Was Pit changed too much?

[Saikyoshi]

I've never liked Pit:M. He plays nothing like Pit:Brawl, and I don't see any clear goal or canon basis in his moves.

tl;dr: To me, he's not even Pit anymore.

This is just my opinion, but thoughts?

 

[Sqa$]

I actually like P:M Pit, but that's because he fits my style of gameplay. I can definitely agree that he doesn't play like Brawl Pit because of how gliding works with him and the speed of his aerials and whatnot. Especially side B, which was a change I was personally cool with.

The way to describe Pit in P:M is very much like Jigglypuff with the way he relies on spacing out his opponents with his air game, but also can be the biggest pest ever with his arrows if the opponent gets popped up. I also always like myself an Up-B kill move, because I think that's just the coolest reach if it works. I also like that his only reflector is is Down B now and that it can't be held out forever because it takes more placement and strategy to be useful.

Lastly, his nerfed recovery makes me very verrry happy because he could recover from anything ever. While he can still recover from a lot of things, his Up-B doesn't span the entirety of whatever he needs it to.

Basically, I like the new Pit because he's more versatile and make more sense to me.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

PM pit is actually a character. Brawl pit was meh at best.

 

[Saikyoshi]

He still doesn't feel like Pit to me, though. More like someone in a Pit costume.

It's the same problem I have with Lucario:M and Falco:M; it sacrifices the character's own characteristics for competitive viability.

I would have personally preferred tweaking how his moves work, like most of the other characters, rather than giving him a complete moveset overhaul.

 

[Sqa$]

I can see where you're coming from, but if you think about the lot of it, Pit's moveset is actually close to the same, except what I mentioned with his special moves. His other moves are the same animations, except for the fact that they changed the nature of the hitboxes, such as making the up air a single hit rather than multi hit and adding a stronger hitbox to the finale of the n-air.

Lucario in Project M feels more like how I expected Lucario to work when I first saw him. He's incredibly fast and can maneuver around his opponents like no tomorrow. He's very fluid if you know how to play him, and I enjoy his new down B. Also his cancel moves are really cool and make him super fast like Lucarios truly are.

Falco, however, he's literally his Melee self with Brawl animations. I think he works just fine. Granted, I favor the pace of Melee than Brawl, but I think he didn't change all that much at all. So with his thing, I'm not positive I agree, but that's my opinion.

 

[ECHOnce]

He still doesn't feel like Pit to me, though. More like someone in a Pit costume.

It's the same problem I have with Lucario:M and Falco:M; it sacrifices the character's own characteristics for competitive viability.

I would have personally preferred tweaking how his moves work, like most of the other characters, rather than giving him a complete moveset overhaul.

That's exactly what they did; they just tweaked their moves, just more drastically and universally across their moveset than with other characters. True, their playstyle is completely changed, but their most 'effective' playstyle often revolved around camping near the ledge and whatnot in Brawl (at least for Pit), which wouldn't be nearly as effective with Melee physics. PM Pit simply wouldn't be viable if he was kept so similar to Brawl Pit. Lucario too; his moveset was just far too slow for its relatively short range. It just would have worked against them if they were kept similarly to Brawl.

Also, Falco was changed back to his Melee self because Falco is way more popular as a character/choice of main in the Melee community than he is in the Brawl community. He just plays way more effectively that way, so they played to Falco's most efficient version and popularity for that change.

 

[Saikyoshi]

That's exactly what they did; they just tweaked their moves, just more drastically and universally across their moveset than with other characters. True, their playstyle is completely changed, but their most 'effective' playstyle often revolved around camping near the ledge and whatnot in Brawl (at least for Pit), which wouldn't be nearly as effective with Melee physics. PM Pit simply wouldn't be viable if he was kept so similar to Brawl Pit. Lucario too; his moveset was just far too slow for its relatively short range. It just would have worked against them if they were kept similarly to Brawl.

Also, Falco was changed back to his Melee self because Falco is way more popular as a character/choice of main in the Melee community than he is in the Brawl community. He just plays way more effectively that way, so they played to Falco's most efficient version and popularity for that change.

