We need to get some things settled

[Pink Reaper]

Im gonna make this short.

We as the MBR havent been doing our job. We havent completed the next Tier List or even discussed it for quite some time now. We havent even come to proper terms as to how we make one. There's quite a bit of dissatisfaction from the Melee community with the way we do things so I think its about time we stepped it up.

First, I propose we re-evaluate the current stage list for both singles and doubles. We also need to come to an agreement on how we decide what stages are legal and why. A definitive reason will give us a way to give weight to our list. When someone asks why x stage is legal but y isnt we can say for certain the reason. I dont think we necessarily all have to agree on what stages fall into that reasoning(lord knows we wont) but we at least have to agree on the base level of what a Neutral and what a CP stage is and work from there.

Second, we need to come to an agreement on what we're doing with the tier list. As of the last thread we had a Viable/Non-Viable split but a large portion of us didnt vote and even after the vote was closed most expressed the need for further discussion. We also need to come to a consensus on what the tier list represents. Again like with the stages this will give our list more weight if when someone asks why x character is where they are we can give a concrete answer.

Thrid we need to finalize what we're doing with new members. The thread we had died off the second we added Swift and Axe and while both were definitely great additions it doesnt make sense to throw out all the other candidates simply because we already added a few. There was definitely some interest in at least a few other names on the list and I think we should seriously consider a few more members.

Fourth, we also need a purge. We have a lot of inactive members and while there's not necessarily a huge need to get rid of them theres also no reason to keep them in if they're not doing anything. Taj hasnt posted once since his addition during the reformat, and a few others havent really posted more than once or twice since their addition. I dont believe the current MBR members sticky to be current so I dont know who is and isnt still in but we should at least remove the dead weight. Im not suggesting a room banning, if they come back and really feel like they should be re-added later thats fine but for the time being we might as well cut them loose.

Fifth, ICG should be added to and made leader of the MBR

Wow that wasnt short at all. I suck at this.

 

[Luma]

dont we have some guys who "lead" the br or something? if so, this would be their job

 

[Skler]

I say we stick with a top, high, mid, low and bottom tier list.

Viable and non-viable would piss everyone off a lot.

The stage list is something I'd like to yell at everyone about debate.

 

[Tero.]

I say we stick with a top, high, mid, low and bottom tier list.

Viable and non-viable would piss everyone off a lot.

The stage list is something I'd like to yell at everyone about debate.

I love how people never read the OP.
The Tier List was never supposed to have only viable and non-viable.

 

[KishPrime]

I've always been a fan of splitting up tiers like:
Potential to Win National Tournaments
Potential to Top 5 National Tournaments
Potential to Top 16 National Tournaments
No potential

Frankly, there's little other meaning to a tier list than to judge potential tournament performance, so why not make it official? No one else has ever really liked that idea though.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I concur with just about everything Reaper said.

Prime: I think you need to consider a tier list in a much broader view. I was playing some SSFIV the other day and my friends were telling me which characters were good based off of the tier list. These same friends also are aware of the Smash tier lists. There are many casual players who will never in their life enter a tournament but want to know where the characters stack up against each other. Putting it simply in the "tournament" context may lead them astray and make them think the tier list isn't for them.

 

[KishPrime]

Tier lists are meaningless for casual players anyway, because they can't do most of the things that make them high/top tier. I play SF4, too, and I know the tier list is near-meaningless for me because I can't do all of the ridiculous combos nor do I play against anyone who goes all footsie on me every match.

If you want to do that, then make a separate tier list for casual players with only the easy things taken into account.

 

[AOB]

Don't kick me out! I just made a new thread! With a new idea!

 

[DoH]

I cannot wait for a debate on stages

 

[Pink Reaper]

dont we have some guys who "lead" the br or something? if so, this would be their job

The MBR leaders are essentially doormen, their only real purpose is to allow people in/out of the room. Anything that falls into the list of "Things the MBR is supposed to do" is all of our jobs.

Don't kick me out! I just made a new thread! With a new idea!

HE NEVER POSTS HERE AND HE'S OLD, GET RID OF HIM NOW BEFORE HE STEALS OUR SOCIAL SECURITY!

 

[D1]

I just had a heated debate with some smashers IRL about why certain stages are banned, their logic is if a certain stage is banned because it favors camping, why not banned certain neutrals that do exactly the same?

 

[KishPrime]

I'm so angry that AOB somehow stole the "old" label from me.

