
#37
You're so passive/aggressive over someone saying a character is good lol. You're way under evaluating kirby's strengths, and seem want a lot of weaknesses just patched up.
Damn, this is needlessly harsh, honestly. I don't get why you're so agressive over me saying Kirby is a good/balanced character.
You have put forth no evidence to support your claims, and there is no evidence that I know of to support many of your claims. This leads me to think that your arguments are baseless, and if you think otherwise, then all you would need to do is to put forth some evidence to support it. You have also misunderstood the information I posted if you think that I am “under evaluating kirby's strengths, and seem to want a lot of weaknesses just patched up.” I do not speak of multiple weaknesses that I want “patched up.” I state facts about certain problems that exist, and show evidence explaining why it would make sense if it was addressed. The only adjustment I even mentioned in the previous post was an adjustment to his grab game.

There is no need for either of us to comment about each other. As I mentioned at the beginning of my previous post, this misinformation (such as the information in your posts) should stop because it is “not productive, and if anything is preventing adjustments that should occur.” My emotions in regards to my argument are irrelevant. Focus strictly on the arguments at hand.

I am not trying to antagonize you. I just naturally speak this way.

Ignoring the snarky tone, and the fact you omitted "some of" from my claim to try to belittle my point, sure.
By stating “these “best anti-approach tools in the game” I can only be referring to that which you are arguing about. Clearly you said “some of,” so I would only be speaking about those that you think exist. You’re perception of me having a “snarky tone” is irrelevant and I needed to know of your arguments so that I can argue against them, hence why I asked those questions.

Kirby's anti-approach options are simple and amazing. great aerials, amazing ground moves, low profile crouch/dtilt (incredibly amazing in so many MUs). Can intercept approachs with bair and uptilt and net a lot from those. Holds ground incredibly well due to these, despite having only average ground movement (still on par/better than shieks, mind you, who is the iconic "hold your ground and stop approaches" character). 3 frame jumpsquat with meaty aerials makes for both amazing approach stuffing and some of the best OoS aerials there are. Bair OoS to hit cross ups. Nair OoS hits frame 6--I think it is one of, if not the best, nairs OoS in the game.
To support your point that Kirby’s “anti-approach” options are simple and amazing, you say the following: All of his attacks (aerial and ground moves) are great or amazing. He can intercept approaches with two attacks. He holds ground well. He has fast aerial attacks that are amazing at stuffing.

The problem with your assessment here, is that after you made a point to specify that he has “some of” the best anti approach tools in the game, you go on to say that all of his tools are great or amazing and failed to specify which of these tools are “some of” the best anti-approach tools in the game. You also do not explain why they are some of the best anti-approach tools in the game, which leads me nothing to argue against.

Its not anti- approach tools in the sense that kirby throws out hitboxes/projectiles that make it impossible for them to get in, or prevent movement in certain plains for a duration, its that kirby intercepts approaches incredibly well, forces them to whiff through low profile, good wd back/dash back, or taking to the air, quick options after spot dodge, and some of the best OoS options in the game.
Here you say that he doesn’t have anti-approach options that many other characters have. You say that Kirby can intercept approaches well due to his functional options, but this applies to many other characters aside from the low crouch which only about 4 other characters have (Jigglypuff, Squirtle, Shiek, Snake. Samus if you include crawl). These functional options (that you mention) include good wavedashes, good dashes, quick options after spot dodges, and solid OoS options.

However, what other characters have that Kirby does not, is speed, range, comboability, and KO power. You have claimed before that I am underestimating Kirby’s strength, when I know full well, his capabilities. The evidence you have put forth suggest the opposite. You are overestimating his strengths.

Kirby doesn't need a strong offence, because kirby's defense is strong enough.
In fighting games (generally speaking), when a character lacks a projectile, lacks range and lacks speed, (which Kirby lacks all three) then they are forced to mount offense due to certain factors. In the case where an opponent has projectiles and you don’t, then you can only receive damage while not being able to damage the enemy at all. This leads to something called “zoning.” Characters that are getting “zoned” are forced to deal with whatever objects (or hitboxes) that are thrown at them, until they are close enough, to even attempt to damage the opponent doing the zoning. This applies to Kirby, and is why Kirby needing an effective offense is important.

Furthermore, if an opponent’s character is faster than yours (which most are in Kirby’s case) and have more range than yours (which most have over Kirby), then being defensive is disadvantageous, unless the opponent’s character has no relevant safe options (which isn’t the case here). It is disadvantageous especially in a game such as smash, because shielding is not absolute (shield gets smaller through time and characters can be shield poked). This means that characters who have more range on relevant offensive options that are safe, can mount an effective offense while constantly outranging your character’s defensive options (Kirby in this case).