Well, call me a stickler for aesthetics, because I really am, but to me, Pit:M is just confusing, Lucario:M's movements are way too over-the-top for his stoic, tai-chi like style, and Falco:M is a glorified alternate costume for Fox.

I understand the mechanics , but mechanics aren't the only part of a character.

 

[ECHOnce]

Well, call me a stickler for aesthetics, because I really am, but to me, Pit:M is just confusing, Lucario:M's movements are way too over-the-top for his stoic, tai-chi like style, and Falco:M is a glorified alternate costume for Fox.

I understand the mechanics , but mechanics aren't the only part of a character.

That may be the case for you personally, but as characters in general, they're the most efficient versions of themselves. Pit was made a lot faster and stronger, Lucario was made much faster to make up for his short range, and his moves were made cancellable into one another as a get-around for his long move animations. And Melee Falco > Brawl Falco, even if he is seemingly less unique from Fox than Brawl Falco. You might not notice it if you haven't played many Melee or PM Fox/Falcos, or play them yourself, but they do play extremely differently, even if their movesets appear a little similar.

 

[Angell]

Well, call me a stickler for aesthetics, because I really am, but to me, Pit:M is just confusing, Lucario:M's movements are way too over-the-top for his stoic, tai-chi like style, and Falco:M is a glorified alternate costume for Fox.

I understand the mechanics , but mechanics aren't the only part of a character.

You could us one of my favorite quotes here. "The best way to save face is to close the bottom half of it"

About that falco thing... I have never laughed harder in my life LOL. Please do a little more research before spewing your opinions. When I was new I said my stupid opinions about my brawl main, I was more wrong than you are here.

Also to answer your thread title... No

 

[Saikyoshi]

You could us one of my favorite quotes here. "The best way to save face is to close the bottom half of it"

About that falco thing... I have never laughed harder in my life LOL. Please do a little more research before spewing your opinions. When I was new I said my stupid opinions about my brawl main, I was more wrong than you are here.

Also to answer your thread title... No

While you were blabbering about how wrong my point is, you conveniently ignored my entire point. I know their playstyles are completely different, but really, the fact that their animations are identical is just ridiculous.

Seriously, I'm a competitive player. I know.

That may be the case for you personally, but as characters in general, they're the most efficient versions of themselves. Pit was made a lot faster and stronger, Lucario was made much faster to make up for his short range, and his moves were made cancellable into one another as a get-around for his long move animations. And Melee Falco > Brawl Falco, even if he is seemingly less unique from Fox than Brawl Falco. You might not notice it if you haven't played many Melee or PM Fox/Falcos, or play them yourself, but they do play extremely differently, even if their movesets appear a little similar.

My point is it looks like Pit's moveset was just made up on the fly, and Lucario's doesn't fit his character at all. It's visually jarring.

Do they make competitive sense? Absolutely. Do they look good? Hell no.

 

[ECHOnce]

My point is it looks like Pit's moveset was just made up on the fly, and Lucario's doesn't fit his character at all. It's visually jarring.

No moveset was made up on the fly. PMBR isn't just a bunch of fools that throw things together because they feel like it; they test things until they feel they work. Concerning Pit, his moveset is the same as Brawl Pits for the most part, just with major changes to how each move functions (although the changes are universal across each move that resembles one another). The few that were completely redone were his Side-B and Up-B. Both were considered either annoying, were fairly limited in usage, or were simply overpowered. Regardless of whether the rest of the moveset was going to be changed, it would've been anyone's guess that these two moves would be, at the very least. Brawl Side-B was unnecessary, it was spammy, and served little purpose other than to interrupt moves (which most of his moveset can now do, with quick startup speed) or to reflect projectiles (can still be done with Down-B or the 2-frame power shield). Replacing it with his glide was a pretty good decision imo; it gave him access to one of his best tools immediately from standing position or in the air, rather than having to waste time jumping beforehand and whatnot (iirc the Brawl input for glide). Brawl Up-B was pretty OP...not gonna beat around the bush. They pulled that one out of the bag, but it's a fairly viable move and works as it is. It might be pretty short, but several other characters with multiple jumps have similar up-B mechancics - D3 and Kirby both go up quickly. He has the glide to make up for the short distance, anyhow.