AOB will like the topic I'm posting soon.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Prime: Casual players are casual only in our perspective. Most of them try to believe that they can improve and eventually become that high level player, so they don't want to get stuck with a character that will end up sucking just in case they do improve. Also, the difference between casual play and tournament play doesn't skew the tier list that much, most of the stuff still remains true, Melee probably has the biggest skewing of any game from casual play to tournament play (GO LINK!).

 

[AOB]

AOB will like the topic I'm posting soon.

It's about bingo? Or shuffleboard?

 

[KishPrime]

Oh yeah, comments like that are how he did it.

Prime: Casual players are casual only in our perspective. Most of them try to believe that they can improve and eventually become that high level player, so they don't want to get stuck with a character that will end up sucking just in case they do improve. Also, the difference between casual play and tournament play doesn't skew the tier list that much, most of the stuff still remains true, Melee probably has the biggest skewing of any game from casual play to tournament play (GO LINK!).

My system would still outline that same distinction between good and bad characters, so I don't see how it fails in that regard. Sure, casual is relative. I was a casual Melee player compared to Azen and Mew2King, even in my prime.

Point is, all games have some severe tier-list distortions outside of high-level competitive play. I mean, you'd recommend Fox or Falco to a casual who's playing against his friend's Peach? By specifying tournament, you're still saying which characters are good and more accurately stating level of high-level potential. Easy, single-hit big damage characters are almost always better at lower levels of play in all games I've played, regardless of the fact that many can be bottom tier.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I suppose ultimately it's a trivial argument considering regardless of what the tiers are called, the characters would still appear in the same order.

I just remember my (casual) friends talking about "high" and "A" tier characters and was trying to picture him say "yet this character has the ability to place top 16 at a national so he is good".

 

[SwiftBass]

umm I like the idea of S A B C D E tier list like in street fighter. I think it will serve as a refreshing start to the new rankings. I like the fact that there is already a general consensus on the alphabetical rankings such as: SSF4 not having an S tier because no one char has been proven enough to THAT godly(in contrast to sf4 having sagat as S tier). Yeah may be just a changing of symbols but I do feel that it will kind of serve to refresh people on the idea.

I cannot wait for a debate on stages

This. Onett here I come

 

[Dogysamich]

Im gonna make this short.

We havent completed the next Tier List or even discussed it for quite some time now. We havent even come to proper terms as to how we make one. There's quite a bit of dissatisfaction from the Melee community with the way we do things so I think its about time we stepped it up.

While it hasnt ever been laid out and agreed upon, there's always been an understood rhyme and reason to how it's made around here.

They're made from tournament results.

Whether that's "proper" and "right" and all depends on who you ask and how you look at it (i guess), but really there's a reason why it has to be done like that here.

And that's because nobody can agree on ALL matchups, or really come close on a vast majority of them. So seeing as some people live and die by tier lists, that's really the ONLY way you can make one for this game.

Second, we need to come to an agreement on what we're doing with the tier list. As of the last thread we had a Viable/Non-Viable split but a large portion of us didnt vote and even after the vote was closed most expressed the need for further discussion. We also need to come to a consensus on what the tier list represents. Again like with the stages this will give our list more weight if when someone asks why x character is where they are we can give a concrete answer.

Yeah

Fourth, we also need a purge. We have a lot of inactive members and while there's not necessarily a huge need to get rid of them theres also no reason to keep them in if they're not doing anything.

Why? Like, so long as they keep up with "what's going on", what difference does it make if they post or not. Not everybody feels like getting into debates/arguments over a 9 year old game.

I've always been a fan of splitting up tiers like:
Potential to Win National Tournaments
Potential to Top 5 National Tournaments
Potential to Top 16 National Tournaments
No potential

Frankly, there's little other meaning to a tier list than to judge potential tournament performance, so why not make it official? No one else has ever really liked that idea though.

Here's the problem I have with doing that, and it's what I joke at all the time.

By doing a tierlist like that, you're not actually telling me, the player, which character is "better" than which. All you're REALLY telling me is what characters are being used the most.

It's like I said with pikachus in the other thread, if PikaChad and N64 get divine intervention from some Smash God and both win a string of nationals, but the way the tierlist is done around here, pikachu has to move up the tierlist.

The problem there is that pikachu himself is not that great of a character. It's a much easier example to see than jigglypuff. Pikachu gets chaingrabbed by a large majority of the game and falls victim to a wide array of "bS" that others can do. It just so happens that PikaChad and N64 are good at dealing with it.

Why is it not an argument of "the character is that good cause they can get around it?" If that were the case, then there should be more pikas because alot of people shouldn't have problems getting chaingrabbed to death or many of the other huge problems pika has.

