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We <3 Magus420 (plus DS tech guide) 12/17 Pivot guide update


Smash Lord
Jun 5, 2007
Slowly starting to enjoy my mothertongue again. :)
Alright, so since we all love Magus, I decided to look through his posts and take out some of the really interesting/helpful ones and get them together into this one thread dedicated to our love of our frame data hero. Here it is, roughly categorized into 5 major categories. However, keep in mind that most of these are somewhat intertwined, so you will find teching information in DI posts and vice versa.

DI, ASDI, SDI, CC, etc.

A Post on ASDI/SDI
More DI stuff
Even More
Even More
Even More
Even More
Interesting information about DI
Double-Stick DI
Crouch Cancel and how it works


A Post on Double-Stick Teching
More stuff about teching
Even more stuff about teching


Falcon's battlefield auto sweetspot
Apparently, Fox can do it as well
Epic Ganon combo

Frame Data and Move Properties

A Post about how Auto-Canceling works and some frame data for Ganon's aerials
Just Basic info about priority
Stuff about powershields
Fair'ing with Sheik/Doc/most characters does NOT help recovery distance
Peach chaingrab %'s and detailed information
Jump startup frames
Jab reset (thunder’s combo) %'s etc.
How "stale" moves in Melee works
Dashing and grabbing at the exact same time
Powershield information
More PS info
Detailed Techs and Getups frames
Throws frame data

Tips & Tricks

Magus on pivoting
Another pivoting post
And another one
Teching after getting hit during an l-cancel
Sheik ***** Falcon
Really hard
Really really hard
Wavedash pivot edgehog
falcon nair combo on floaties
Shield DI
Chasing tech rolls

OK, so I know right now this is just a very limited compilation to a few of Magus' posts, but I WILL UPDATE THIS. My hope is to compile this into a post-Doraki guide on some of the more complex aspects of of DI and teching with quotes from Magus and source links in the appropriate places. Also remember that searching a users posts from his profile only turns up the last 500 posts, so anything good that is older than those last 500 posts I did not get. I may include those in future updates.

Yes, this is a mess right now. Yes, it will get better. I hope you enjoy the unfinished version at least somewhat.

Since I wanted to kind of turn this into a guide over time, I'll start with something easy: I'll just translate a previous guide of mine about Double Stick Techs into English. I originally posted it in the German Boards in the third post of this thread after reading this and the posts following. Since this is really more of a translation of German into English rather than an originally English text, there might be some unusual/harsh wording in places where I didn't translate as well. I apologize for these inconveniences.

Double Stick Techs

How To: The Button Inputs

As you can probably guess from the name, Double Stick Techs (from here on referred to as simply DS Techs) require the use of both the Control Stick as well as the C-Stick. The principle is the same as for DS DI: You use the C-Stick to ASDI in one direction and the Control Stick to DI in a different one.

What you want to achieve to even make it possible to tech the hit is that you slide along the floor, rather than flying through the air. To do this, you need to first ASDI down. This is done by holding the C-Stick down. Second of all, you want to alter the original trajectory as much as possible from the original (flying into the air to die) to what you need (hugging the ground). That is why you have to DI perpendicular to the original flight trajectory of the move you are about to get hit by. And since there are two perpendicular ways you could DI and you wanna hit the floor, you have to DI perpendicular and down. A possible example is Marth's fsmash. It hits you at a ~45° angle up. What you want to do with the control stick now is move it into the groove on the control stick exactly between "to the side" (depending on what side you're facing) and down.

Teching deserves its own paragraph. Since you can't press L/R to tech during hitlag (with a few exceptions which I won't get into here, just read Doraki's guide), you have to press L/R before the hit. However, since teching only has a 20 frame window, you need to make sure it is as late as possible before the actual hit. This is simply tricky timing, and requires a good deal of practice to be able to do consistently. If you fail the tech, you will simply slide along the floor with a ton of momentum.

In summary: C-Stick down, Control Stick perpendicular (towards the ground), tech before the hit.

Where and when: Applicability

Some of you are probably thinking: "That's all fine and good, but what use does it have in a real match?" The key to being able to use this technique is knowing for certain you are gonna get hit. Missed rests and shieldbreaks are the obvious situations, but there are other possible ones as well, if you have practiced the inputs well enough. Sheik often lags enough that a tipper fsmash is a near certain punishment. A baited (and subsequently missed) grapple from the Links or Samus is also a possible situation. Maybe even after a missed Falcon/Warlock Punch. The possibilities are there, if you're good enough.

Special Circumstances

There are several factors that can affect the usefulness of Double Stick Techs. Here are the most important ones:

*Weight* Apparently, heavier characters can DS tech at highter percents than lighter ones, due to the fact that weight reduces knockback speed.