Characters who fit the above descriptions such as Kirby (no projectile, low speed, low range) would usually have one of two things as compensation if they were to be considered “good.” They would either have a huge punish game, or have some overpowered tool(s). Kirby has neither of these. However, due to certain factors (such as the system mechanics), Kirby is functional in the neutral for the most part.

For these reasons, it makes sense to address Kirby’s design and adjust him properly.


I agree that kirby can struggle vs CC and ASDI down, but nearly all of the cast does(because its a bad mechanic), and kirby does have tools to work around it. the first two hits of fair can be ASDI'd down, so fast fall so the third hit hits them as you fall down. If they shield the hits in many MUs you aren't at a huge disadvantage because of another large tool in kirby's attributes, low profile crouch/dtilt. Its not a perfect solution but fair is a way overrated move. floaties SDIing up/out and punishing fair that way is larger draw back to fair because they avoid the strong hit entirely. I'd argue that dash>jump instant nair is a better whiff punish than fair once the opponent starts doing optimal counterplay for the move the majority of the time.
Due to Kirby’s attributes, the difference between a just frame whiff punish between nair and fair is 4 frames. That is very significant. Furthermore, the risk of nair is large since a whiff punish nair would have a significant amount of frames before it reaches the ground and if shielded, would guarantee a shield grab due to the lack of range (meaning that Kirby would end up close to the opponent but in front). Since Kirby has no aerial mobility, he can’t fade back to make such an option safer either.

Also, you are overestimating the strength of his crouch. More than half of the characters in the game can grab Kirby if he is crouched and directly in front of them (which will happen if you approach with nair and get shielded). If an opponent blocks a dtilt, then Kirby is -10 and can be shield grabbed or hit with other OoS options if close enough.

Kirby’s inability to press offensively while moving forward (in the air) is quite prevalent and makes no sense for Kirby’s design. Since opponents will ASDI Kirby’s fair and punish Kirby, this is particularly problematic as there is no replacement for its function. Unfortunately nair is a lot of times not a viable replacement option because if its range and Kirby’s lack of speed/mobility. Aerial hammer is also too slow, especially when combined with the lack of air mobility. Kirby moves too slow (especially in the air) and doesn’t have the range to reach the opponent many times, allowing them to effectively recover or defend.

on kirby's air mobility, the specific change brought up earlier in the thread that I was referring too wanted Kirby's air mobility buffed to the level of lucas or squirtle.(40 to ~.83), which would have been rediculous to the point it hardly needs explaining. Kirby would be nearly a jiggs in the air (yes, kirby would have lower max air speed, although his max air speed is slightly above average), with a great ground game on top of that.
Improving Kirby’s aerial mobility to .080 would not bring Kirby anywhere close to Jigglypuff’s level at all. Jigglypuff’s aerial mobility is at .28. That is 7 times the amount of air control than the current Kirby who is at .04. Fox and Wolf are both at .08 as well, and it would make sense for Kirby’s design for him to have more than them.

Also, Wario is a character who has a .33 aerial mobility which is even higher than Jigglypuff by .05 (even the difference is higher than Kirby’s base aerial mobility), and he is faster than Kirby on the ground. Kirby really has such a little amount of air mobility, and it makes no sense for his design.

The change that Phan7om brought up about improving aerial mobility has actually already been implemented in SD remix with its current version of Kirby that is significantly better than his PM counterpart.

Aside from the buff Phan7om mentioned, these are other differences (that are reasonable) in SD remix that Kirby has over his PM counterpart:

Kirby’s forward throw does 4% more damage. His Upthrow and downthrow both do 3% more damage. Upthrow is a KO attack. Down air has 1 less frame of startup and 5 less frames of landing recovery. Copy does 12% more damage (15% total) and the opponent can no longer cancel the star animation. Copy abilities are also better in general from my understanding though I don’t have the data for this.

Such changes would not make Kirby top tier in PM, but it will definitely make him much more viable at top level.

The idea was that Fthrow would just work as a better positional throw to complement bthrow instead of a throw hoping they have bad reaction times and dont know the MU/proper DI. Kirby already has a great throw to gain significant advantage in dthrow, he doesn't need a combo fthrow.
This is not true in all cases. Dthrow sometimes lead to a good advantage and sometimes it doesn’t. The opponent can tech roll a direction that you failed to react to in time and it could happen to be towards the center of the stage (thus putting the opponent in an advantage). They could also reverse pressure, if you fail to react and they teched in place or did something unexpected.

