Weekly Match-up Discussion~ #5: Diddy Kong

[DTP]

Image by ~Pdubbsquared

Diddy Kong​

Week 4!
Here's our second character for the week!

Diddy is thought by many to be one of the best in the game. His speed, ground game, and Banana tricks can be very difficult to overcome. But, apparently Luigi has an easier time than most!

On the ground, a good Diddy can basically control the stage (stage dependent). But Luigi is more of an aerialist, so that gives us an edge right there.
Let's get a good discussion going on what gives us an edge in this match up.


What to think about.

- Bananas.......
They're a real pain. BUT, they can be used against diddy. Do we have an Banana tricks that can be used?
- Now we won't be in the air all the time. So what ground options do we have and what should we look out for?
- Gimping Diddy should be possible. What should we think about when we find our opponent off the edge?
- The stages we shouldn't go to are obvious. But how should we play if we happen to go to them? What are good CP options?


Here's a great way to discuss match ups if you want to use it. Mentioned by Teneban.

1) First thoughts
2) What followups after a jab do we have ?
3) Approaching
4) Defense & camping
5) Edge game
6) The KO stuff
7)Stage stuff

 

[A2ZOMG]

55/45 or 6/4 Luigi's favor.

Diddy Kong really can't reliably kill Luigi at all, and a good portion of his combo game in general is shot just because Luigi slides away too much for him to follow up when he takes a hit. Luigi's low traction basically helps him SO MUCH in this matchup. You're not really going to do much out of shield against Diddy no matter who you are anyway, so being able to gtfo while shielding is amazing.

Also, Luigi has a reliable KO setup in this matchup (well, sorta). If you can land a glidetossed Banana, you can get a free F-smash easily.

Just beware, Diddy can edgeguard you pretty well with his Bananas which outprioritize everything, so don't telegraph your recovery too much. Otherwise Luigi just plain outdoes Diddy at dealing damage and killing. D-air camping is also really good, both for countering his DA, and picking up his Bananas.

 

[Gnes]

This matchup is even. Dair camping is horrible against diddy since his fair outranges everything luigi has in the air(save maybe bair, i believe they trade hits at perfect spacing). Also, d-tilt/ftilt out ranges all of luigis grounded moves, stops tornado, and isn't punishable thanks to shield push.

I dont possibly understand how people believe this matchup is bad for diddy. The only thing Luigi has going for him in this matchup is that his weird traction makes comboing from a naner HARDER, not impossible.

 

[yoshq]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK8mcBbfmIU

 

[luke_atyeo]

luigi doesnt have a tornado.

I havnt really had much chance to practice this matchup so my opinions arent very useful, but I dare say you think that 'greatness', because you havnt played a good luigi, after all, good luigi mainers are pretty rare.

but not as rare as diddy (get it? rare?)

wow my jokes are horrible.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This matchup is even. Dair camping is horrible against diddy since his fair outranges everything luigi has in the air(save maybe bair, i believe they trade hits at perfect spacing). Also, d-tilt/ftilt out ranges all of luigis grounded moves, stops tornado, and isn't punishable thanks to shield push.

Not being able to punish Diddy's D-tilt or F-tilt doesn't matter, since under normal circumstances, you're not SUPPOSED to be able to punish Diddy's ground game. It's a much higher priority to gtfo when he's pressuring you.

D-air camping stuffs most of his approaches and lets you pick up Bananas safely, which is why its really good. It usually trades if he manages to attack you, and you outdamage him. Seriously, even though Diddy's F-air might have range, you shouldn't underestimate how safe Luigi's D-air is. It has basically no ending lag, and it ignores most ground assaults, which is where Diddy's strength lies.

I dont possibly understand how people believe this matchup is bad for diddy. The only thing Luigi has going for him in this matchup is that his weird traction makes comboing from a naner HARDER, not impossible.

Diddy Kong literally doesn't have a legitimate KO strategy against Luigi that KOs at reasonable percents (besides a lucky edgeguard). That's why it is bad for him.

All Luigi has to do to never get killed is shieldcamp.

Luigi simply outdoes Diddy in terms of damage dealing and KO options. By killing his main gimmick which is super reliable shield pressure and KO setups, Diddy Kong is forced to rely more on his other base attributes, which are for the most part unimpressive.

