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Weak Glide Toss/Gyro Dash Diagnostics

CJTHeroofTime

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If you don't know what I'm talking about, check out t0mmy's video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87JXA4ftMrw&feature=related
(note, the method I describe here is different than the method he uses to perform it, but it's the same techique in that it is a soft glide toss)
This AT has come up often, but I feel nobody has really perfected it/implemented it effectively, mainly because it's so beeping hard to explain. Well, right here, right now, in this thread here, I will explain the easiest way to do it, as discovered by Mister Eric, as well as what each wrong result tells you about how to fix your timing.

First of all, some terminology I will be using:
Weak Throw/Strong Throw (WT/ST) - Weak Throw is what you do when you are holding the gyro and just hit A(no directional input). Strong Throw is when you hold a directional input and hit A. WT and ST have different trajectories, if you can't tell the difference between the two, try the WT and ST until you can tell the trajectories apart

Half Slide/Full Slide (HS/FS)- The distance ROB slides when performing a Glide Toss. I'm assuming you can tell the difference between the two, if not, check out the video I linked above and notice the two different slide distances. HS is about the length of a Shield Roll, FS is more or less double that length.

Button inputs: I'll say L-button for shield and A for basic attack. If you use an alternate control scheme, figure out the conversion on your own.

How to perform this AT:
From a standing position with gyro in hand, you will perform 3 actions in rapid succession:
1) You will flick the control stick either left or right. This will initiate a dash animation. They key term here is flick, as this AT is dependent on the control stick returning to the neutral position.
2) You will shield. This will cancel the dash animation into a roll.
3) You will hit the A-button. This will cancel the roll into a gyro toss.

What it should look like
If you perform everything with the proper timing, you will achieve a WT and a FS. The gyro will be close enough to ROB that you can actually catch it while sliding using the A button.

If it doesn't look like that, you timed something wrong.

Diagnostics: If you are doing it incorrectly, look up your result below, and you will find a description of what you are doing wrong and how to fix it.

You dash and stop dashing
You're hitting the shield button way too late. Try messing around with just dash and immediately cancel it into a roll by hitting the shield button. Once you can consistently cancel your initial dash into a shield, then work on adding the toss.

You roll
You're hitting the A-button way too late. Press it a little sooner after the roll.

You get a Strong Throw/Half Slide
A ST means you held the control stick right or left for too long. You need to flick it quicker so that it is in neutral position before you throw the gyro. W HS means that you hit the A button a little too late after the roll. In order to perform this correctly, you need to hit A on frame 1 of the roll (if I am not mistaken) so hit A sooner

You get a Strong Throw/Full Slide
The FS tells me that you pressed the A button the perfect amount of time after the roll. The Strong throw, however, says that you are holding the control stick to the right or left for too long. You need to flick it so it returns to neutral position!

You get a Weak Throw/Half Slide
The WT means that the control stick is getting to the neutral position in time, so its not your flick timing. The half slide means that you are hitting A too late in the roll. Hit A earlier!

You do a running throw
This could be one of two things. You are either hitting the L-button after A or hitting it at the same time as A. This means, you never cancel the dash into a roll, so when you hit A, you just do a running throw.


And that's all I got. If you have a question, ask away and I'll eventually answer.
 

CJTHeroofTime

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Yeah, I just felt like people weren't understanding it. I understood, so I went and made a list of everything that could go wrong, so instead of being like 'huh? eh, *** it' they'd be like, 'ooooooohhhhh' so we can start using this. I think its a very useful tech, the gyro forces sheild, and being so close behind it allows you to punish with a grab every time.
 
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http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=292704

Shameless plugUseful resource.

I might revamp it sometime in the future to fit in with Smash Lab standards... operative word being "might." I suffer from a sever case of Laziness Bouts.

Don't remember if I included frame data in there and I need to go to sleep but if not and if you guys want it I can supply it.
 

CJTHeroofTime

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Well, this really isn't buffering. This is abusing the fact that hitting shield in an initial dash animation allows us to roll with our control stick in neutral position. All the button presses are in real time, which is why its annoying to time.
 
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Well... not necessarily. I have to double check, but I don't think pressing shield in your initial dash causes a roll. I'm getting into technicalities here, but iirc most button inputs are either ignored or thrown into the buffer queue if made during the initial dash. If you dissect it frame by frame this is what happens, but the thing is that, in practice, your control stick is almost never in neutral position when in theory it should. It's like residual tilt. Although you've released the control stick, it still takes actual time for it to move back to neutral (duh) and you might be inputting things during this residual tilt because, in theory, you flicked it, you let go of it, it should be in neutral, right? Off the top of my head, two things residual tilt greatly impacts apart from weak glide tossing is instant grenade dropping and DeDeDe's buffered reverse chaingrab infinite.

For IGD, you basically dash, tap down, and then tap shield. It's nearly impossible to recreate in frame advance because of the strangeness and difficulty in tilting your analogue stick ever so little each frame to simulate residual tilt, and that's what makes it work. When you tap down, as the analogue stick is going back to neutral, shield is tapped. This is read by the game as tilting down while shielding, which causes a drop through. The drop through, however, behaves oddly in that it puts Snake above the platform so that it's essentially canceling itself out, allowing you to automatically grab the grenade (as apart from a shield drop through, airdodge is read, which lets you catch the grenade and is then autocanceled). You're basically cancelling a shield into a drop through on like the first frame of it coming out (or maybe even at the same time it's read, meaning ideally, the shield never comes out).

