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Weird question, why not use 150 HP?

Prawn

Smash Master
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So I've played competitive smash for a while. And Im sure there are dozens of obvious reasons for this to not work. But why, in sm4sh, or brawl, don't we/didn't we experiment with the 150 HP stamina setting?

With all the concerns about tournament length I feel like best 2/3 or best 3/5 on 150 HP would work well, and wouldn't the game resemble other fighters somewhat?

Just a thought Ive never seen discussed and I've seen way dumber threads in this forum so there it is
 

Sixfortyfive

Smash Journeyman
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Knock-back scaling and the accumulation of KOs via ring-outs practically define Smash Bros, especially in the context of other fighting games.

I don't think "resembling other fighting games" should be a goal. It's already somewhat bothersome when some Smash players rip on certain games in the series for not playing exactly like other Smash games, let alone fighting games in general.

Not that stamina mode can't be interesting as its own format, mind you.
 

AccountsDept

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There is no reason that we should do this to "resemble other fighters."

Like sixfortyfive said, the unique health-damage system we have defines what smash is, and why we choose to play it and not other fighters.

There are a lot of design annoyances (that i have) with the finite-health system anyway, something i particularly dislike in traditional fighters.
 

Prawn

Smash Master
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Ringouts and knock back scaling still play a part, you can gimp someone while you're almost dead and still win the game. You can get an early kill with a hard read.

And the resembling other fighters bit was simply a side point, no need to go into a defensive frenzy, I've played this game and brawl for like 5 years, and I don't play any other fighting games.
 
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B0NK

Smash Lord
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lol these reasons.

The reason is because there's no increased knockback as the stamina goes down. If there was, there probably would be no issue.

So in brawl you could do things like, falco down-throw > down-throw over and over again till you died. There's other CG's like this in Brawl that last forever (Pikachu on some characters, there's prolly other's I'm forgetting). Is that not competitive? Not really, you could play a game of 0-death CGs but most people don't have fun playing that.

In Smash 4 CGs aren't as much of an issue, but I feel like there will be similar combos that last to near death with stamina. Combos just last much, much longer in Stamina and 150 HP just isn't enough to justify the damage you're taking.

Now 1 stamina random character side tourneys? Those are fun as hell -_^b
 
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Prawn

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Are you sure that's how it works? I suppose I should test things before I ramble incoherently.

Even so that sounds cool lol
 

ItsRainingGravy

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The main problem with stamina mode that a lot of people don't consider are that most people make suggestions for all of the characters to have the same amount of health.


This simply doesn't work out too well, because it benefits smaller, more agile characters exponentially more than heavyweight characters. Because they have the same amount of health now, there is literally no point to picking a heavyweight character now. Not only do you lose their bulk in a stamina mode match, but their additional knockback is now pointless and does more harm than good. Because it makes the pace of the match reset back to neutral, while lightweight characters can probably Utilt chain them for about 5-10 seconds or more before a heavyweight can potentially break free, if at all.

Utilt chains and infinite combos are another worry for stamina mode. Things that don't normally exist in the main game because knockback scales with damage. This isn't the case in stamina mode, and therefore the chance to encounter problematic moves and/or tatics such as these increases. Take Fox's Utilt for example.


One way to help "fix" stamina mode for competitive purposes is to have different health values for the characters. Diddy, Pikachu, Sheik? They would have low health, due to the wide array of options and mobility tools that they possess. Bowser, King DeDeDe, Ganondorf? These characters should have higher health because of their limited mobility and relatively crappy moves within a stamina mode environment.

However, this is only a small fix, as there are a lot of problems with stamina mode still. Simply put, the game's engine was specifically designed to have knockback scaling in mind. And when you try to deviate away from the central design the game's engine was built around, you start to encounter more and more problems. What I mentioned only scratches the surface.


tl;dr the only way to potentially make this work is to give every single character their own individual health values based upon the amount of options they have available to them in a stamina mode format, and even then, this won't fix everything simply because Smash Bros was not designed to use traditional fighting game HP values over the damage/knockback formula the game's engine was built around.
 
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B0NK

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Yeah, I'm sure lol.

It's unfortunate really, a simple fix would be to still have increased knockback as stamina goes down, but I have my doubts Sakurai added that in Smash 4.

In Brawl, I'm 100% sure.

EDIT: Still laughing at these essay style reasons people are giving. It's really because not many want to play smash without increasing knockback loooool
 
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Raijinken

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Yeah, I'm sure lol.