 

[hippiedude92]

Believe it or not, this matchup goes pretty deep. ( ask Mblaze)

55:45 Luigi
at worst for luigi, 5/5
at best for luigi 6/4

ratios go differing with bananas for obvious reasons

 

[A2ZOMG]

Diddy Kong also gets CP ***** much harder than Luigi for the most part.

 

[LuigiKing]

You should never lose to a diddy on your counterpick. Go Rainbow or Brinstar and try to lose, lol. Yeah I think the matchup is 6:4 Luigi's favor for a couple of different reasons. Though I do think it might still be slightly diddys favor on FD.... I cannot play Diddy on FD =/

 

[TreK]

YoshQ, that was quite good but you were predictable with the nanas and wasted a good tool. Remember it doesn't give you any frame advantage when blocked ; trips must be set up to be any good
It's still a decent representation of this MU because it shows how hard each character must work for the kill.

1) First thoughts
Luigi's banana game is poor, compared to Peach/MK/Marth/ICs/Falco's. Though he can profit of a trip more than anyone (trip-upB-taunt), his setups are decent at best, not even near reliable.
In fact, Luigi shines because his ANTI-banana game is the greatest in the game by far.
Diddy can set up a kill or a combo out of a SINGLE succesful trip against everyone, BUT Luigi. What it implies :
-No combos means Diddy will have a hard time building up % until killing %s, and this is huge :V
-No kills means you don't die until YOU mess up, and coupled with the "no combos" point, this is what makes this matchup super super hard for the diddy. What I mean is that it feels just like Luigi vs Wario for the Diddy, you see ?

Then why do I keep saying it's even ?
Diddy is still n°4 in the game, he is still the character that is able to outcamp like 49 out of the 35 characters on each and every stage allowed in tournaments ; Luigi is no exception to this onslaught, and camping diminishes Diddy's weakness in this matchup greatly.

Also, Luigi can STILL get grabbed out of a trip, which lets Diddy throw him offstage, where DDK is supeeeer advantaged, and a gimp means our greatest advantage becomes useless.
Don't forget tripping on floored bananas will make you trip in place, and eat a fresh, charged dsmash. Don't get trapped into a floored banana.

3) Approaching
Diddy's fair is a huge wall to overcome. It outranges and is faster than every aerial we have beside bair, beats cyclone and fireballs, BUT Diddy will be helpless for the rest of his shorthop, so he will only use it well if you're getting predictable.
If Diddy's holding a banana, it means he's waiting for you to move. Diddy can punish everything (standing banana toss = infinite priority projectile on frame 3, get *****.), don't get trapped. stay on the floor a bit and powershield anything that's coming
You can steal bananas by :
-powershielding them then catching them when they bounce,
-aerial it (fair and its 22 frames ftw), and remember you can do another non-nair aerial after picking it up without throwing it,
-airdodge it (good to pick up grounded bananas),
-Z catch it
-dash attacking it but since Luigi's dah attack is so bad I'd suggest letting go of the control stick then pressing A, it will make you do the standing pick up animation.
-Teching on it

You can also throw it back at diddy instantly by airdodging it and pressing A right after (it may need a couple minutes training mode to figure out)

Then, it can be used as a shield pressure tool, a way to setup combos but I wouldn't recommend that if you aren't accustomed to glide tosses and their uses, go test stuff in training mode first.
You can Z drop or dodge drop them (R+A without a direction, it will make you airdodge and Z drop at the same time, so no lag and free shieldstun) to stop approaches or to make your own approaches safer, throwing it up can be a way to stall diddy out and make him hesitant. They are also excellent ledgeguarding tools, Diddy's weak there already but if you do traps with his bananas, he can get damaged quite a lot.
If Diddy starts spamming peanuts, try to take them too ; it gives you a glide toss and tricks that go with it :
-You can crawldash to cancel the slide and have a useless WTFSUPRISEEFFECT.
-The momentum boost stops you from getting pushed back when shielding.
-Gives shieldstun for traps.
Don't forget that throwing it isn't always the best solution (see how YoshQ didn't land a trip in his vid, even if he stole 3 bananas, because he only glide tossed them to ADHD's shield) ; you can still fireball and cyclone with it, get on the diddy's nerves a bit. If you're motivated with the matchup, learn aerials with bananas.

