Weekly Matchup Discussion - Ness

[DtJ Hilt]

Ness

​

Ness is underestimated by a lot due to his low placing on the tier list, list but he seems to have a few tools to mess Olimar up, notably his amazing air game. Ness was previously labeled as having a 60:40 advantage on Olimar but a lot of Olimar mains don't understand why this is.


Discuss!

 

[DarkPikmin]

Think double Fair like marth does. He can do that if you let him I think. His air game is good

 

[Weruop]

having playeds FOW, rich and i would probably agree that this is a 50 50 matchup. its hard for us to some of his aerials out of shield, so pivot grabs are a must in this matchup. thier kill will likely be from a bair or a backthrow, so just keep those in mind.yellow pikmin up smash/upair goes through ness backair and fair if i recall correctly. they are great in this matchup.purple upsmash kills pretty early on Ness


watchout for fair to jab/tilt. they can sorta fair and bair around u like a marth fairs around olimars, so its quite annoying and hard to get around. pivot grabs really help against that though. pikmin can be thrown for gimping but almost all of the time the ness will hit them off before recovering. the yellow pikmin arc can be used to get ness if he recovers from down low after hitting pikmin off of himself

 

[DtJ Hilt]

About Ness recovering, I usually like to have as many purples as possible in the matchup. After his second jump is used, a purple pikmin will knock him far enough that he HAS to use PK Thunder as fast as possible. So while he's still in the stun of the purple pikmin, i'm still throwing other pikmin at him in hope that one will land on him ****ing up PK Thunder. Other than that though, there isn't much of a way to completely gimp his recovery consistantly. His second jump lasts forever, and he's able to nair off any pikmin we late onto him. before sending out PK Thunder. Edge Guarding off stage isn't smart either, as his fair out does everything we have, sans yellow fair pefectly spaced.

 

[DanGR]

Ness' short hop fair approach

As said earlier, short hop->fair->double jump->rising fair is a pretty good approach against Oli. The main thing to keep in mind right here is to try and catch his landing after the double jump. After the double jump he'll likely either space himself with another fair while he lands, land directly onto your shield with a fair, or dair to cover himself from below.

• If he lands near you simply pivotgrab him.
• If he's far away try to Upb him.
• If he's diagonal and up to you, and you're sure he won't use a falling dair, you can upair. (His dair will kill your upair pikmin if the hitboxes collide. It's better to just not challenge his foot)
• If there's no way to punish him, throw a yellow to rack a couple percent damage, or just leave it at that. You don't want to run in with a grab. He'll just use a really safe rising aerial off the ground.

If you can, hit him off-stage after the double jump with a fair or something. I think a yellow fair may go through his fair. Not sure. If he's far enough offstage without his double jump, just throw a pikmin on him.
____________

Another option Ness has after a short hopped fair is just to fast fall it directly onto your shield. Like Peach, Luigi, and Sheik to name a few, Ness can use his jab before you can shield grab him.

We've already discussed the options Olimar has when this happens. Just do the same thing you do against Peach/Sheik/Luigi, and this won't be a huge problem.
____________

Fighting against the short hopped fair approach?

• You can attempt to hit him with an aerial after he does a rising fair, and as he's falling. Be sure to hit him with the correct aerial though.
• You can try to grab/fsmash him before he gets off the ground.
• Yellows work wonders in this matchup. Use them to get through his electric attacks, obviously.
• Pivotgrabbing works well if you predict he'll land directly onto your shield.

 

[AvariceX]

I'm pretty bad at this matchup but this is what I know.

-Ness' nair pretty much shuts down pikmin spam.

-Ness is going to use nair out of shield a lot - it beats everything you can do on an approach except grab... so just don't get predictable with your grabs.

-Ness has a lot of trouble approaching Oli (specifically through Oli's smashes and up-b) and will usually try to force you to approach (PKT travels farther than your projectiles, PKF can create a barrier to tip the camping war in Ness' favor, and you just don't want to **** with PKFlash )

-Get under Ness whenever you can, and preferably under a platform (this is true of all matchups, but especially this one) - Ness doesn't have a good answer to your uair or up-b.

-PK Fire is amazing against Oli, especially after you come back from a fresh stock. Be careful where/when you pluck your new pikmin because Ness is going to try to light you up with PKF while you're helplessly plucking them (the fire pillar can trigger even if you are still invincible and hit you after invincibility fades)

-No smart Ness is going to get gimped by your silly pikmin throw, ever. Seriously. You might get gimped by PKT tricks though

-usmash, dsmash, and uair are going to be Oli's best kill moves in this matchup.