...not sure where you came up with that opinion, but most people who have ever watched a good pro Lucario play would call it anything but "visually jarring." In fact, it's probably one of the more desirable movesets in the game, in terms of visual aesthetic; it's moves combo so well into themselves that each combo just looks like one fluid motion/attack. It's pretty stunning imo.

 

[Saikyoshi]

No moveset was made up on the fly. PMBR isn't just a bunch of fools that throw things together because they feel like it; they test things until they feel they work. Concerning Pit, his moveset is the same as Brawl Pits for the most part, just with major changes to how each move functions (although the changes are universal across each move that resembles one another). The few that were completely redone were his Side-B and Up-B. Both were considered either annoying, were fairly limited in usage, or were simply overpowered. Regardless of whether the rest of the moveset was going to be changed, it would've been anyone's guess that these two moves would be, at the very least. Brawl Side-B was unnecessary, it was spammy, and served little purpose other than to interrupt moves (which most of his moveset can now do, with quick startup speed) or to reflect projectiles (can still be done with Down-B or the 2-frame power shield). Replacing it with his glide was a pretty good decision imo; it gave him access to one of his best tools immediately from standing position or in the air, rather than having to waste time jumping beforehand and whatnot (iirc the Brawl input for glide). Brawl Up-B was pretty OP...not gonna beat around the bush. They pulled that one out of the bag, but it's a fairly viable move and works as it is. It might be pretty short, but several other characters with multiple jumps have similar up-B mechancics - D3 and Kirby both go up quickly. He has the glide to make up for the short distance, anyhow.

...not sure where you came up with that opinion, but most people who have ever watched a good pro Lucario play would call it anything but "visually jarring." In fact, it's probably one of the more desirable movesets in the game, in terms of visual aesthetic; it's moves combo so well into themselves that each combo just looks like one fluid motion/attack. It's pretty stunning imo.

For Pit, I understand the side B removal and the up B need, but the MIRROR SHIELD as his RECOVERY? That's baffling to me.

For Lucario, he's SUPPOSED to be stoic and reserved, calm and collected, not the aggressive Akuma-like monster P:M portrays him acting like.

 

[Raijinken]

For Pit, I understand the side B removal and the up B need, but the MIRROR SHIELD as his RECOVERY? That's baffling to me.

For Lucario, he's SUPPOSED to be stoic and reserved, calm and collected, not the aggressive Akuma-like monster P:M portrays him acting like.

The Shield Bash does feel like a kind of silly choice, but it's also the most obvious way to let him attack with his recovery (short of making him hold his swordbowthing above him or making his wings cut people somehow). His old recovery was too strong for the PM physics to really allow.

 

[ECHOnce]

For Pit, I understand the side B removal and the up B need, but the MIRROR SHIELD as his RECOVERY? That's baffling to me.

For Lucario, he's SUPPOSED to be stoic and reserved, calm and collected, not the aggressive Akuma-like monster P:M portrays him acting like.

Is Mirror Shield being his Up-B really the only issue you have? Not the distance or short hitbox frames, or vulnerability from below? Not the actual aspects of the move, but the aesthetic? Well...if it's really the choice of aesthetic that's an issue, then...idk? In terms if the other things I named, it's a pretty reasonable move. Sorry if it looks that bad to you or is super non-canon or something .___.

On that note, so what if Lucario's fighting style isn't the exact same as in his original series. This is a Smash game. 0% of the characters move like they would in their respective series. Captain Falcon never fights physically ever. Ganondorf's fighting style doesn't even vaguely resemble his canon fighting style. Many Pokemon moves are slightly off their original intentions. Jigglypuff never really even fights in the Pokemon mangas/anime that much, and certainly wouldn't have done so by flying back and forth and around like she does in Melee if she has. On that note, Peach doesn't fight much either.