A cool trick I use when being baited is z dropping or air dtossing a nana on the Diddy's shield then cyclone the back of his shield. The banana will bounce, giving enough shieldstun for me to cyclone, which is unpunishable for diddy when you're in the back of a shield until the end of it, but the banana will fall down through his shield and make him slip in place, ready to get either tech chased or killed.

4) Defense & Camping
Luigi's nowhere dangerous when camping, but Diddy will have a hard time getting back the lead.
Our shield slides from every single hit so Diddy is not even able to frame trap us into a grab
We can shoryuken a shielded dash attack, btw.

7)Stage stuff
Well of course, ban DF, and strike SV unless you really want to loose money. Diddy wins on DF, SV, and JJ. Everywhere else, it's either even, or in Luigi's advantage.
With the SBR ruleset, we're boosted vs Diddy.

LK, Diddy's nowhere bad anywhere, diddies just usually suck on RC and over-train on neutrals =/. Do not CP P-1 to RC
Brinstar is probably Diddy's worst stage vs Luigi.

I agree with Luigi 55-45 Diddy.

my 2nd longest post ever, I hope it didn't seem any arrogant, I'm just listing everything I can think of which may be all bull**** lol
**** brawl, I love this game too much lol

 

[Player-1]

Personally, I think it's 6-4 Luigi. I play BigLou very often and go just about even with him nowadays (granted that he still beats me in tournament sets, but the last few times we've played it's been 2-1 him and the last stock is always both of us 100+ damage or so).


As for racking up damage, both Diddy and Luigi have very good methods of racking up damage on each other. Diddy has his bananas and combos and Luigi has he great aerial game. Now Diddy can still combo with bananas just as good as he can ANY character, the problem comes when it comes to killing. Diddy can still Ftilt, DA, and grab (sometimes) and combo, so you have to rely on your dash attack a lot more, but it still helps a lot in the matchup because usually it will send Luigi up from you in a diagnol and Diddy can space a Fair to beat his aerial or just avoid it copletely. The other angle it will send you is directly up, which, since it doesn't happen has much, I'm a bit less familiar with these options. Luigi can pretty much do 4 things at this point: nair, dair, air dodge, or jump away. Now, I'm pretty sure that Diddy can get a utilt/usmash/something in there before Luigi has time to get his aerial in there, and if he can't then he can just shield. Now, Diddy can still get grabs in there if Luigi is close enough, but his dash attack affects Luigi a bit more than most characters. I'd also like to mention that if Luigi combos you with a nair at low percents then you can a lot of time combo him out of that with a Uair (I actually remember once where I Utilt > Uair which also clashed with his nair > Uair again > other aerial I can't remember at this time on Biglou =) ).

Now when it comes to killing, Luigi definitely has the advantage. Like I said before, Luigi can avoid Diddy's killing setups because of his trip animation. Luigi's Fsmash and up-bis pretty easy to avoid, his Usmah, Fair, Dsmash, and his Bthrow are good, but with good DI, they can be lived through fairly easy and his nair, dair, utilt, and bthrow get diminished from the usage. Now all of these kill moves are kind of crappy by themselves, as for any kill move, but he is has a wide range of them and can usually mix some of them up to get the kill in the end. Diddy's best kill moves, at least in this matchup, are his Fsmash, Dsmash, and Fair with Bair, Fthrow, and ftilt being decent backups. His setups for Fsmash and Dsmash are nullified and his fair can become predictable because you're also using it rack up damage. That's why Diddy's best chance at a kill is either to rack up a bunch of damage and try to kill with a fair or to rack up a bit less and try to kill by predicting something perhaps a mistimed aerial or air dodge or something like predicting his roll from slipping on a banana. The biggest problem is that since Luigi can kill low with his Fsmash and up-b is that just one little mistake can cost you a stock with you still below 100%, Diddy doesn't have this advantage and usually goes through the same routine every stock, unless he gets a gimp.