It's probably either 50:50 or 55:45 Oli's favor.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Most of Olimar's approaches get shut down by your fair :/

Also, AvariceX, if we try to UpB to stop your approach, a simple airdodge will definitely put us in a bad spot. There's enough lag after our chain for you to come out of airdodge and punish with fair/nair/whatever.

Personally I don't see anything that would put it as anything but 50:50 or Ness' favor. There's no clear advantage of anything Olimar would have on Ness, when compared to what Ness has on us. Fair messes us up too bad. Ness is extremely good at juggling us with fair, among his other aerials (bair, uair), and also regrabbing us upon our landing which isn't difficult for Ness to do. If we get off stage Ness can easily edge guard us with Fair (PKT isnt much of a problem off stage as it will most of the time pop us upward which is good for us). Ness's backthrow kills at close to nothing, although we can get kills early as well. The main problem is landing them. Ness' jab messes us up as well.

To be honest, it's mainly just fair that changes this matchup... It's extremely disjointed (think marth's fair) which is something we usually have a problem dealing with. And the fact that he can land close to us and throw out a jab without us being able to do anything about it is a problem as well.

imo 55:45 Ness, more or less.

 

[Weruop]

i think he is gimpable with dangr's method unless they use down b before using phthunder
i also reallly think its 50 50 lol
upsmash and throw kills are best killmoves i think -shrug- redfair too if u catch him off guard in the air especially

 

[_clinton]

God...I hate fighting something like a good Olimar...that ****s scary...

 

[BOB SAGET!]

i say its 55-45 ness.

Ness can grab u after pk fire then dthrow for extra damage. If your at a killing percentage he can bthrow u to death.

Ness can nair out of shields (like said above) which screws us over when we throw pkmn.

We need to pivot grab a lot.

his fair then jab should be shield grabbed.

We are outcamped because his projectiles easily kill our pkmn then force us to pluck more leaving us vulnerable. Which allows him to throw his projectiles at us.

 

[Weruop]

50 50 or 45 55 ness seems abotu right

 

[AvariceX]

I think I'm in love with the Oli boards XD... Not only is this the most knowledgeable group of individuals outside of the Ness boards who I've seen discussing Ness, but I've actually learned a fair amount about what I'm doing wrong against Olimar in this matchup

Also, AvariceX, if we try to UpB to stop your approach, a simple airdodge will definitely put us in a bad spot. There's enough lag after our chain for you to come out of airdodge and punish with fair/nair/whatever.

Granted, but the chain also comes out fast enough that it can't really be airdodged on reaction - only prediction.

Also, over the history of the Ness/Oli boards I've noticed that this has been one of the most difficult matchups in the game to actually decide an accurate ratio on - certain facets of both characters can give the other serious difficulty, and a match between the two can often look seriously one-sided, from either perspective, when it's actually more likely close to even.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

How many frames does jab last? As well as the hitboxes. You can probably jump away afterwards before our grab gets to you (eleven frames)

 

[DMK.]

I've got some experience in this matchup, as ColinJF is in my area and I just played friendlies with him last weekend. Disclaimer - characters aside, Colin is a significantly better player than me.

That said, I find a big problem with Ness is PK fire and PK Thunder, both versions. PK Fire is commonly used in one of two ways - as a barrier between you two that will kill any non-red pikmin if you try to use latch, and as a way to get a free grab if you stop to pluck too close. This is ESPECIALLY annoying upon respawn, since you are forced to drop and pluck and Ness can just throw a pk fire at you, then run in for the free grab. Either you get grabbed, or you have to somehow fend him off with at most 1-2 pikimin.

If the Ness is good with PK Thunder(like Colin is), then he seems able to juggle Olimar in the air really well. If Ness gets us into the air, he can try to hit with PKT's tail - if it connects, he can either hit with it again or loop it around to hit himself with PKT2 right into Olimar. Olimar is so floaty in the air that it's not hard at all for a Ness to get the hit off, since he will have two chances per projectile unless Olly is far away. I've managed to whistle the ifirst hit once or twice, but it's still free damage and I often have to deal with a PK fire as I land.

I didn't touch on Fair and gimping because those were covered very well already. But I think Ness's B moves are nearly as dangerous if the Ness knows what he's doing.

 

[FOW]

50-50, weroup is the best olimar evah :3 we still have an un-finished MM negro >:O

 

[Weruop]

ah thx >.< <3
yeah lmao. im up 1-0 ,'fao'

 

[Plasma Pikmin]

FOW says: You got lucky that I SD'd after I brought it back.