That's my beef I will FOREVER have with making a tierlist that way.

Prime: I think you need to consider a tier list in a much broader view. I was playing some SSFIV the other day and my friends were telling me which characters were good based off of the tier list. These same friends also are aware of the Smash tier lists. There are many casual players who will never in their life enter a tournament but want to know where the characters stack up against each other. Putting it simply in the "tournament" context may lead them astray and make them think the tier list isn't for them.

Tier lists are meaningless for casual players anyway, because they can't do most of the things that make them high/top tier. I play SF4, too, and I know the tier list is near-meaningless for me because I can't do all of the ridiculous combos nor do I play against anyone who goes all footsie on me every match.

If you want to do that, then make a separate tier list for casual players with only the easy things taken into account.

Well, if a tierlist is "meaningless to a casual player" (which, so long as said player is LITERALLY casual, it is wrong), then it really doesn't matter HOW you make the tierlist.

If anything, it'd matter MORE which character is better THAN which character is more likely to win a tourney. Why? Because sure, you might not be able to do the in depth stuff to make a character better, but more-often-than-not the character's existance alone makes them better than others.

Case and point, Doc compared to Zelda (trying not to go with obvious extremes). To the casual player, it makes a huge difference that doc has stuff like a "useable" projectile, is small, has alot of moves with some degree of knockback, and has alot of moves that kill compared to zelda, who's main saving grace is relatively difficult to hit somebody with, is big, so on and so forth. If the player is really casual, it doesn't matter if Doc's win regionals and local tournaments, they don't go to tournaments. They just play against people to play.

(sidenote:

@Kish: If you really want to see the difference between playing good to bad characters in SF4 (or Super, whatever you play), play ryu and then play sakura, or just play balrog. Ryu and Balrog's natural character make them alot better than a wide majority of the cast (results kind of vary in Super since Ryu got some solid nerfs)

Prime: Casual players are casual only in our perspective. Most of them try to believe that they can improve and eventually become that high level player, so they don't want to get stuck with a character that will end up sucking just in case they do improve. Also, the difference between casual play and tournament play doesn't skew the tier list that much, most of the stuff still remains true,

Looking at that quote alone, why can't a casual player just want to get better at a game he likes (as compared to a tournament player who wants to get better to win).

Melee probably has the biggest skewing of any game from casual play to tournament play (GO LINK!).

quoted (and fixed)
for
truth.

 

[KishPrime]

I'm sorry, I can't really follow your post. Old man syndrome kicking in. Yes, tier lists give a general idea that can often be correct for the casual player, but they are often just as correct by random chance. Gouken might be really good against my friends because they don't know how to get around a fireball spam, but that's not why he's good on the tierlist.

And I don't care if each tier gets a easier-to-state label ABCD or if characters are ordered within the 4 tiers to show "better than (which is also a misnomer since counter-character matchups largely prevent a straight ordering, hence the purpose of tier groupings to begin with)." The argument is pointless for me because I just don't care that much about it to argue over it. It's my preference, but it's like a 51:49 split. I just don't get that worked up over 2%.

 

[Pink Reaper]

While it hasnt ever been laid out and agreed upon, there's always been an understood rhyme and reason to how it's made around here.

They're made from tournament results.

Whether that's "proper" and "right" and all depends on who you ask and how you look at it (i guess), but really there's a reason why it has to be done like that here.

And that's because nobody can agree on ALL matchups, or really come close on a vast majority of them. So seeing as some people live and die by tier lists, that's really the ONLY way you can make one for this game.

Well know, that's the thing. Our tier lists ARENT made from tournament results. They're made via votes per member each one with a different set of ideals on what a tier list SHOULD be. Im saying we as a group need to come to an agreement on what that tier list should be, how we should consider characters and proceed from there.

Viable/Non Viable is actually a good base. It gives us all a starting point and it allows us to debate at least the most fundamental parts of characters, that being whether or not they are in fact viable for a tournament or not.

If we dont at least have some kind of solid base for the things we do then they hold no merit whatsoever. Keep in mind we actually voted Poke Floats and Mute City off the CP list because the majority back here considered them too gay. There was no actual basis for which we defined CP stages, it was just "Too gay". So how do we go about responding to the community when it asks why certain stages are or arent allowed? More so how can we properly say the current stage list is in fact the best for a competitive environment when we havent even come to an agreement on what the Neutral/CP list should represent?

 

[Skler]

I do honestly think Fox is unbeatable on Floats given a gay enough player. Running laser spam > any other strategy by far on that stage. You either approach recklessly or give him enough time to run. Not to mention there's a bunch of ways he can just get around your approach when all those pokemon are floating around.