I think that Diddy has the advantage when it comes to gimping. His fair beats his side-b (unless it's a misfire in which case they clash) so if he's not going to be gimped, he's going to take quite a bit of damage, this is actually usually how I get a kill against Luigi. This forces Luigi to recover from below, but this is also dangerous because Diddy's bananas can knock him out of his down-b making him lose a lot of momentum. Diddy can also barrel spike luigi if he uses his up-b and gets the single coin. The best way for Luigi to recover IMO is either high or space your down-b so you're out of range of the bananas and that you recover just a bit above the stage, it's also very important to keep your midair jump if possible. When recovering with Diddy, you can't really use your side-b to get back to the stage if he's hanging on the edge and your on level with the stage or below it because Luigi can drop down and dair you which has a good chance of stage spiking you, so it's also very important that you save your midair jump to avoid this. If you don't have your midair then it's sometimes best to recover away from the stage with your up-b, but if Luigi reads you right then he can get an Fsmash on you or gimp you depending on which option you take.

I think Luigi has an easier time approaching Diddy than he does. Luigi has a good mix up of aerials which helps vary your approaches. Diddy has a good camping game against Luigi on bigger stages like FD, but that's often banned making it more difficult for Diddy to camp because of your down-b. It's pretty fast and has a good bit of priority so it makes it hard for Diddy to camp with low priority and slow peanuts on smaller stages, on bigger stages it's not much as a problem. So the best thing I can think of is just play safe and try to predict it and shoot a peanut every once in a while which is more difficult, Diddy usually will have to approach with bananas to be successful with other random things such as dash attack, fairs, side-bs, and grabs every once in a while to keep your playstyle more fresh.

Luigi's best CPs IMO are Lylat, Brinstar, Halberd, and Norfair (when legal) and BF for your best neutral. The best Diddy CPs are FD, SV, PS1, Jugle Japes (when legal), and Castle Siege which is my favorite CP against Luigis. This is usually where I CP BigLou and I've only lost to him once out of like the 7ish times I've CPed it. The first transformation is pretty neutral, the 2nd transformation Luigi has a chance of sliding off the screen and if he doesn't you can at least pressure him back as he tries to get back in the middle, same goes for the inter-transformations. Otherwise, it's a good big stage and is in Diddy's favor, oh and it has higher ceilings. The 3rd transformation is like a tilting FD which you just do FD stuff and win. The inter-transformation things is Diddy's best chance to shine because it's basically FD PLUS you have a good chance of getting a banana trip off of him which can slide him to the far right/left and if he spawns in the first or 3rd transformation then he can appear offstage which gives you a good chance to gimp him or get a lot of damage on him.

 

[FuZz%]

glide tossing bananas works really well....

performing it correctly can make Luigi slide across almost any level and it's a good setup for an up+b.

 

[Gnes]

luigi doesnt have a tornado.

I havnt really had much chance to practice this matchup so my opinions arent very useful, but I dare say you think that greatness, because you havnt played a good luigi, after all, good luigi mainers are pretty rare.

but not as rare as diddy (get it? rare?)

wow my jokes are horrible.

I have...a good while ago.

Not being able to punish Diddy's D-tilt or F-tilt doesn't matter, since under normal circumstances, you're not SUPPOSED to be able to punish Diddy's ground game. It's a much higher priority to gtfo when he's pressuring you.

D-air camping stuffs most of his approaches and lets you pick up Bananas safely, which is why its really good. It usually trades if he manages to attack you, and you outdamage him. Seriously, even though Diddy's F-air might have range, you shouldn't underestimate how safe Luigi's D-air is. It has basically no ending lag, and it ignores most ground assaults, which is where Diddy's strength lies.

Diddy Kong literally doesn't have a legitimate KO strategy against Luigi that KOs at reasonable percents (besides a lucky edgeguard). That's why it is bad for him.

All Luigi has to do to never get killed is shieldcamp.

Luigi simply outdoes Diddy in terms of damage dealing and KO options. By killing his main gimmick which is super reliable shield pressure and KO setups, Diddy Kong is forced to rely more on his other base attributes, which are for the most part unimpressive.

Since when does diddy approach considering how easy it is to camp luigi, and why would he throw a naner from a distance considering it cant combo unless he's up close. Luigi's dair is not safe lol, your bair is alot more safer in this matchup. Shieldcamping is a horrible idea. Also how can u deal damage better if diddy's moves almost completely outrange yours, thats silly.

Also in regards to diddy having no kill setups, Zair drop>smash(just like against any other chr.), Cross over>smash(just like any other chr.). The only difference in this matchup is that he cant use glidetoss forward/backward as a reliable kill setup.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Since when does diddy approach considering how easy it is to camp luigi, and why would he throw a naner from a distance considering it cant combo unless he's up close. Luigi's dair is not safe lol, your bair is alot more safer in this matchup. Shieldcamping is a horrible idea. Also how can u deal damage better if diddy's moves almost completely outrange yours, thats silly.