On the other hand, for DeDeDe's BRCG, the analogue stick really does need to return to neutral for the buffering to work right, since you're doing crazy **** like tapping back down back forward or some **** I don't even know. That's why it's so hard to do in practice, but perfectly recreatable in frame advance.

And so this is why I proposed buffering as an easier method for weak glide tossing. If you want to do it without buffering, you're in the same boat as the BRCG, where you need the analogue stick to return to neutral in a very short time frame, which can be hampered by stuff like stick wear and looseness, etc. I'm definitely not saying it's impossible, because it's really not, and I don't mean to "steal your thunder", but I just wanted to provide some input, and see if you could take that and apply it.
 

CJTHeroofTime

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Well... not necessarily. I have to double check, but I don't think pressing shield in your initial dash causes a roll.
It does.
I'm getting into technicalities here, but iirc most button inputs are either ignored or thrown into the buffer queue if made during the initial dash.
I don't think this applies to shielding during the first few frames of dash. If it were buffer based, then I could hit shield at any time during the window, but it would roll at the same exact frame (the first actionable frame) regardless. Since you can actually hit shield at different times and the roll will activate when you hit shield, I don't think this is a buffer.
Although you've released the control stick, it still takes actual time for it to move back to neutral (duh)
Yes, which is why it's a flick, you're going the bare minimum distance so that it returns to neutral ASAP
If you want to do it without buffering, you're in the same boat as the BRCG, where you need the analogue stick to return to neutral in a very short time frame
Yes. That's the whole purpose of using the dash-roll mechanics. And ordinary roll requires you to push the direction you want to roll. Idk if it is caused by the momentum of the initial dash, but the game mechanics do not allow a standing shield during these opening dash frames, so hitting shield defaults to a roll. The key point is that you are achieving a roll with just the shield button, not shield+Direction. If you flicked the stick, this gives enough time for it to return to neutral, allowing you to glide toss with a weak throw.
which can be hampered by stuff like stick wear and looseness, etc.
I have a good controller. get@me
I'm definitely not saying it's impossible, because it's really not,
Definitely not. I can do this on command about 50% of the time when warmed up, and this is coming from a guy who can't even consistently wavedash or l-cancel in melee.
and I don't mean to "steal your thunder"
Going in thread about A and posting about B =/= stealing my thunder
but I just wanted to provide some input, and see if you could take that and apply it.
Cool, I appreciate it, bt this thread isn't about buffering a glide toss. This is about performing a full slide, weak glide toss from a standing position. I made this thread because it's a great method that isn't hard to do, it's just difficult to explain (Mister Eric can agree with that) so I provided a guide listing each other possible result and explaining how to fix it.

edit: also, credited mister eric for the actual discovery, as it was his post that taught me how to do it. I wasn't trying to steal credit, it's just a) I didn't remember who it was who first mentioned it in the discussion, and b) this thread wasn't made to show off a new discovery so much as it was to make a complicated technique more accessible by providing a "this is what happened->this is what you're doing wrong" section. Sorry if you got the wrong impression.
 

Mister Eric

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Well... not necessarily. I have to double check, but I don't think pressing shield in your initial dash causes a roll.

Sure does. I think that was the big picture everyone was missing when I was trying to say it.

Oh and I'm not offended for you reposting it or anything (not saying I believe that you think that, but just in case)
I actually applaud you. Thank you<3
This is can be so useful if you ask me and shouldn't be ignored.
 

T0MMY

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Nice post.
To keep things from being confusing I refer to throwing other characters as a "Throw" and tossing items as a "Toss".
 

T0MMY

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Thanks to the new technique I can get the soft toss done so much better ([^^]
Definitely worth putting an hour of practice in.
 

ccst

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Then why do you care? Not that you contributed with anything either.
 

Zwarm

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Then why do you care? Not that you contributed with anything either.
Yeah but I didn't post asking people to explain to me what's already right in front of me.

On topic: I still can't do this. It's the one AT I really have trouble with. I haven't tried since this thread was put up, and the info seems to be easier than other ways of doing the same technique, so I'll definitely try this out.

:phone:
 

sneakytako

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I've been thinking about how to apply this AT properly, and I thought of some follow up mindgame:

The dash attack/grab - First you let him see that you can Weak Glide Toss (I'm calling it WGT) > dash attack from out of his range. Then you actually WGT > Dash attack into his shield so he recognizes he can shield, he won't shield grab you unless he's fast or has good imagination, or you have poor spacing. This is where it get's interesting: You follow up WGT with dash grab. This will beat shield, spotdodge (run past them and pivotgrab), and their own grab (gyro will knock them away, grab armor probably won't apply). He'll probably figure out on the 2nd or 3rd time that he needs to either jump or roll. Predict that he won't shield, regrab the item with jab and GT up if he jumps, GT back if he rolls behind, or forward if he rolls back (all of these should be done on reaction).

Ima practice.
 

-LzR-

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I also had trouble doing this for some reason. I guess it must be just that one does not simply learn this in an hour.
 

Mister Eric

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It's really not that hard, just takes muscle memory. Especially with this little shortcut. When I found out you could dash --> dodge roll, I was such a happy bot.
 

T0MMY

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After performing this more consistently in a tournament match I've realized it's not going to improve the metagame that much.
The basics are waaaaaaaaaaay more important (spacing, timing, reading, option selects, pressure, baiting, patience, control, flow... etc.)
Always good to know how to do everything though, but don't neglect the little things (like platform drop out of shield).
 
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