It's unfortunate really, a simple fix would be to still have increased knockback as stamina goes down, but I have my doubts Sakurai added that in Smash 4.

In Brawl, I'm 100% sure.

EDIT: Still laughing at these essay style reasons people are giving. It's really because not many want to play smash without increasing knockback loooool
Even in Project M where they've added a function to make knockback increase, it's still not done because it's just not how Smash is played. It's hilarious and fun, but it's just not what the game was meant for over-all.
 

ItsRainingGravy

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Another huge problem with stamina mode that I didn't go over: Camping.

Good luck fighting a good Mega Man/Pac-Man/etc in this kind of mode.

This is especially true if all of the characters had an equal amount of health, namely the bigger and slower characters. Bowser/King DeDeDe/etc would absolutely hate to have to deal with this in stamina mode, too.
 

popsofctown

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Coin mode increases knockback. Technically coin mode and stock are on a level playing feel in terms of default settings since neither is time.
 

ChronoPenguin

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Weight & fall speed translates into effective health during regular matches. (Jiggly dies at ~80, Bowser dies at ~100) When you put them in stamina the truism that some characters are supposed to have more "health" then others doesn't transfer.

That bothers me as Bowser and Sheik shouldn't be sharing the same health pool. I like the idea of stamina but it's not proportional.
 
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digiholic

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  • With fixed knockback, combos could potentially never end.
  • Characters that deal good damage but lack killing power (Sheik, Mega Man, etc.) now have no drawbacks at all.
  • Skills like DI, safe recovery, gimps, edgeguarding, stage spiking, stage spike teching, and knowledge of blast zones become 100% irrelevant.
  • Aggression becomes the worst strategy due to unnecessary risks and lack of reward (stage control) on successful hit due to low knockback.
  • Heavy characters lose their only upside (being hard to kill)
In summary, a Stamina meta is a meta with a much, much lower skill ceiling, as well as a higher skill floor, while polarizing the cast into "nigh-unstoppable" and "absolute garbage"
 

dav3yb

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Were going to have a side-tournament at an upcoming event that is stamina. were going to all omega stages, and smash balls on medium. this will simulate more traditional fighting games by, having basic stages that aren't really different than any others, having a set amount of HP, and the smash balls will act like the supers that a lot of fighting games have.

i dont see it ever being useful for anything other than a fun side tournament thing.
 

Judo777

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As already said, there are SOOOO many infinites with stamina mode. In Brawl Falco could infinite the whole cast with his dthrow cg. Sheiks fair would probably never stop comboing.
 

PHYTO-1

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ive always thought this too. i mean i know its "not the true meaning of smash" , but i love the idea of having competitive formats outside of No Items, Final Destination only. You know its like how they have Team Deathmatch, and Capture the Flag. I love smash, I love the game, but there should be more "modes"

In an effort to alleviate the whole heavies get juggled shenanigans, we could incorporate equipment effects like give the heavies higher airspeed or slower fall speed.

or put the whole game on low gravity smash. or even metal mode, where they can resist weak utilts and stuff
 

DavemanCozy

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Stamina mode wouldn't have worked in Brawl because there were too many abusable infinites. :popo: practically took your stock the minute you got jabbed and grabbed. Imagine how this would play out in Stamina.

In Smash Wii U, there are characters who can trap others by just jabbing: :4link: :4fox: Though I am not sure about how jab stuff would be affected in Stamina, seeing as there is no knockback scaling. I wouldn't mind playing around with Stamina mode in Smash Wii U, as long as there's nothing abusable like Brawl's IC's (or Dedede's d-throw, or Falco's d-throw, etc).
 

PHYTO-1

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hmmm what about footstool resets? i just remembered that Little Mac has dtilt > footstool > dair as a forced get up.

His dtilt has very low knockback and the setup works at 25% - 70% which is a huge range...

not to mention his KO punch. How does that thing work in Stamina Mode?
 

ぱみゅ

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I'd rather look at this like what-it-is instead of what-it-would-be.

I can't see this as a standard, but it sounds like a fun alternative, specially if infinites are non-present or avoidable.
 
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Judo777

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You could solve the endless combo problem by raising the "damage ratio" at the same time
I'm not sure that would solve it. It would just change the moves that infinite. Like jabs would probably start comboing instead because before they had too little hitstun
 
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