I could understand your feelings towards their movesets being changed; we all become accustomed to our favorite characters playing a certain way between games. But arguing over the aesthetics and canon fighting styles...it's not much of a strong argument that I think anyone with influence over the next update would consider.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Is Mirror Shield being his Up-B really the only issue you have? Not the distance or short hitbox frames, or vulnerability from below? Not the actual aspects of the move, but the aesthetic? Well...if it's really the choice of aesthetic that's an issue, then...idk? In terms if the other things I named, it's a pretty reasonable move. Sorry if it looks that bad to you or is super non-canon or something .___.

On that note, so what if Lucario's fighting style isn't the exact same as in his original series. This is a Smash game. 0% of the characters move like they would in their respective series. Captain Falcon never fights physically ever. Ganondorf's fighting style doesn't even vaguely resemble his canon fighting style. Many Pokemon moves are slightly off their original intentions. Jigglypuff never really even fights in the Pokemon mangas/anime that much, and certainly wouldn't have done so by flying back and forth and around like she does in Melee if she has. On that note, Peach doesn't fight much either.

I could understand your feelings towards their movesets being changed; we all become accustomed to our favorite characters playing a certain way between games. But arguing over the aesthetics and canon fighting styles...it's not much of a strong argument that I think anyone with influence over the next update would consider.

Yeah, it's the aesthetic that's the entire problem to me. The Mirror Shield Bash just looks off.

I see your point with Lucario, though. We'll just have to agree to disagree there.

But yeah, aesthetics are also my problem with Falco - I understand and agree with the reflector because that was big in his game, but I honestly don't see why he couldn't have kept modified versions of his Brawl F-smash and F-air. Those were his most visually unique attacks, and I don't think keeping those two would have changed his performance. He needs to be more visually distinct from Fox. It looked lazy in 2001 and it still looks lazy in 2014.

 

[Sqa$]

I wouldn't say that Falco needs the visual distinction from Fox. Think of Young/Toon Link v. Link and Roy v. Marth. Same animations for everything as well, but they function so differently. The sweet spots are different, their moves might do different things, strength, etc. So with the way that he looks, the same as Melee now, Falco is just a character you need to know how to fight as a distinctly different character than Fox. The thing about his character's changes is that the hitboxes were different in brawl. His F-Smash was an arc Downwards and had less range and power than it did in Brawl. Since it was really good, they thought to switch it back and give him even more power again. With his F-Air, the hitboxes were also different, kind of like Kirby's D-air, or other multi-hit attacks with strong final hits (like Ivysaur's N-air). The Flutterhush has three hits and the last one is what matters most. It makes his air game, yes, more like Fox, but on the contrary, it makes his game more familiar to fast paced players. The thing with the multi hit moves that I described before, they function best on floatier characters because one has the time to make them all come out. Falco's movement in P:M would make that move not very viable, which is part of the reason they switched it back.

 

[Star ☆]

But yeah, aesthetics are also my problem with Falco - I understand and agree with the reflector because that was big in his game, but I honestly don't see why he couldn't have kept modified versions of his Brawl F-smash and F-air. Those were his most visually unique attacks, and I don't think keeping those two would have changed his performance. He needs to be more visually distinct from Fox. It looked lazy in 2001 and it still looks lazy in 2014.

I think there would be hitbox differentiations compared to Melee if they were to change Falco's animation for his fair and forward smash unfortunately.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I wouldn't say that Falco needs the visual distinction from Fox. Think of Young/Toon Link v. Link and Roy v. Marth. Same animations for everything as well, but they function so differently. The sweet spots are different, their moves might do different things, strength, etc. So with the way that he looks, the same as Melee now, Falco is just a character you need to know how to fight as a distinctly different character than Fox. The thing about his character's changes is that the hitboxes were different in brawl. His F-Smash was an arc Downwards and had less range and power than it did in Brawl. Since it was really good, they thought to switch it back and give him even more power again. With his F-Air, the hitboxes were also different, kind of like Kirby's D-air, or other multi-hit attacks with strong final hits (like Ivysaur's N-air). The Flutterhush has three hits and the last one is what matters most. It makes his air game, yes, more like Fox, but on the contrary, it makes his game more familiar to fast paced players. The thing with the multi hit moves that I described before, they function best on floatier characters because one has the time to make them all come out. Falco's movement in P:M would make that move not very viable, which is part of the reason they switched it back.