Fthrow also does very low damage (4%), and the throw is easily reacted to so that optimal DI can occur. Due to Kirby’s attributes and moveset; position gained like this is far less valuable than raw damage, especially since Kirby can easily get outmaneuvered by a good portion of the cast.

Fine, I over-simplified the throw situations. that doesn't change the fact that holding down/away prevents follow ups in most situations from fthrow and upthrow, and forces the tech on dthrow instead of a tilt/smash followup at higher %. Even if its not the complete perfect DI for each of those throws, its roughly/effectively the right DI. Id also like to know these followups, although I'm assuming its waveland>tilt against fatties or something similar to that.
The following combos are specifically for DI away:

At early percent Kirby can just frame waveland and just frame d tilt against a large portion of the cast (the floatier the character the easier it is to connect). On certain characters he is guaranteed a chain throw with forward throw up to 16% (but you have to do two just frame inputs per chain throw). At around 25-40% Kirby can do F throw to cutter dash on certain characters with just frame inputs.

Up throw at zero percent combos into air hammer against floaty characters. Against certain characters, it combos at later percents.

These combos require just frame inputs and you have to guess the DI beforehand making this a significant limitation. Against fastfallers, Kirby can’t combo with his throws except in very specific cases which is usually at mid percents. Against everyone at higher percents, he completely loses his ability to combo and he can’t KO with his throws, which significantly weakens Kirby’s throw game. The opponent gets thrown too far away and since Kirby lacks mobility/range many opponents can outmaneuver Kirby and reset to neutral too easily. Combine that with the fact that all of his throws do poor damage, and one can easily see a huge problem with his grab game overall.

If Kirby had really solid KO options (which he does not) then this would be less of a problem.

I'm saying Kirby has a good MU spread, although he loses to many of the best characters in the game, or characters that are very popular, not that he just happens to only lose to them. Theres nothing wrong with having bad MUs. I don't think kirby should get buffs to deal with those MUs because in a good number of those cases, the part that should be fixed is the other character. Toning the problem character's tools down is a better solution than retooling the worse characters in response, because it effects less MUs.
Once you understand the strengths and weaknesses that Kirby has, then it should be much easier for you to see that Kirby is at a disadvantage against a wide variety of MUs. Toning the problem tools of other characters isn’t going to make Kirby suddenly have even matchups, because it is Kirby’s weaknesses that causes the disadvantages in most of these MUs.

For example: Let’s say Link is a tough MU for Kirby because of only two reasons. Link outranges Kirby, and Kirby has nothing as compensation (such as a higher damage output). What tools of Link should be toned down in this situation? If you say none, then one could look into Kirby’s design and adjust it to balance it.

The alternative is to decide to just let Kirby’s design stay flawed and have the bad MU. However, when one sees that Kirby really lacks significant advantageous MUs and that the same problem (multiple problems in Kirby’s case) is causing such a wide variety of disadvantageous MUs (which is the case), then maybe Kirby’s design should be reassessed.

I don't think buffing up (even if its slight buffs) of already good, well designed characters to the level of the best characters is healthy. Doing so either polarizes the characters MUs by buffing the strengths, making the MUs that are already favorable even better/easier (while not effecting the bad MUs as much because the other character still exploits the weaknesses significantly enough), or it normalizes the character by plugging up some weakneses or giving it tools that work in nearly every situation. Thats what caused the mess that 3.02 was, characters either having solid/easy tools for every situation, or having stupid good tools that made every MU easy until the other character had a strong answer, in which the character just falls apart (Diddy is still like this, so is tink, gnw, and a few others).
This is not accurate. Buffing a character by fixing certain necessary tools and adjusting the degree of strengths and weaknesses, does not lead to characters being polarized. What leads to polarization is bad design that is done in extremes. For example characters that are too strong but too slow, have incredibly polarized MUs against characters they can’t catch (losing MU) and may have incredibly polarized MUs against certain characters who just can’t avoid them well (winning MU).

What caused the mess in 3.02 was indeed the fact that tools were too strong. However, it is very feasible to balance Kirby properly without leading to such a problem. To say that it isn’t is just not correct.

I don't think kirby needs buffs because theres so much optimization to be done already with getting good with the character's kit and just playing neutral.
Lack of optimization is the case with the majority of players and their characters. Objective assessment of every character’s tools using debug mode will tell you that certain things are possible and that certain things just aren’t possible. Through such an assessment, one should be able to determine whether or not change is beneficial for competitive play.