No, I would not B-air in this matchup unless it's for edgeguarding. It's much too laggy and doesn't hit below you well enough. When you D-air, you leave your options open to cancel into another action.

Luigi has more damaging combos, and his Jab combos into all sorts of dumb stuff that can potentially kill, while Diddy really can't pressure Luigi enough with Bananas to reliably set up any kills.

Shieldcamping is AMAZING against Diddy when you're Luigi because the point is HE CAN'T KILL YOU.

Diddy at any rate doesn't want to F-air much in this matchup because it's MAD punishable. He's probably going to trade hits with Luigi anyway. If you just D-air outside of his F-air range, you have the zoning advantage because he has fewer moves that he can throw out safely, while if he does whiff something, you can almost assuredly punish it with the Cyclone (spamming Cyclone from long distances is a bad idea in this matchup, but it's still a very good punishing tool)

It's not even that hard for Luigi to approach Diddy since you can just randomly D-air and if he's far away, he can't do anything to you. His Bananas get picked up by D-air, and then you can toss them back or do whatever, and he doesn't have any good ground moves or safe aerial rush tactics.

Also in regards to diddy having no kill setups, Zair drop>smash(just like against any other chr.), Cross over>smash(just like any other chr.). The only difference in this matchup is that he cant use glidetoss forward/backward as a reliable kill setup.

If you are seriously letting Diddy get away with something as silly as that, you're doing this matchup wrong.

Crossovers get killed by Luigi's Up-smash.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

by the way, I like n-air to pick up bananas due to it lasting so long. I thought i posted in this topic, but it doesn't seem to have showed up

its 6-4 Luigi or 55-45. Luigi overall has more stages to exploit and diddy simply can't kill that well. Ban FD and Castle Seige. They'll probably pick Smashville. I personalyl like Brinstar, Norfair, and any stage with a low ceiling like Haliberd. Also, if you space well enough, your back air will work better than diddy's f-air. Just be careful off the ledge to prevent gimps.

Also, you can rising down b diddy out of his up b off the stage for a quick gimp.

 

[Gnes]

Shieldcamping is AMAZING against Diddy when you're Luigi because the point is HE CAN'T KILL YOU. I still don't understand how shieldcamping is a good idea. If my moves outrange yours, i can hit your shield with a variety of moves and not be punished, and diddy's moves to utilize in this matchup are already meant for poking.....ugh....

Diddy at any rate doesn't want to F-air much in this matchup because it's MAD punishable. He's probably going to trade hits with Luigi anyway. If you just D-air outside of his F-air range, you have the zoning advantage because he has fewer moves that he can throw out safely, while if he does whiff something, you can almost assuredly punish it with the Cyclone (spamming Cyclone from long distances is a bad idea in this matchup, but it's still a very good punishing tool)Zoning advantage comes when of your moves can SAFELY outrange one of the opponents. Dair by no means can outrange diddy's fair so how would u have the zoning advantage?

It's not even that hard for Luigi to approach Diddy since you can just randomly D-air and if he's far away, he can't do anything to you. His Bananas get picked up by D-air, and then you can toss them back or do whatever, and he doesn't have any good ground moves or safe aerial rush tactics.

Okay...first if luigi is approaching diddy, why is he far away? Secondly, diddy's up smash beats any aerial luigi does. So if ur randomly spamming dair, be prepared for up smash to beat it 100% of the time. I've already mentioned his good ground moves, which beat out all of luigis.

If you are seriously letting Diddy get away with something as silly as that, you're doing this matchup wrong.

Crossovers get killed by Luigi's Up-smash.

Okay i should have been more specific. If diddy crosses over your shield via forward dribbling, u are in no form or fashion going to punish him for it. If u drop your shield u trip on the banana...if u stay in your shield he does whatever he wants...if u jump he hits u with a aerial. Completely safe and can lead into consistent kills.