 

[Noa.]

Ness is a character with many KO moves, most that are neither easy or hard to hit with. But Ness has a KO move for practically every situation. Uair is good when airchasing. Nair can KO while edgeguarding. Bthrow punishes a misake. Dair is a potential spike of stage. Bair is an approaching KO move. He has a few more.

Just be very wary with Ness around KO percents. He has many given KO options. I'm not sure how they measure up in this matchup, but that's what I know about Ness in general.

 

[Weruop]

xD tell FOW hes lucky Rich warmed him up >.<
and that im 1 match away from winning another set :D

 

[Cacti]

I've got a little experience in this matchup, but most of what I say is probably just theory.

Olimar wants to say firmly planted onto the ground. In the air, he is juggled easily with PKT tailwhip > head, and can be KO'd with a rising uair, which I think will trade hits with Olimar's down air. Watch out for this, and air dodge through it. Fair outranges everything Olimar's got in the air, and can wreck him with strings of it.

Fair auto-canceling into a jab is almost a true combo I believe, missing out by one frame, so you'll want to buffer a shield and then grab Ness.

As said earlier, short hop->fair->double jump->rising fair is a pretty good approach against Oli. The main thing to keep in mind right here is to try and catch his landing after the double jump. After the double jump he'll likely either space himself with another fair while he lands, land directly onto your shield with a fair, or dair to cover himself from below.

• If he lands near you simply pivotgrab him.
• If he's far away try to Upb him.
• If he's diagonal and up to you, and you're sure he won't use a falling dair, you can upair. (His dair will kill your upair pikmin if the hitboxes collide. It's better to just not challenge his foot)
• If there's no way to punish him, throw a yellow to rack a couple percent damage, or just leave it at that. You don't want to run in with a grab. He'll just use a really safe rising aerial off the ground.

As a note, running back a little then fair/bairing Ness while he's using dair should als

 

[smash64]

personaly i think the match up is 50:50 just because Olimar has the advantage on the ground and ness has the advange on the air

 

[Llumys]

personaly i think the match up is 50:50 just because Olimar has the advantage on the ground and ness has the advange on the air

If that were the case, most of Olimar's match-ups would be 50:50.


Anyway, I think the match-up is 55-45 in our favour. Olimar's toss game is pretty much rendered useless, but Ness still can't do much Olimar if the Olimar keeps center-stage.

 

[Uffe]

The Ness boards say it's 55:45, Ness. But hey, if FOW says it's 50:50 and he's played some of the top Olimar mains, then I'll go with that. I for one suck against Olimar, but that's because I lack that match up experience. Anyway, a lot of Ness' aerials can break through a lot of Olimar's attacks. Nair and dair seem to work quite effectively.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

The Ness boards say it's 55:45, Ness. But hey, if FOW says it's 50:50 and he's played some of the top Olimar mains, then I'll go with that.

Wait... what? What if Weruop's notably better than FOW? Or there's something FOW isn't doing that would make the matchup more in Ness' favor, even though he's considered one of the best Ness' (If not the best, apparently)?

Ness just outdoes a LOT of what Olimar's capable of doing. On stage his fair messes us up, out prioritizing all of our smashes/aerials. Retreating pivot grabs when lands an approach is our only way of getting a hit on Ness on stage. Nair messes up our camping. Jab protects him on landing, preventing us from shield grabbing his fair, although we may be able to grab him after the jab, i'm not sure. Ness' grab is AMAZING for starting juggles, and he has just the tools to effectively juggle us as well.

Off stage we have problems gimping him, while he gets gimps on us somewhat easily, again with Fair. His off stage gimps aren't guaranteed, but considering Olimar has problems recovering to begin with, it gives us more problems than it should.

We both excel at getting kills, and both have to mostly rely on getting them from grabs, as landing an usmash through his fair will be difficult. His back throw is slightly better than ours and is quicker, but ours has more range, so they're both good in different ways. However ours is easier to DI and live, while his will kill you around 120 no matter what.

As for what we have on him, our purple pikmin work well in the matchup, throwing him off balance. Probably the best pikmin in the matchup. Our uair outdoes his aerials, just like it does to almost every character. We have the Pikmin PKT gimp off stage, as hard as it is to pull off against a smart Ness. Our pivot grabs are our main saving grace, if Ness lands after an approach (as I said above). But this becomes less reliable the closer we get to the edge. And getting around Ness once we're cornered is difficult. His grab easily punishes a roll and he outdoes us in the air completely. But pivot grabs would definitely be our most usable tool in the matchup.