*Recovery* Since you retain a lot of momentum from the hit, you are sent off the stage very quickly. You need to recover well to be able to make it back. If you do not, you may die despite a successful tech, and that would be a shame.

*Traction* Traction is very important for double stick techs because the lower your traction is, the farther and faster you fly off the stage after the tech. Luigi is very bad at DS techs because of his ridiculously low traction.

*Fall speed* The higher your fall speed, the higher the percents at which you are still able to double stick tech.

*Tech roll* A tech roll agains towards the stage can greatly reduce your momentum from the hit and allow you to survive.

*Hitlag- really important* One factor very important for DS techs is how the hurtboxes of your character deform after a 10 frames of hitlag or more. For most character, their hurtboxes get lifted off the floor, which completely prevents you from being able to double stick tech. Common attacks with 10 frames of hitlag are electro attacks, which cause 50% more hitlag for the victim. Here is a list of characters that get ***** by these attacks as their hurtboxes are lifted off the ground after 10 frames of hitlag. Compiled by Magus.

"Bowser .......... YES
Captain Falcon .. YES
Donkey Kong ..... NO
Dr Mario ........ YES
Falco ........... YES
Fox ............. YES
Game & Watch .... NO
Ganondorf ....... YES
Ice Climbers .... YES (small)
Jigglypuff ...... NO
Kirby ........... NO
Link ............ YES
Luigi ........... YES
Mario ........... YES
Marth ........... YES
Mewtwo .......... YES (barely)
Ness ............ YES
Peach ........... YES
Pichu ........... YES (small)
Pikachu ......... YES (small)
Roy ............. YES
Samus ........... YES
Sheik ........... YES
Yoshi ........... YES
Young Link ...... YES
Zelda ........... YES

-DK, G&W, Jiggs, & Kirby have no reduced ability to tech high hitlag attacks.

-Mewtwo has a slightly lowered ability.

-ICs, Pikachu, & Pichu may be able to but it will be significantly worse.

-Everyone else probably won't be able to DS tech high hitlag attacks at any decent percent if at all.

I also wasn't correct in what I said back then about weight. It actually seems to follow weight a lot more than fall speed (fall speed acceleration is what matters in this case). I imagine it's because the reduced launch speed has more of an effect at that point in time than fallspeed accel.

Also, a neat thing against Peach's D-Smash (because it sends backwards) is that if you DS tech and release the buttons before your techroll ends, you'll enter the teeter animation and it will prevent you from sliding off. If you walk/crouch/shield/etc you'll slip off though if you still have momentum."

^Unchanged phrasing exactly from Magus.
First of all, bump for great justice. Second of all, Magus' posts on pivoting combined.

Pivoting Basics/Empty Pivots

The very first thing you should learn when you attempt to master pivoting is the empty pivot. That in itself is very very useful because it gives you all kinds of spacing option and basically leads right up to pivoting almost every other move. If you can do this, the majority of moves are going to be a breeze to pivot. In theory, the empty pivot is very easy to execute. You dash one way, then flick your Control Stick in the opposite direction. The dash is simple (I hope). For the flick, make sure that you only move the control stick far enough for your character to turn around, and then release the stick. This part is easier if your Control Stick is still "tight" and moves back to the neutral position very quickly. So basically:

1. Dash
2. Flick (opposite direction) & release stick

Pivoting Different Moves

I like to put moves in three different categories for pivoting. The first group is moves that are easy to pivot. For these you pretty much just do your standard empty pivot, and press the right button. Basically, this is jumps, grabs, jabs, and all smashes if you do them with the C-Stick. The second group is tilts. These are hard to do because if you used the above method, you just let go of your Stick so it could return to the neutral position. If you're going to tilt, you now have to quickly grab the Control Stick again and move it in the direction you desire and press A. Most of the time, this is inconveniently slow. The workarounds will be discussed later. The last group is B Moves, which, for reasons I am not aware of, cannot be pivoted using the "flick" method. This isn't much of a problem for forward or up B moves, as you can simply JC the up B and you can do forward B's at any time during the dash anyway. [You can actually pivot all B moves except neutral B moves. I'm terribly sorry.] However, it does mean you cannot pivot down or neutral B moves. This might not be a problem for some, but I could envision plenty of potential for pivoted shieldbreakers, needles, shines and inhales that remains unrealized.

1. Easy moves
2. Tilts
3. B Moves

First Group: The Easy Ones

This is really easy. Here's the deal: you pivot. And then you press your button. Pretty much as soon as you release the control stick. It's fast, it's easy, it's very effective. Pivot jabs are good for shield pressure. Pivot grabs are essential for Fastliketree grabs and other shenanigans. Pivoting jumps allows you to pivot shffl/fhffl aerials or even wavedashs, if you're good, although this is pretty hard. Pivoting smashes is obvious: you run away, then hit them hard, or smash out of your dash dance to suprise your opponent. Run forward, pivot back and smash in the direction you were running to do smashes out of your dash. Of course, then there's just the general applicability of spacing any of these moves more precisely using pivoting. The possibilites are pretty much endless.