Check the red

 

[A2ZOMG]

Check the red

I'd appreciate if you didn't put responses within quotes since that is stupidly inconvenient for the person making a reply.

firstoff it doesn't matter that stuff is safe on block against Luigi because the point is you don't get to put much shield pressure on Luigi under normal circumstances. Not being pressured by Diddy = not ever dying. You can do 180% to Luigi and never kill him, while he takes his time knowing that he can do about 70% and kill you with an Up-angled F-smash after he lands a glidetoss

Up-smash doesn't beat Luigi's D-air or N-air. You underestimate its vertical range and the height of Luigi's SH. It also has virtually no ending lag, so if he starts it up a little early, he can just N-air or air dodge if you're going under him.

If you're outside Diddy's F-air range, he can't do anything that doesn't get punished by one of Luigi's MUCH less laggy aerials or Cyclone. Simple as that. Safety is more determined by the player's spacing intuition and ending lag on stuff, as opposed to range, otherwise Ike would be top tier.

Again I find it really silly that you're bringing up that particular strategy, since the point is how are YOU going to set that up safely? You don't want to challenge Luigi's more damaging aerials that have virtually no ending lag. If you mess up the slightest you get Up-smashed out of shield. Seriously though, against anyone in general, unless their name is something like Ike or Ganondorf, I don't see how Diddy is consistently pulling this off against a competent player.

 

[Gnes]

Hmm we seem to be going around in circles. I guess ill say a few more things. Firstly...Our up smash does beat any aerial that doesnt have transcendent priority. Its simply because diddy's hurtbox changes in response to the move, leaving his hurtbox smaller and the up smashes hitbox on top of his hurtbox.(I think i explained that right lol). Basically, any move used to approach diddy from above that doesnt have special properties will be beat(like meta's dair). This is not a opinion, but a fact. If you don't believe me test it for yourself.

Secondly, i dont really understand why u believe diddy not being able to "shield pressure" luigi translates to "luigi never dying". Are you saying shield pressure is the only means to which diddy can create ways to kill, of course not, cuz that is silly.

If your outside of diddy's range, HE WILL NOT FAIR. I just said this. Why would a person use a laggy move if your outside of their range. He'll camp you, zone you, whatever means it takes for you to approach. If you want to talk about speed, diddy can just wall you with his Bair(his fastest aerial:4 frames i believe) until....well forever....thanks to luigis horrible traction. Diddys game in this matchup isn't meant to shield pressure you, but zone you with his superior range and punish your mistakes. Thats all.

Also, regarding crossovers through someones shield with a naner, your wrong. Watch matches of me, ADHD, AZ, heck honestly any diddy, it works. And there is no particular setup. "Diddy is by luigi, diddy crosses through his shield with naner" It has the same frame allocation as any other glide toss of diddy, which is fast. Maybe were thinking of two different things....

Ill probably edit this later.

 

[Player-1]

No, I would not B-air in this matchup unless it's for edgeguarding. It's much too laggy and doesn't hit below you well enough. When you D-air, you leave your options open to cancel into another action.

Luigi has more damaging combos, and his Jab combos into all sorts of dumb stuff that can potentially kill, while Diddy really can't pressure Luigi enough with Bananas to reliably set up any kills.

Shieldcamping is AMAZING against Diddy when you're Luigi because the point is HE CAN'T KILL YOU.

Diddy at any rate doesn't want to F-air much in this matchup because it's MAD punishable. He's probably going to trade hits with Luigi anyway. If you just D-air outside of his F-air range, you have the zoning advantage because he has fewer moves that he can throw out safely, while if he does whiff something, you can almost assuredly punish it with the Cyclone (spamming Cyclone from long distances is a bad idea in this matchup, but it's still a very good punishing tool)

It's not even that hard for Luigi to approach Diddy since you can just randomly D-air and if he's far away, he can't do anything to you. His Bananas get picked up by D-air, and then you can toss them back or do whatever, and he doesn't have any good ground moves or safe aerial rush tactics.

If you are seriously letting Diddy get away with something as silly as that, you're doing this matchup wrong.

Crossovers get killed by Luigi's Up-smash.

This post is crap, if any Luigi plays like this against a Diddy who has a clue about the matchup, they'll get *****...

But I agree with you it's 6-4 your favor.