I don't think kirby needs just all-around buffs because Kirby is already a well designed good character. Some small tweaks/buffs/changes obviously would be okay, but think kirby's strength/weakness balance is fine as a character, and I hope the PMDT gives out small changes to characters above kirby instead.
As I addressed in my previous points, Kirby is a character that makes sense to adjust. Whether you see this or not is irrelevant. Saying that he shouldn't be adjusted when arguing solely on the basis of balance is just not correct.
 
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Jinjo64

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
116
Location
Portage, Michigan
#38
Here is Kirby in SD remix. He is by far the best designed Kirby I think due to ripple and vietgeek addressing his major weaknesses as mentioned in this discussion. SD remix overall characters are better designed than pm in my opinion because they actually feel melee without the super jank of pre 3.5. Also I just now Ripple and vietgeek work on the game. Idk who worked on Kirby specifically, but he should do pm kirby!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B3yqZUfnd0
 

Shenanigan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2015
Messages
183
Location
Tuscaloosa, AL
#39
My biggest gripe is when I link all 3 hits and they go behind me. I know I have to space properly, but Fair is the only move that feels unnatural out of all the characters. But maybe it's just me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You can prevent this by fading back as you fair. Also, depending on the situation, RAR bair can be a better option than fair.

You have put forth no evidence to support your claims, and there is no evidence that I know of to support many of your claims. This leads me to think that your arguments are baseless, and if you think otherwise, then all you would need to do is to put forth some evidence to support it.
But he did put forth evidence?

To support your point that Kirby’s “anti-approach” options are simple and amazing, you say the following: All of his attacks (aerial and ground moves) are great or amazing. He can intercept approaches with two attacks. He holds ground well. He has fast aerial attacks that are amazing at stuffing.

The problem with your assessment here, is that after you made a point to specify that he has “some of” the best anti approach tools in the game, you go on to say that all of his tools are great or amazing and failed to specify which of these tools are “some of” the best anti-approach tools in the game. You also do not explain why they are some of the best anti-approach tools in the game, which leads me nothing to argue against.
But he did specify? Nair is one of the best oos options in the game. Nair, bair, and fair are great at stuffing aerial approaches. All of his tilts come out on frame four or five and have great range. Down tilt is also surprisingly good at stuffing low aerials. Pivot grab is great for baiting grounded approaches.

Also, you are overestimating the strength of his crouch. More than half of the characters in the game can grab Kirby if he is crouched and directly in front of them (which will happen if you approach with nair and get shielded). If an opponent blocks a dtilt, then Kirby is -10 and can be shield grabbed or hit with other OoS options if close enough.
Crouch is godlike, and does a lot more than just ducking grabs

Kirby’s inability to press offensively while moving forward (in the air) is quite prevalent and makes no sense for Kirby’s design. Since opponents will ASDI Kirby’s fair and punish Kirby, this is particularly problematic as there is no replacement for its function. Unfortunately nair is a lot of times not a viable replacement option because if its range and Kirby’s lack of speed/mobility. Aerial hammer is also too slow, especially when combined with the lack of air mobility. Kirby moves too slow (especially in the air) and doesn’t have the range to reach the opponent many times, allowing them to effectively recover or defend.
RAR bair is a pretty solid replacement if you don't like using fair. And since you can turn around with jumps bair is also a viable option when chasing offstage. Kirby also has above average air speed (Tied for 13-23 I think).

This is not true in all cases. Dthrow sometimes lead to a good advantage and sometimes it doesn’t. The opponent can tech roll a direction that you failed to react to in time and it could happen to be towards the center of the stage (thus putting the opponent in an advantage). They could also reverse pressure, if you fail to react and they teched in place or did something unexpected.
Down throw's strength is very match up dependent. Against certain characters (Sheik, Zelda, Falco) it's almost useless because of how long their tech rolls are. Against others (Squirtle, Olimar) you can basically tech chase them infinitely until they get all the way to the ledge, which then sets up into an edgeguard situation. Against most characters if you don't get an advantage off down throw you're doing something wrong. The only bad thing about down throw is that certain characters (Mario, Dedede, others I can't remember) can sometimes jump out before they hit the ground.

If Kirby had really solid KO options (which he does not) then this would be less of a problem.
Kirby's main game plan should be to get people off stage and then edgeguard, not outright kill them.


Once you understand the strengths and weaknesses that Kirby has, then it should be much easier for you to see that Kirby is at a disadvantage against a wide variety of MUs. Toning the problem tools of other characters isn’t going to make Kirby suddenly have even matchups, because it is Kirby’s weaknesses that causes the disadvantages in most of these MUs.
Unless those tools are relevant to the matchup. If Fox lost up throw up air you can be sure Kirby's matchup against Fox would improve.
 
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