Pokkén Tournament Weavile's Wicked Wonderland - General Discussion/Social Thread

[IsmaR]

AKA already confirmed top tier before the game even launched/good enough for JWong to use. Anything not specific/that would be considered off topic elsewhere will find its home here. Just don't go too overboard/remember the rules still apply, and that Weavile is bae.

 

[The Slayer]

Why is every character I pick blindfolded is "top-tier" or "considered it? I do like Weavile's mixups though, but man do I need to work on range characters like Rosalina Gardevoir. Pretty much a free loss and "negative cheering."

 

[IsmaR]

I know what you mean. Weavile was my main the moment it was revealed. The fact that I love(d) its moveset was just a plus.

Currently my favorite thing to do is use supports that take forever to charge (Nintetails in specific), and just cancel Icicle Crash to boost meter/use it almost twice as often as "Fast" supports.

 

[The Slayer]

I was quite surprised not only with its moveset, but even shortcuts of performing them. That and still keeping depth in the game just completely reminds me of Smash. Also, that's a clever way of filling the boost meter. I wonder, which supports are you using so far? I just got started, so I don't have a ton of them yet.

 

[Aetheri]

Who cares if he's top tier or not...

Weavile is a frikking fun character regardless...

One thing I like to do is charge his Y attack and move around the arena, after releasing Y he chucks a line of snowballs...makes for some great spacing and mix-ups...

 

[IsmaR]

My go-to supports are Mismagius and Ninetails, though I only just unlocked the last tier of them (still no Latios/Yveltal at that).

Weavile really appreciates and stat boosts (Attack especially), but also benefits from any supports that interrupt the opponent. I find Ninetails to be the best of both worlds in that it keeps away rushdown/grapplers, and provides a buffer against zoners. Plus, both pop up the opponents, which can combo into Weavile's Sonic Slash.

 

[The Slayer]

Who cares if he's top tier or not...

Weavile is a frikking fun character regardless...

Right. Let's not put a reticle on him for a nerfbat shall we? Otherwise, it's gonna be a pretty empty board.

 

[Haze.]

Weavile has always been one of my favourite Pokemon so there was no contest when it came to deciding on who I wanted to play.

One of my early impressions is that CADC will be very important for Weavile to deal with certain match ups.

 

[GR8gamer]

As someone who does not have a lot of knowledge on Weavile, What makes them so good?

 

[IsmaR]

-Among the best, if not THE best movement speed in both Field and Duel phases, letting him do things like quickly run up and grab you at any time, and outrun projectiles/any homing attacks.
-Pretty good air mobility options having an instantaneous fastfall, as well as numerous mindgames in Icicle Crash (can stall by destroying it, drop it instantly with fastfall, shoot it to jump either direction and even be angled upward for a makeshift anti-air)
-Insane mix-ups with Agility, which can be canceled into off of any string and has two very good follow ups in Fury Swipes and Fake Out.
-Knock Off has really good range, and lowers the opponent's Synergy Gauge.
-Night Slash can be canceled just like CADC, and in combination with Agility is an excellent option select.
-Weavile's projectiles in Field phase are also fairly irksome to deal with. Ice traps give stage control, while ranged snowball can be held down to make Weavile start spinning, which moves just as fast (if not slightly more) than his running speed. Both can also be followed up with forward Y (Feint Attack? The sort of after-image looking move), and get increased numbers during Synergy burst (3 vs 5).
-Weavile's Burst Attack, Sonic Slash is an anti-air that is both relatively safe to throw out, and is very easy to convert into.

If you're looking specific examples in terms of gameplay, I'd recommend watching JWong vs Rip at the Early Access Tournament.

(starts at 3:05:46 if it fails to automatically start correctly)

 

[Life]

Surprising absolutely nobody, fast characters are both fun and incredibly effective, much like almost every other fighting game.

Still unlocking stuff, but when I have interesting things to say I'll let you know.

EDIT: Wow, it's really hard to tell shieldstun in this game. Field Phase Jump X looks suuuuper unsafe but the training mode dummy can't seem to punish it consistently.