 

[Player-1]

I'd appreciate if you didn't put responses within quotes since that is stupidly inconvenient for the person making a reply.

firstoff it doesn't matter that stuff is safe on block against Luigi because the point is you don't get to put much shield pressure on Luigi under normal circumstances. Not being pressured by Diddy = not ever dying. You can do 180% to Luigi and never kill him, while he takes his time knowing that he can do about 70% and kill you with an Up-angled F-smash after he lands a glidetoss

Up-smash doesn't beat Luigi's D-air or N-air. You underestimate its vertical range and the height of Luigi's SH. It also has virtually no ending lag, so if he starts it up a little early, he can just N-air or air dodge if you're going under him.

If you're outside Diddy's F-air range, he can't do anything that doesn't get punished by one of Luigi's MUCH less laggy aerials or Cyclone. Simple as that. Safety is more determined by the player's spacing intuition and ending lag on stuff, as opposed to range, otherwise Ike would be top tier.

Again I find it really silly that you're bringing up that particular strategy, since the point is how are YOU going to set that up safely? You don't want to challenge Luigi's more damaging aerials that have virtually no ending lag. If you mess up the slightest you get Up-smashed out of shield. Seriously though, against anyone in general, unless their name is something like Ike or Ganondorf, I don't see how Diddy is consistently pulling this off against a competent player.

First: shield camping is dumb, Diddy's bananas can shield poke...fairly early, but not too early, of course, you can angle your shield, but I doubt that EVERY single time we throw a banana that you'd do that, Diddy's dash attack shield pokes even earlier and you shield faces multiple hitboxes so it's harder. In this game your shield will actually DIMINISH.

Second: Usmash beats EVERY aeral you have.

 

[Pony]

edit: just realized that my question was already answered :x

yoshq, I liked those offstage cyclones you did.

 

[hippiedude92]

Luigi's jab outranges alot of Diddy's stuff.

Nair trades off with upsmash.

just sayin

 

[TreK]

Stop spamming about usmash, we can get naired out of it P-1 lol

And dair beat it last time I checked =/

 

[Gnes]

Luigi's jab outranges alot of Diddy's stuff.

Nair trades off with upsmash.

just sayin

If we wait too long to upsmash once your nairing...then yes. Our f-tilt outranges all of your ground moves.

D-tilt too.

 

[CR4SH]

INCOMING shameless copy/paste. Since I wrote extensively about this matchup in another thread. It's more matchup tips and notes than a breakdown, but I think its useful.

m crash, I'm a luigi main/diddy secondary.

First of all, an important note is that ALL of luigi's aerials autocancel. Also, all of luigi's aerials pick up bananas. The best way of picking up a banana in a landing state is luigi's nair. You can time it terribly and it picks up the nanner anyway.

As for elh's point that "dash attacking is better than slipping on a banana." I disagree. Dash attack, against a good player that knows the matchup, always gets you hit. Wait, caveat, if they're on or near the stage. In all circumstances where they're on or near the stage, you get hit. Tech rolling a banana back usually does not.

My favorite thing to do , is short hop double fair, or double fair to nair, spamming near diddy kong. Its very hard for diddy to fit a banana in the middle of this without getting it caught. Also, if you catch a peanut on mistake, or by necessity, get rid of it as soon as you can, luigi's glide toss isn't THAT good (good enough to make having a peanut a good thing, I mean). Once you have one or both bananas, try to put them in a place that makes it hard for the diddy to get to them. In other words, put yourself in between the diddy and his nanners. On big stages, in other words his counterpicks, a good way to do this is to leave them on the stage behind you. On small stages, put them in the air with uthrows.

Most diddy's are almost hard wired to get their bananas back, or to get in a position of banana control. All but the best or worst diddys feel very very vulnerable when they are out of control of their bananas and have no way of bringing out new ones. On the other hand, all but the very worst of diddy kongs are able to exploit you for throwing their bananas back to them.

When diddy does not have his bananas, you **** his moveset. ****. Move for move, diddy is luigi jr.. And you have the added benefit of being able to predict the fact that he wants to get back to his bananas. If he goes into the air, hurt him. If he tries to roll, hurt him. If he dash attacks, you can shield grab it (!!!). Note about that, throw him away from the bananas, not a dthrow for combos. If he goes for a dash grab, spot dodge shoryu **** him. If he goes for a flip, bair him. If he spams peanuts, powershield them (having a peanut in your hand pretty much ***** your options). Another note, sh fireball to landing fireball rinse repeat covers most options. Spam that for a reaction. Punish the reaction.