They changed Roy and Toon Link's animations, though, because there was a need for visual distinction.

Why they didn't even try with Falco baffles me. If his Brawl moves weren't viable, why not give him new ones that fit with his Melee playstyle instead of making him a total clone again?

Seriously, how poorly they handled Falco is my only major problem with P:M as a whole.

 

[oathkeeper005]

Personally I Adapted to Pit in project M very well from playing Pit in Brawl (played Pit for years before I quit the game, and still enjoyed him casually). His A attacks all have animations that are near the same, but with hitboxes/speeds/Knockbacks all tweaked a bit. His Angel Ring was a bad move to begin with so removing it for his glide makes sense. His original Wings of Icarus move would not really make sense in the PM environment, and Shield bash still gives him a bit of extra mobility that doubles as a kill move, Ill admit its a weird looking move though. Overall He still has a lot of the same moves but they link together a lot better give him the utility he needs to adapt to most situations.

It did take me a few weeks to fully adapt to the idea that I could not recover from EVERYWHERE and had to be more conservative with my jumps, and I will miss my Glide Slash being a kill move. But I really do enjoy this incarnation of Pit and feel fully comfortable with his changes as someone who exclusively played him for years.

I don't buy the argument that it should be justified by "canon". The updated Kid Icarus style is already really different from classic. If anything His more limited flight ability and ground game focus is closer to idea of the original Kid Icarus anyways. As far As I know Uprising was not around to borrow ideas from (and the game was terrible regardless so I'm happy if it stays that way. I'm convinced Sakurai does not understand the Character of Pit AT ALL.)

Also: If you dont like Project M Pit then your in for a rough surprise for Smash 4 Pit. He really does feel like hes almost a new character to me.

Side Note: Most brawl characters needed big reworks to work in a melee styled game. Falco want back too being like he was in melee because it worked, it was popular, and it was actually very different from Fox on a higher level of play. The PMBR took a lot of care and thought into every change they made, and if they where not concerned with respecting the characters, then you would not see half the cool stuff project M has (like Warios Warioland moveset, Snakes Cigarette taunt, Pokemon TV show refrences, etc.) A lot of thought was put into correctly representing characters while still keeping them viable for the game.

 

[Sqa$]

They changed Roy and Toon Link's animations, though, because there was a need for visual distinction.

Why they didn't even try with Falco baffles me. If his Brawl moves weren't viable, why not give him new ones that fit with his Melee playstyle instead of making him a total clone again?

Seriously, how poorly they handled Falco is my only major problem with P:M as a whole.

Actually, PMBR really only changed Roy's F-tilt and N-air animations, and the N-air has the same exact hit boxes. Toon Link was given a new F-Smash and F-air (maybe) and the F-air basically functions the same, but nevertheless, they added little sparkles to the moves and the characters, which is what the aesthetics are that you seem to be pointing out.

Once again going back to Falco, he looks like a clone, but plays like a completely different character. He's slower than Fox, Lasers stun, D-air is a single hit spike, Shine sends people up, side b spikes, Up B has incredible knockback but less range, and he's slightly lighter than Fox. There are characters that are more cloney than Falco is. I personally think that the play styles are very different, but I guess that could be said for many characters, huh? Oh well, I think Falco was in no way a lazy way out for them, and I think the posts above me have discussed exactly what they were thinking when they revived the Melee popular/effective Falco form.

 

[Booster]

I've never liked Pit:M. He plays nothing like Pit:Brawl, and I don't see any clear goal or canon basis in his moves.

tl;dr: To me, he's not even Pit anymore.

This is just my opinion, but thoughts?

I agree, but honestly they made Lucario ALOT worse.

 

[Raijinken]

I agree, but honestly they made Lucario ALOT worse.

Functionally, or from a design standpoint? He was pretty average in Brawl to begin with, at least now he plays uniquely and can do visually impressive things besides fire massive Aura Spheres at people.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Functionally, or from a design standpoint? He was pretty average in Brawl to begin with, at least now he plays uniquely and can do visually impressive things besides fire massive Aura Spheres at people.