1. "Empty" ( I mean, you're about to fill it) pivot
2. Press a button (Z, A, X/Y, L/R, C-Stick)

Second Group: Tilts

Tilts have a good deal more potential than the easier moves because they're normally faster, weaker versions of smashes, with good range and low lag. This makes them perfect spacing tools when combined with pivoting. HugS uses pivot ftilts to a good degree as far as I know. However, unless you want your pivoted tilts to be slow as hell (as outlined above), they're pretty **** hard to do. Magus has some nifty tricks on how to actually do this.

1. The first method is to simply not flick the stick. Instead, you slowly move it across the center to the other side. There's several things you also need to be aware of. First of all, don't move it across all the way to the other side. Secondly, you no longer press A when the control stick is at the center. When the control stick is about at 3/4 of the way to the side is when you should press A. You move the control stick to the other side, and when it's about at 3/4 you release it and press A at almost the same time. You actually want to delay the A press a bit so it occurs after the control stick starts moving back to neutral. The timing can be very tricky, so be patient when practicing this. It's also kind of hard to explain; if you feel like you're getting nowhere, vary your timing a little. The problem may even lie with the controller itself.

1. Dash
2. Slowly move the control stick across to 3/4
3. Release then press A at (almost) the same time.

Also note that doing this will result in a forward tilt. To do a d/utilt, you have to pretty much just roll the control stick in that direction while doing the pivot. Be careful with utilts though, as moving the control stick too far will result in a jump. Magus really puts it better than I do, so just read his post.

2. The other method is to flick the Control Stick for the first dash, before you pivot. You let the Control Stick go to the neutral position and from there you the stick to the other side (opposite of the one you dashed to) and press A when you're most of the way there. If you do it right there is no way to f-smash, the only way you can mess up is to dash attack. This way, you only have to worry about the timing of A, at least once you have the speed at which you have to move the stick down. As far as I know, this method can also be manipulated for d/utilts by moving the control stick up/down while moving it forward for the pivot.

1. Flick a dash in a direction
2. Control Stick moves to neutral
3. Move at moderate speed in opposite direction
4. Press A when you're most of the way there

Third Group: B Moves

I already covered most of this in the "Pivoting different moves" section, so there isn't much to write here. Basically, if you want to pivot neutral/down B Moves, you have to do pivoting the DA Dash way, which is essentially timing the move on the exact frame that your character is standing from the dash. I can only do this with forward smashes and have failed with every other move. It's terribly hard, and in my opinion not worth the effort when you could be learning useful stuff. You can also sometimes circumvent the problem of not being able to pivot n/d b moves by jumping first. Just realize that this gives you anywhere from 4-8 frames of extra startup time, as well as possibly leaving you open more. It's just a possibility.

Magus informed me that it is in fact possible to pivot down b moves. My fail. I am also wrong about pivoting using DA dashing. No matter how you pivot, you cannot pivot neutral b moves.


As for applicability, you'll have to find most of that out yourself. I covered some of it, but again, the possibilities are endless. Be creative!


Smash Master
Apr 12, 2008
Göteborg, Sweden
Seriously, now finding all of this info will become so much easier. This HAS to go into the Official Everything Thread.
Mad props to Magus and you for compiling this. :)

btw, i think the jab reset %'s are only for sheik's jab in case you didn't know. not 100% sure here i could be wrong... but I know the % are different for different jabs, and thats in the sheik forums


crystal skies
Jan 20, 2007
This thread needs to be sticky. Possibly one of the most helpful threads in the melee discussion. Magus is too good =3


Smash Lord
Feb 21, 2008
Seattle, WA
Definitely needs to be stickied or added to the everything thread. I think this should get its own sticky, though. Magus IS amazing, after all.


Banned (62 points)
Jul 11, 2005
Edmonds, Washington
i just threw this into the official everything topic and gave credit to Witchking_of_Angmar

i'll pretty it up later - i didn't realize just HOW MUCH was stickied when i stuck this lol


Hostile Takeover
Jul 7, 2008
Newburgh, NY
This thread depresses me...

...because it makes me realize I'll never be nearly as good as Magus.

Amazing info.<3


TB12 TB12 TB12
Jan 30, 2007
Sickboi in the 401
I honestly don't know what to merge and combine, they're all the most random threads... but I feel the need to keep them up there -_-.


Smash Journeyman
Jul 17, 2008
i'm no mod, but you could probably merge the two rule threads and put the action replay discussion into the official everything (since there isn't that much going on in it) and maybe even put AlphaZealot's AT thread in the official everything...
just my humble opinion.
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