Almost everything to do with block in this game is RPS, except that it's RPS informed by spacing. Some things can't be grabbed easily because of pushback or long range. Very rarely does it seem that something is 100% unsafe on block, is what I'm getting at. Aside from maybe some supers that are faster than the typical defensive options? Didn't test those.

Also explains why the Shadow Mewtwo fights were so much trouble for me (besides the stats LOL). When you have to RPS to win shield punishes, and the bots can presumably read your inputs...

 

[Darklink401]

What's CADC?

Also I'm loving Weavile, as he's one of my favorite Pokemon, it's exciting to play him in a fighting game X3

I've found that if in Duel Phase if you use up and X or Y (I forget which one, the anti-air slash), you can't do anything before landing, but if you hit your opponent with it, you can actually do the mid-air icicle before landing, which (if you're in the corner) you can do anti-air slash into icicle > shove it into your opponent as a combo.

 

[Haze.]

What's CADC?

Also I'm loving Weavile, as he's one of my favorite Pokemon, it's exciting to play him in a fighting game X3

I've found that if in Duel Phase if you use up and X or Y (I forget which one, the anti-air slash), you can't do anything before landing, but if you hit your opponent with it, you can actually do the mid-air icicle before landing, which (if you're in the corner) you can do anti-air slash into icicle > shove it into your opponent as a combo.

Counter Attack Dash Cancel.

 

[Darklink401]

Counter Attack Dash Cancel.

ooh that thing :D thanks

 

[LevinViolin]

What's CADC?

Also I'm loving Weavile, as he's one of my favorite Pokemon, it's exciting to play him in a fighting game X3

I've found that if in Duel Phase if you use up and X or Y (I forget which one, the anti-air slash), you can't do anything before landing, but if you hit your opponent with it, you can actually do the mid-air icicle before landing, which (if you're in the corner) you can do anti-air slash into icicle > shove it into your opponent as a combo.

CADC stands for counter attack dash cancel. (Booo ninja'd[I guess that's what I get for taking so long to reply]) It's basically the same as a Focus Cancel in Street Fighter. Perform it by starting a counter attack then pressing R and any direction simultaneously. You can go forward, back left or right in field phase, but in duel phase you can only go left or right. One of the tutorials has you perform it.
Since you don't take any damage while charging a counter attack (at least to my understanding) it's incredibly useful for eating projectiles while approaching in field phase.

As for the combo, I believe Weavile's final combo in the combo practice mode is really similar. The only difference is that after icicle crash you can land knock off.
Anybody else have any combos? The only one I've found myself is duel phase aerial X > up+A > charged A.

 

[Darklink401]

CADC stands for counter attack dash cancel. (Booo ninja'd[I guess that's what I get for taking so long to reply]) It's basically the same as a Focus Cancel in Street Fighter. Perform it by starting a counter attack then pressing R and any direction simultaneously. You can go forward, back left or right in field phase, but in duel phase you can only go left or right. One of the tutorials has you perform it.
Since you don't take any damage while charging a counter attack (at least to my understanding) it's incredibly useful for eating projectiles while approaching in field phase.

As for the combo, I believe Weavile's final combo in the combo practice mode is really similar. The only difference is that after icicle crash you can land knock off.
Anybody else have any combos? The only one I've found myself is duel phase aerial X > up+A > charged A.

I remember the tutorial just called it a cancel, right? XP That's why I was confused as to what the initials to that were haha. But thans!

And yeah someone told me that they teach ya that in the combo thing for Weavile. If that works on block, it can be useful for applying safe pressure since you can uppercut (or...upperslash) the shield, then icicle your way outta there, which also does some more shield damage, so either they stay in shield and can't punish, or go out of shield and risk getting hit with an icicle.

 

[Haze.]