Now that you bring it up, I have problems with his function, too. He's just about the only Brawl character who was intended to be defensive, designed to make stunning comebacks with the Aura mechanic after weakening the opponent while he got to that point. I know this turned out to not actually work. But in my opinion, the PMBR should have improved on it like Smash 4 is doing rather than removing it and turning Lucario into someone that he really isn't. At all.

(Seriously. His personality is nothing like Akuma's.)

 

[Raijinken]

Now that you bring it up, I have problems with his function, too. He's just about the only Brawl character who was intended to be defensive, designed to make stunning comebacks with the Aura mechanic after weakening the opponent while he got to that point. I know this turned out to not actually work. But in my opinion, the PMBR should have improved on it like Smash 4 is doing rather than removing it and turning Lucario into someone that he really isn't. At all.

(Seriously. His personality is nothing like Akuma's.)

I mean, Ganondorf's still a pseudoclone of an F-Zero racer, they clearly don't always follow the obvious changes.

I do think it would have been interesting to change Lucario to still be that sort of defensive play-from-behind type character, but it goes pretty hard against their design goals. I don't think it's too unreasonable to extend his Fighting-type to a fighting-game sort of playstyle.

And I personally always considered him the poor man's Mewtwo in Brawl anyway, so I kinda like how they made him more unique.

 

[GeZ]

This thread really didn't need to go past Angell's post. Unnecessary gripes. Lucario is beautifully well put together. Screw the canon of Zen, that was barely there to begin with. This is much more fighting game esque anyway. And I made a post about this regarding Ganondorf a while ago but the versions of characters shown in smash games are their own definitive versions, though this applies for some more than others. To whine about inconsistencies is irrelevant.

 

[Angell]

I'm a competitive player.

OBJECTION

 

[Angrycuban]

I love PM pit, he just feels so agressive and fierce, like i can control the pace of the game at all times which is why i play him, maybe thats a testament to him being a bit overpowered but whatever haha

also on the topic of lucario, how can anyone say the brawl mechanic was better? The game literally rewarded you for playing badly...thats a terrible mechanic lmao

 

[Saikyoshi]

I love PM pit, he just feels so agressive and fierce, like i can control the pace of the game at all times which is why i play him, maybe thats a testament to him being a bit overpowered but whatever haha

also on the topic of lucario, how can anyone say the brawl mechanic was better? The game literally rewarded you for playing badly...thats a terrible mechanic lmao

No, it didn't. It rewarded your survival ability. If the opponent didn't go for the riskiest and earliest possible kills, they would get severely punished.

Fear the Lucario who has more stocks than you, because with the Aura mechanic, he can keep pushing his lead wider and wider as long as he can keep recovering. That's not rewarding bad play, that's rewarding going for a 4-stocker.

 

[Angrycuban]

No, it didn't. It rewarded your survival ability. If the opponent didn't go for the riskiest and earliest possible kills, they would get severely punished.

Fear the Lucario who has more stocks than you, because with the Aura mechanic, he can keep pushing his lead wider and wider as long as he can keep recovering. That's not rewarding bad play, that's rewarding going for a 4-stocker.

i mean, every character is rewarded by getting a lead and holding it, thats the goal of the entire game...the fact is that if you get hit, or killed with brawl lucario, you are rewarded. Thats a bad mechanic in my mind.

 

[Raijinken]

No, it didn't. It rewarded your survival ability. If the opponent didn't go for the riskiest and earliest possible kills, they would get severely punished.

Fear the Lucario who has more stocks than you, because with the Aura mechanic, he can keep pushing his lead wider and wider as long as he can keep recovering. That's not rewarding bad play, that's rewarding going for a 4-stocker.

But it's also penalizing defensive, evasive play (thus keeping your own percent low) in a game that was focused around defensive, evasive play. Aura saw far more use as a comeback mechanic (and a poor one) than as a lead-keeping mechanic, since it's so easy to lose your charge at high percent due to his floatiness and generally average recovery skill (compared to many in that game).