Also Seel. God I hate that stupid glitch.

We should make a thread for the stages. I love talking about them.

Love it.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

I would like to create a "program" for the MBR with a set of things to get accomplished in the near future. I will be going to APEX this weekend, so I'll do my best to start a thread to that end next week. In the meantime, if anyone, or other MBR leaders, have opinions on this, post here.

P.S. CAN ANYONE HOUSE ME FOR APEX HOLY SHIT I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR LIKE 10 DAYS AND EVERYONE IS FULL OR SMELLY BRAWL PLAYERS. I WILL GIVE YOU MONEY.

 

[Skler]

P.S. CAN ANYONE HOUSE ME FOR APEX HOLY SHIT I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR LIKE 10 DAYS AND EVERYONE IS FULL OR SMELLY BRAWL PLAYERS. I WILL GIVE YOU MONEY.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who finds that Brawl people smell quite a bit worse than melee players. Neither of us smell great, mind you, but something about Metaknight makes people not want to bathe or put deodorant on at all.

I'm serious, there's a noticeably different odor with some of those folks.

 

[unknown522]

don't worry. We're on this

 

[Marc]

I think the fact is that many people don't really want to do anything anymore, or at least require proactive leadership to get anything done. I lost interest in this room rapidly because even the tier list project couldn't gather a satisfactory amount of people, let alone be completed. If we can't do even that, we shouldn't dare to consider ruleset revamps (although those are unnecessary to begin with considering Melee's age, IMO).

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Why don't we make a thread and see how many members are actually interested in getting something done back here, and if it isn't enough, look back on some of the new-member candidates and see if we need to add anyone more to increase the interest level.

 

[AlphaZealot]

If we dont at least have some kind of solid base for the things we do then they hold no merit whatsoever. Keep in mind we actually voted Poke Floats and Mute City off the CP list because the majority back here considered them too gay. There was no actual basis for which we defined CP stages, it was just "Too gay". So how do we go about responding to the community when it asks why certain stages are or arent allowed? More so how can we properly say the current stage list is in fact the best for a competitive environment when we havent even come to an agreement on what the Neutral/CP list should represent?

Is there a link to the thread that had these votes? For some reason I remember the process not being anywhere near that formal.

 

[KishPrime]

This is why it was better when we didn't vote on stages, and just had open discussion and debate and let TOs decide. There are always going to be people that dislike certain stages. That said, Fox is extremely good on Floats, and I'm not sure too many characters can do much against him there.

 

[Pink Reaper]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=251600

 

[AlphaZealot]

Reaper: I think you just illustrated my point: 11/18 people who wanted counter pick stages want Mute City in that category. There was never a vote on individual stages, nor was there a final tally on those individual stages. Unless I guess you can read "no CP stages at all" as votes against those stages (making the total 11/25, but then you would have to automatically add 7 votes against just about every stage, I would wonder how many actually would reach a 50% majority, without a final tally it is hard to know). That poll was at best unclear (for example, one person even noted that, if the majority was in favor of CP stages, then he was okay with 2 more stages being added to the list, I wonder if anyone else would have added in stages after it was decided to include CP stages?). What should have at least been a two step process was only one step.

 

[Deleted member]

admittedly the progression was informal in nature. it's okay, if we really want to tackle this again we can do it differently this time around.

I've been on and off lately but I'll participate in whatever projects come up. Sorry for disappearing.

 

[SleepyK]

Kishprime > AOB imo

Sorry about only posting a few times back here. A lot of the time the points I was considering making are already made in a more eloquent fashion than I could muster.

 

[AOB]

Kishprime > AOB imo

That may very well be true, but it was kind of out of nowhere, wasn't it?

 

[KishPrime]

It was indeed. Hopefully he meant I look/sound older, especially now that I have my history topic.

All I can say is that for facial hair, AOB vs KishPrime is a bloodbath.

 

[Alex Strife]

any updates on this?

 

[KishPrime]

Pretty sure AOB is still beating me on the facial hair front, even if he shaved it off entirely.

 

[AOB]

The last time I was clean-shaven might have been in 2004 or so. And since I look like a stupid little kid without my beard, I don't plan on ever going smooth-faced again.

 

[Skler]

I submit we should all post pictures of our beards.

 

[Tero.]

So Hyuga/unknown/Cactuar/Umbreon: How about we add the new members and then get the tier list voting going again?

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Yep, that's the plan. I'm gonna PM the people to submit a join request tomorrow. Someone else will have to do the admissions after Wednesday though as I'll be out.