CADC stands for counter attack dash cancel. (Booo ninja'd[I guess that's what I get for taking so long to reply]) It's basically the same as a Focus Cancel in Street Fighter. Perform it by starting a counter attack then pressing R and any direction simultaneously. You can go forward, back left or right in field phase, but in duel phase you can only go left or right. One of the tutorials has you perform it.
Since you don't take any damage while charging a counter attack (at least to my understanding) it's incredibly useful for eating projectiles while approaching in field phase.

As for the combo, I believe Weavile's final combo in the combo practice mode is really similar. The only difference is that after icicle crash you can land knock off.
Anybody else have any combos? The only one I've found myself is duel phase aerial X > up+A > charged A.

A decent anti air combo in Duel Phase is 2X into 5Y. I find myself punishing people a lot with it since a most players on ranked tend to just throw out moves.

In field phase, when you're in the air you can press Y to throw your projectile, it then combos into 5A.

These two options do more damage than the suggested combos in training. I haven't actually played around too much with combos, these are just some basic ones that I found.

 

[Life]

I think you can get a tiny bit more mileage out of XAAAAA than XXYYYYY, but I tested that in the context of landing divekick first, so could be partially a hit scaling thing. Combo damage scales really hard in this game :/

 

[Haze.]

I think you can get a tiny bit more mileage out of XAAAAA than XXYYYYY, but I tested that in the context of landing divekick first, so could be partially a hit scaling thing. Combo damage scales really hard in this game :/

tested and yeah you get 1 hp more damage with X, 5A.

here's another duel phase combo. 4Y into forward X into 5A. should do 156 damage and has been tested against a cpu that blocks on reaction.

 

[IsmaR]

X > Night Slash can be followed up by either Sonic Slash (damage scales, though) or low stance/crouching X.

YYYY can be cancelled into Agility > Fury Swipes (A > XXXX)

 

[Life]

Thoughts on supports? Through single player I've mostly been running Cubone/Diglett and Snivy/Lapras, all of which are there to put pressure on the opponent, which is especially helpful if you're trying to run their Synergy Burst timer down from relative safety, or if you're at range and need a way in against projectiles if it's not Snivy (not that Weavile should really have much trouble with that IMO, you're fast and a small target and have icicles and a fastfall and Agility and and and...).

Any others I should be considering? I don't have everything unlocked yet, and no access to my WiiU for a while, so...

 

[Haze.]

Thoughts on supports? Through single player I've mostly been running Cubone/Diglett and Snivy/Lapras, all of which are there to put pressure on the opponent, which is especially helpful if you're trying to run their Synergy Burst timer down from relative safety, or if you're at range and need a way in against projectiles if it's not Snivy (not that Weavile should really have much trouble with that IMO, you're fast and a small target and have icicles and a fastfall and Agility and and and...).

Any others I should be considering? I don't have everything unlocked yet, and no access to my WiiU for a while, so...

Most weavile I see online tend to run eevee and frogadier. from what I can tell I think it's mostly preference.

I think these are the support mons that can combo into burst. Frogadier, Emolga, Fennekin, Lapras, Cubone, Diglett, Mismagius, Ninetails, Rotom, Farfetch'd, Dragonite, Umbreon, Magneton, Quagsire, Latios and Yvetal

 

[Aetheri]

I've been digging Mismagius myself...The attack boost goes well with Weavile's speed and Mismagius adds additional pressure to the opponent can lead into some decent follow-ups...haven't used Ninetales that much though...

Eevee and Frogadier work as well but Mismagius can do what both of them can do...I haven't tried all of the supports yet as I am still unlocking them all...but so far that's the mon I like to use...

 

[IsmaR]

Mismagius and Ninetails were my default up until recently. I started experimenting with Farfetch'd (fantastic for comboing into numerous strings) and Electrode (somewhat predictable, but good as a get-off-me tool when you foresee an incoming poke). Weavile has the benefit of being able to independently build meter, meaning the speed of which the support builds up should almost never matter too much. Some of the Slow assists, like the (big) legendaries and powerful/niche assists like Quagsire/Magneton or Pachirisu/Magikarp.

 

[Kurodyne]

Who cares if he's top tier or not...

Weavile is a frikking fun character regardless...