Now, I wan't someone to tell me what's missing from my explanation. Because apparently there's something that makes this matchup 50:50 and I'm just not seeing it. And considering some say it's in Olimar's favor, I must REALLY be wrong. So if I am, go ahead and tell me. But don't just post "It's 50:50", type a sentence or two that may or may not have relevance to the matchup and be done with it.

 

[Uffe]

Wait... what? What if Weruop's notably better than FOW? Or there's something FOW isn't doing that would make the matchup more in Ness' favor, even though he's considered one of the best Ness' (If not the best, apparently)?

Ness just outdoes a LOT of what Olimar's capable of doing. On stage his fair messes us up, out prioritizing all of our smashes/aerials. Retreating pivot grabs when lands an approach is our only way of getting a hit on Ness on stage. Nair messes up our camping. Jab protects him on landing, preventing us from shield grabbing his fair, although we may be able to grab him after the jab, i'm not sure. Ness' grab is AMAZING for starting juggles, and he has just the tools to effectively juggle us as well.

Off stage we have problems gimping him, while he gets gimps on us somewhat easily, again with Fair. His off stage gimps aren't guaranteed, but considering Olimar has problems recovering to begin with, it gives us more problems than it should.

We both excel at getting kills, and both have to mostly rely on getting them from grabs, as landing an usmash through his fair will be difficult. His back throw is slightly better than ours and is quicker, but ours has more range, so they're both good in different ways. However ours is easier to DI and live, while his will kill you around 120 no matter what.

As for what we have on him, our purple pikmin work well in the matchup, throwing him off balance. Probably the best pikmin in the matchup. Our uair outdoes his aerials, just like it does to almost every character. We have the Pikmin PKT gimp off stage, as hard as it is to pull off against a smart Ness. Our pivot grabs are our main saving grace, if Ness lands after an approach (as I said above). But this becomes less reliable the closer we get to the edge. And getting around Ness once we're cornered is difficult. His grab easily punishes a roll and he outdoes us in the air completely. But pivot grabs would definitely be our most usable tool in the matchup.

Now, I wan't someone to tell me what's missing from my explanation. Because apparently there's something that makes this matchup 50:50 and I'm just not seeing it. And considering some say it's in Olimar's favor, I must REALLY be wrong. So if I am, go ahead and tell me. But don't just post "It's 50:50", type a sentence or two that may or may not have relevance to the matchup and be done with it.

A lot of what you just wrote pretty much sums it up. Ness' has the air, Olimar has the ground. We can't really get a grab on you without risking getting punished. And it's not exactly what we need to use to kill Olimar as Ness has more kill options than just a simple back throw. I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before on the Ness boards or it wouldn't have come up as 55:45, Ness, because we don't just pick a character and assume.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Ness' grab would mainly be used for punishment. How long does it take to come out? If we miss space an attack, or mess up in some way, it's pretty easy for Ness to get a grab to punish us. And yeah, I know Back Throw isn't your only kill move, but it's definitely one of (if not) your best, at least against Olimar.

 

[Weruop]

50 50 or 45 55 i reaaally dunno though. i think saying its even would be safe.
i barely beat FOW in mm cuz he SD'd and we started a new set and i won match 1 b4 we were kicked off of the TV. its a really close matchup

 

[Uffe]

Ness' grab would mainly be used for punishment. How long does it take to come out? If we miss space an attack, or mess up in some way, it's pretty easy for Ness to get a grab to punish us. And yeah, I know Back Throw isn't your only kill move, but it's definitely one of (if not) your best, at least against Olimar.

The things I avoid using vs Olimar are PK Thunder and grabbing. The thing is Olimar has almost a lagless tether grab, which is amazing! If Ness comes to grab Olimar, Olimar can easily grab him first. Take Ness to a stage like Battlefield and you close off most of Ness' options except maybe PK Fire. I mean it's not impossible for Ness to get Olimar out of his safe zone, but it puts Ness in a tough spot.

I could be wrong, though. I did mention that I barely have any match up experience against Olimar. Than again, Ness can kill off a lot of Olimar's Pikmin making Olimar open when he plucks more out of the ground. Anyway, Ness' grab is about average. It's improved since Melee and doing a pivot grab may very well work or a dash grab, either one.