Tldr version
step 1: get the nanners
step 2: neutralize the nanners
step 3: **** diddy for wanting nanners

TLTLDR version


P.S. This **** did NOT work on AZ. This **** almost worked on sai90. This **** ***** the piss out of every other diddy i've played (most of whom are better than sai90, none of whom are better than alphazealot.). AZ is just too much better than me. Sai90 has a ridiculous playstyle and somehow does magical things in the luigi matchup (but I still win). Against a much better diddy (az) I just played regular, autoweeg, and did quite well, but still lost. If you run up against a diddy kong that can predict 3 moves in advance where you're going to land, and have a banana there, you lose, sorry.

All in all, I'd cal it 60 or 65 for luigi.


I just read something that requires a response.

Okay i should have been more specific. If diddy crosses over your shield via forward dribbling, u are in no form or fashion going to punish him for it. If u drop your shield u trip on the banana...if u stay in your shield he does whatever he wants...if u jump he hits u with a aerial. Completely safe and can lead into consistent kills.

JAB! Jab, bro! 2 frame jab that cancels into everything in the world! When the hell is diddy going to be so on top of luigi that he can get that accoplished without getting straight up KILLED? Not to mention that Jab to jab cancels on diddy's shield are basically entirely safe and lead to very easy shield pokes. If you're right there and you're not rolling away, GG.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

If we wait too long to upsmash once your nairing...then yes. Our f-tilt outranges all of your ground moves.

D-tilt too.

your underestimating luigi's priority. Its why Luigi's n-air goes through the up smash.

also, down smash works vs your f-tilt and down tilt. But when would Luigi ever be approaching vs. a diddy from the ground unless you can get up close to kill unless your just moving back (as in spacing lets say with fireballs or the cyclone. Diddy is better on the ground overall in terms of range, Luigi is better in the air.

 

[hippiedude92]

Wrong.

Jab1 without a DOUBT outranges dtilt and POSSIBLY FTILT, if it isn't ftilt, then oh well, it isn't completely viable compared to jab1's uses anyways lol.

inb4listingadvantagesofFtilt

 

[Player-1]

I'm 100% sure Usmash out prioritizes your nair, at least in the set up that gnes described.

 

[TreK]

It outprioritizes a falling nair, yup

But then you eat a nair between the 2nd and the 3rd hit

All in all, you take 14% instead of 4, deal 10%, and still die 70% earlier than him
Just not worth it lol

 

[CR4SH]

What about Dair? It has better priority.

 

[Player-1]

I'm 100% sure Usmash out prioritizes all of your aerials.

And you can Uair Luigi out of his nair and lower percents.

And I usually do a running smash against luigi so my 2nd hit has already had passed and they don't get an opportunity to nair.

 

[ScAtt77]

I just thought about this.... how does Luigi's Cyclone fair against Diddy's up smash?

 

[elheber]

First of all, Yosh, those ledgedrop Cyclones were brilliant. I'm gonna have to "Cyclone Drop" more often against characters who are susceptible to the cyclone when they recover.

Anyway, I have to agree with 90% of what crash said. Whether or not Dash Attacking is better than slipping on a banana, we can all agree that we should try to minimize both. I mean, if you're fighting Diddy you shouldn't be dashing around anyway.

If you're gonna play against Diddy, you should really get comfortable with bananas. Tips and advice on using and avoiding bananas = tips and advice on fighting Diddy himself (who's fighting style is most similar to Luigi's in all of Brawl IMHO).

I, myself, still need to work on my banana strategies. I just throw them up or down mostly. -_-

 

[holyv]

YAAAAAY

Luigi 60:40 Diddy kong

Why?
DOWN-B GIMPS!!!!
Luigi is an aerial monster, and diddy sucks on air because diddy's the master on ground game, but on air he's not that good.
Wigi down b get past bananas, that is diddy's principal stategy.

and i say 60:40, because diddy can rack up a lot of damage, and a stock depending, on a trip.

 

[Luigisama]

we got this covered already no need to put more info. k

 

[holyv]

then why are we even discussing this, update the luigi matchup thread and close this >.<

 

[Luigisama]

then why are we even discussing this, update the luigi matchup thread and close this >.<

idk why this topic hasn't been closed and yeah its been updated.

 

[holyv]

results?
50:50 or 65:45?