One thing I like to do is charge his Y attack and move around the arena, after releasing Y he chucks a line of snowballs...makes for some great spacing and mix-ups...

...well you see...
...having a character be viable is good...
...a character that's viable has a chance at winning...
...winning is fun...
...so therefore...
...weavile is fun...
...so lots of people care...
...because people like fun...

Just because you don't care a character is or isn't top tier doesn't mean others don't.

 

[Life]

There aren't any characters in this game that strike me as unplayably bad, given my limited experience.

"Viable" is a badly-used word anyway. You can play any character you'd like in any fighting game, as long as you don't care about winning. Always specify what you're trying to do when you use that word.

And now, back to things that actually matter.

What are Weavile's options against aerial approaches? upA, backA, maybe forwardA, counterattack, downA, maybe even neutralA if they space deep, upX, and Icicles or X if you're already in the air? Am I missing any?

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

What should you do about a block spamming Sceptile? Since I struggle against people who block a lot. (Unfortunately I play offensively...)

Early thanks for the help!

 

[Kurodyne]

"Viable" is a badly-used word anyway. You can play any character you'd like in any fighting game, as long as you don't care about winning. Always specify what you're trying to do when you use that word.

When people say viable, they mean competitively viable.
When people talk competitively, they care about winning.

 

[Haze.]

What should you do about a block spamming Sceptile? Since I struggle against people who block a lot. (Unfortunately I play offensively...)

Early thanks for the help!

I mean the obvious response would be to use your grab. Try baiting their shield option by using Knock off and then cancelling into a grab, most people react to the initial knock off by shielding so it should be a free punish on block happy opponents. Just remember to mix it up.

 

[Aetheri]

What should you do about a block spamming Sceptile? Since I struggle against people who block a lot. (Unfortunately I play offensively...)

Early thanks for the help!

This is one reason I like Mismagius...it provides added sheild pressure which I can then run in and punish with a grab...

 

[Life]

re: block spam, the obvious answer is grab more, but you can also go into training mode and set the dummy to block and react with stuff so you can figure out what's safe to do versus what options out of block

When people say viable, they mean competitively viable.
When people talk competitively, they care about winning.

Against whom? To what level of success? Do you want to win your local? A regional? Make it out of pools at EVO? Win EVO? Get on top of the online ladder? Beat your annoyingly good kid brother?

 

[Kurodyne]

re: block spam, the obvious answer is grab more, but you can also go into training mode and set the dummy to block and react with stuff so you can figure out what's safe to do versus what options out of block



Against whom? To what level of success? Do you want to win your local? A regional? Make it out of pools at EVO? Win EVO? Get on top of the online ladder? Beat your annoyingly good kid brother?

You're being a smartass about it. Top level. Win EVO.

You can win locals with Melee Kirby, that doesn't make him viable.

 

[Darklink401]

You're being a smartass about it. Top level. Win EVO.

You can win locals with Melee Kirby, that doesn't make him viable.

Truth

Also I like Lapras and Snivy, for no particular reason. Wish you could mix-match them in any way so I can have possibly 3 ice pokemon (if there is another support Ice besides Lapras)

 

[Aetheri]

Early impressions tell me that Weavile is amoung the Top 3 in the game imo along side Machamp and Gengar possibly...but at the same time it is still way too early to discuss these things as people learn the match-ups...

Regardless I'm not using Weavile because of his viability...

 

[Guimartgon]

should a combo thread be created?

 

[Life]

I was going to create a combo thread later this week if nobody else got to it first. I only know one or two outside the training mode stuff though.

 

[IsmaR]

I can probably think of a few to contribute. Have spent more time practicing secondaries/getting match up knowledge as of late, though.

 

[Life]

So I got home a little earlier than expected, so here are my combo findings. Training mode sets skill points to 1 across the board BTW; there's a setting in the menu somewhere to let you change it.

Notation should be self-evident. If I'm not making myself understood, let me know. All tests were run against another Weavile; certain other combos might be available on larger characters, which I might test at a later point. Shrug.