 

[Weruop]

If Ness comes to grab Olimar, Olimar can easily grab him first

ness's grab is way faster lol

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Olimar's grab takes 11 frames to come out... again, I said Ness would be using his grab for punishment and juggles. Not challenging our grab lol

 

[Uffe]

ness's grab is way faster lol

How so? I get my *** grabbed by Olimar a lot whenever I make an attempt.

 

[Llumys]

How so? I get my *** grabbed by Olimar a lot whenever I make an attempt.

Spacing.

K.

 

[Uffe]

Spacing.

K.

You can't really space if you go and try to grab your opponent.

 

[Llumys]

You can't really space if you go and try to grab your opponent.

Spacing doesn't mean staying away from your opponent, it means keeping a desired space between you and your opponent, even if it's a few inches.

If you desire to be right in front of them, and if you manage to, it's good spacing. Olimar can't grab right in front of himself.

I could be wrong about the term, but that's how I see it.

I'm not saying that staying that close is a good idea, but it works if you're both grabbing.

k

 

[AvariceX]

Ness dash grab grabs on frame 8
Pivot grab grabs on frame 6 (making it the fastest pivot grab in the game).
Standing grab is bad.

 

[Noa.]

Another way to land the grab with Ness.

If you constantly Fair our shield and go to jab we'll be conditioned to hold up our shield for the duration of your jab. But if you do fair to grab, you beat our shield. Mixups between jab after fair and grab after fair would help a lot in trying to grab us.

 

[DanGR]

edit: I'm not going to go through and edit the orange out of this post. >__>

Jab protects him on landing, preventing us from shield grabbing his fair, although we may be able to grab him after the jab, i'm not sure.

It does have enough after lag for us to punish it out of shield if he uses all three hits. I've shield dropped and done running upsmashes before. It's not hard.

As for what we have on him, our purple pikmin work well in the matchup, throwing him off balance. Probably the best pikmin in the matchup.

Well, I sort of disagree here. Purples are really good, like you said, but yellows are a god-send. The disjointedness on all of the yellow attacks help out a bunch. They allow us to attack through his electric attacks with ease. (think upsmash going through Ness' fair) It helps a lot.

Purples are only really good for throwing while Ness is approaching and when he's offstage trying to recover. They're horrible when it comes to trying to space on the ground.

Our uair outdoes his aerials, just like it does to almost every character.

Well, keep in mind that if Ness hits the pikmin in our upair with a dair, the pikmin will die and Ness will go through and hit Oli. Using upair to fend off Ness when he's edgeguarding isn't as useful in this matchup for that reason.

Now, I want someone to tell me what's missing from my explanation. Because apparently there's something that makes this matchup 50:50 and I'm just not seeing it. And considering some say it's in Olimar's favor, I must REALLY be wrong. So if I am, go ahead and tell me. But don't just post "It's 50:50", type a sentence or two that may or may not have relevance to the matchup and be done with it.

I'm not sure what ratio I'd give this matchup, as I have yet to fight a Ness player of my level that knows how to play the matchup correctly and well.

I think something you're not accounting for is the predictability of Ness' approaches. Ness, like most characters, is fairly limited when it comes to how many different approaches he can use on Oli. His ground game is shut down so he has to go through the air. What's his best aerial approach? His standard spacing, zoning, and approaching attack is a simple short hop fair, which can be double jumped directly afterwards. As useful a tool as this is, it really doesn't do a lot of damage unless all of the sparks hit. That and it'll be diminished a lot.

As long as the Olimar player can hit Ness out of his approaches about a third of the time (assuming both players will followup their hits well, if possible), he'll be able to keep in stride with Ness %-wise. Olimar does have some tools to deal with the short hop fair approach- mainly purples as interrupters, yellows to outrange Ness/go through his attacks and start combos (the yellows' added hitstun helps to combo at near-low percentages), pivotgrabbing of course, and Upbs to catch Ness after some double jumped aerials.

Olimar can try to deal with fast falled fairs directly onto him by trying to avoid that situation all together, pivotgrabbing, and rolling away. Think about how you deal with G&W's turtle and apply the same concept to Ness' fair. You stay spaced, pivotgrab his landing if you can, and maybe roll away if you can't run away in time to not get hit. If Ness lands the fair on your shield, he has won that small battle. Don't let it happen. (That's easy for me to say, lol)

50 50 or 45 55 i reaaally dunno though. i think saying its even would be safe.
i barely beat FOW in mm cuz he SD'd and we started a new set and i won match 1 b4 we were kicked off of the TV. its a really close matchup

Maybe it'd help to explain what about FOW's Ness gave you trouble. What areas did you excel in? What should we watch out for and how do we get around it? That sort of stuff.

Another way to land the grab with Ness.

If you constantly Fair our shield and go to jab we'll be conditioned to hold up our shield for the duration of your jab. But if you do fair to grab, you beat our shield. Mixups between jab after fair and grab after fair would help a lot in trying to grab us.

I'd like to elaborate on this point.

Another great mixup Ness has after a fair is to short hop dair after you land the fair on Oli's shield. Like the fair, a dair->jab will also interrupt a shieldgrab. If you see the Olimar player roll back, you can just aim the dair directly in front of where he's rolling and then jab afterwards. In a way, this is similar to Peach's floating dair where she fairs your shield, jumps+floats a dair, and then waits a bit to punish any movement.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

That's exactly what I wanted to see, DanGR. Reading what you wrote seems to balance the matchup out and in no way seems like the "40:60" we had previously, by any means. However, for the fact that Ness is better at approaching, gimping, juggling, and quite possibly killing, than us I still feel 45:55 fits perfectly. But I'm starting to see 50:50 seeming reasonable as well.

Yeah, I can see yellows working the best in the matchup. Usmash would be far too difficult to land on Ness other than for punishment, and its main use would be in Toss, to throw off his approaches, which isn't entirely reliable, while yellow usmash, fsmash, and fair, can outdo his fair. In fact I can see Yellow Pikmin alone changing the matchup from 45:55 to 50:50, to be honest.

Speaking of which, I think deciding which pikmin are most usable should be included in our matchup discussions. It's just about as important as stage counterpicks, and could even play into stage CPs as well. For Ness I'm feeling Yellow > Blue/Purple > Red > White

Theorycraft time :D

Ness' Fair -> Jab vs Olimar's Shield -> Shield Grab

If Ness fairs our shield and we shield the three hits from jab as well, we're able to shield grab or whatever we want, due to the lag afterwards. So we'd basically be waiting for the third hit of the jab to hit our shield to throw out our grab, when it's safe. However, what if Ness doesn't send out the full jab? What if he fairs, throws out a jab to make sure we werent trying to shield grab his fair, then jumps back after the first or second hit (preferable first)? Or what if he fairs our shield, throws out the first jab, cancels the jab and throws out a grab? We're already in the mindset that we're just gonna shield through the whole thing until the "safe spot" after Ness' third jab hit, but what if it never comes? Considering we wouldn't be able to counter his grab until he already sent it out (when it's too late), it makes his approach not so "predictable". This, to an extent, changes Ness' approach options up a bit, doesn't it? Or am I thinking on it too much ^^;

Also, Ness' grab would effectively come out faster than I think anything we have in this situation. Not sure how long it would take for us to drop our shield and jab or dtilt him away but I can't think it of being reliable, considering we don't know if he's going to do all three hits, do one/two and cancel the jab to grab or get the **** away after the first/second jab hit.That's five options he has following his fair, right? Some we'd deal with in a similar way, some wouldn't give us too big of a problem (jumping away). But considering we basically have to hide behind our shield in this situation, trying to predict what he's going to do next, it could be a problem. But I may be putting too much thought into this >.>

Thanks AvariceX for the frame data. His grab isn't as fast as I thought it was, but it's by no means slower than ours ^^; Can you or someone link me to Ness' frame data? Pretty sure I remember seeing it a long time ago, but I wasn't able to find it (I need to resticky our frame data or something so it's easier to find too....). Haha, how good is Ness' jab cancel to grab anyways? If it's not worth you all doing I definitely just wasted twenty minutes writing this out @_@.

Edit: I'll list out what options and whatnot we both have when it's not 4:30 in the morning.

 

[Cacti]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197824

Scroll down past the moveset for frame data.

 

[Tin Man]

From what I know about the matchup, I wouldnt say ness has an advantage. PK fire spam isnt much of a problem since the pikmin can stop it, but then again ness can stop pikmin spam with neutral air. Fair has a lot of priority and only yellow pikmin can get through it, its best the olimar stay on the ground. It is hard for ness to deal with pivot grab from olimar, ness can't absorb our projectile, and we can gimp ness with pikmin throw, any colour that lathes o will stop his pk thunder, and the same goes for forward smash. Mess will also have a hard time grabbing us cause of our range, and when ness is above us, its not that hard to uair, cause ness' down air has lower priority, however ness' air speed is greater then our, so we would have to run on the ground to chase him. when we are above ness, ness' u air isnt a big problem, whistle will go through it, and there is enough lag to punish it.