This also doesn't include combos into burst (yet) or combos involving assists. When in doubt, mashing A is usually not an awful idea, though it doesn't confirm from some things.

For Field Phase, you should be aware that AAAAA does more damage than XXXX and enters Duel Phase, basically making it a higher damage version of the same function. sideY ice traps into Ax5 are ultimately a bit less damage than raw Ax5 due to scaling. JumpY projectile combos into things if you can land it; might be worth learning to aim it at someone caught in sideY. JumpY into backY is a combo for 83 damage and Phase Shift, which isn't too bad, but jumpY into all A hits is 112. JumpY into wait into forwardY combos for 70, making it both hard and minimally useful, although there may be situations where backY or Ax5 doesn't reach.

As for Duel Phase:

Confirms from X: The best confirm I have off X is XX YXforwardA, which deals 158 damage. XAx5 is a much less technical option which deals 154. Using YYYX instead of YX deals 155 and is a little easier; mashing Y gets 153, meaning it's generally inferior to XAx5. However, XAx5 is the only one of these combos that keeps your opponent in front of you, while the rest will send them behind you, so it may be a better option if you want to keep good stage positioning.

tl;dr for X: XX YXforwardA, unless you want to keep them in front of you, in which case use XAx5, which is also easier to execute and does almost as much damage.

Confirms from Y: Mashing Y alone does 108 damage. At no point in that sequence can you mash A to extend the combo, unless you think the opponent won't hold block. YX does not confirm. YYX forwardA deals 113; YYXAx5 connects and deals 131, making it significantly better than all previous options. YYYXAx5 does not confirm.

tl;dr for Y: Use YYXAx5. Don't touch the control stick.

Confirms from forwardX: forwardXforwardA does 108. forwardXAx5 does 130, making it superior. You're probably better off trying to confirm a Y in these situations, as forwardY has similar reach and identical combo properties AFAICT.

Confirms from downX: None. Opponent hits the ground before you can act.

Confirms from downY: None, although it can be used to condition them into shielding, whereupon you cancel into backX, cancel that with R, and go into the grab mixup.

Confirms from upX: downX confirms off this for 90 and a crossup. upX into mashing Y does 138. upX into YYYXforwardA also does 138; upX into YYYXAx5 does 160 and is likely to push them into a wall (it carries nearly all the way across Magikarp Festival's longer axis).

Confirms from upY: There's that one tutorial combo that goes upY into icicle into forwardA, but that only deals a measly 82.
I can't get upY into icicle jump forward into Y/X to work, but that would be really neat if it did. Maybe on a bigger character? :/ It's certainly scary looking, though. You get plenty of frame advantage doing it if you go for X, but not enough to reach them while still in hitstun.

Confirms from A: None that I know of. Mashing A raw is 122 damage.

Confirms from upA: Only mashing A, which deals 120. Can't really do much else. You can charge A for mixups if you think they won't hold block.

Confirms from forwardA: Nope. Although come to think of it, I wonder if some of these combos ending in forwardA could be extended with a cancel... doesn't look like it, though.

Confirms from backA: See confirms from X, since this is the second move that comes out when you hit XX.

Confirms from jumpX: Any X or Y combo, downX, downY, upY. Looks like it.

Confirms from jumpY: Y, but due to the multihit nature of jumpY, it's a bit unreliable. downX also works.

Confirms from jumpA: Ooh, the famous icicle. I can't get enough frame advantage to hit anything off this.

Can't find anything for throw, charge attack, or for after a burst. Plenty of things confirm into burst, though.

 

[Dinosaturn13]

I am loving Weavile too. His combos are good and he is fast. He also is great on long stages and his burst attack is a good anti air. A good combo is back A too poke combo. Overall I main him along with pika libre

 

[Aetheri]

Just a little contribution but Night Slash in Duel phase (maybe in Field phase as well but I haven't tested it) follows up into his Synergy Burst if you time right...

I'd recommend early on catching them with your Y combos, then use his Synergy Burst as a finish...