 

[Saikyoshi]

i mean, every character is rewarded by getting a lead and holding it, thats the goal of the entire game...the fact is that if you get hit, or killed with brawl lucario, you are rewarded. Thats a bad mechanic in my mind.

But you're not rewarded for being killed, your power resets to lowest if you get killed. You DON'T want to get killed as Brawl Lucario, more so than other characters.

But it's also penalizing defensive, evasive play (thus keeping your own percent low) in a game that was focused around defensive, evasive play. Aura saw far more use as a comeback mechanic (and a poor one) than as a lead-keeping mechanic, since it's so easy to lose your charge at high percent due to his floatiness and generally average recovery skill (compared to many in that game).

And that is why Smash 4 buffs it so much.

 

[Angrycuban]

But you're not rewarded for being killed, your power resets to lowest if you get killed. You DON'T want to get killed as Brawl Lucario, more so than other characters.


And that is why Smash 4 buffs it so much.

i suppose, it still rewards you for being hit which is a mechanic i can't agree with personally.

 

[Saikyoshi]

i suppose, it still rewards you for being hit which is a mechanic i can't agree with personally.

I personally use it by still playing defensively and chipping away at the opponent's life, and since a perfect defense is pretty much impossible, my damage raises normally and naturally.

The tricky part with him is deciding just when to switch paradigms and go on the offensive.

He's a wall - one that has a booby trap behind it once broken through. Lucario:M loses that property and just becomes another straight-up all-offensive fighter.

 

[Angrycuban]

I personally use it by still playing defensively and chipping away at the opponent's life, and since a perfect defense is pretty much impossible, my damage raises normally and naturally.

The tricky part with him is deciding just when to switch paradigms and go on the offensive.

He's a wall - one that has a booby trap behind it once broken through. Lucario:M loses that property and just becomes another straight-up all-offensive fighter.

fair enough, but Pm is in general, a more aggressive game than brawl so its natural that he would play more aggressively. I find Lucario to be pretty interesting in PM, he punishes insanely hard and has good movement but he has a mediocre neutral game so he plays similar to melee sheik where he waits for you to mess up then tries to touch you once and not let go til he takes the stock, i dunno I see what your saying but i still find lucario to one of the most well designed chhoraracters in PM.

I also play a ton of street fighter so seeing a smash character use a shoryu and tatu is kinda cool :3

 

[Saikyoshi]

fair enough, but Pm is in general, a more aggressive game than brawl so its natural that he would play more aggressively. I find Lucario to be pretty interesting in PM, he punishes insanely hard and has good movement but he has a mediocre neutral game so he plays similar to melee sheik where he waits for you to mess up then tries to touch you once and not let go til he takes the stock, i dunno I see what your saying but i still find lucario to one of the most well designed chhoraracters in PM.

I also play a ton of street fighter so seeing a smash character use a shoryu and tatu is kinda cool :3

I play Street Fighter, too, but we already have a Shoto character in the form of Mario.

I personally just really don't like him, and he kind of makes me sad. The Super Meter doesn't fit him. The animations DEFINITELY don't fit him. He's just plain not Lucario anymore.

I would've preferred that they just plain finished the job and put Akuma in rather than half-overwriting and leaving just a shell of a character I liked. The moves and playstyle fit him. Not Lucario.

 

[Liquid Brick]

If you feel so personally attacked or something because of these changes, I'd suggest talking to the PMBR character design team. They'd have much more input and explainable logic behind their actions than anyone else in the community, because they kinda made the game the way it is...for better or worse.
Pit's pretty enjoyable in PM though for me personally. Not the same as Brawl by any means, but that's ok. If I wanted to play Brawl Pit, I'd still play Brawl, or even Brawl Minus.
If animations are your issue, then I can't really do anything to change your preferences, but just know that to some people, this just might be the best form or Pit or Lucario yet. The characters change so radically from each new Smash Brothers installment that such a profound change in character design and gameplay is to be partially expected from PM. Not that I agree with everything that they do, but I personally find it reasonable to want to change a character to allow them to excel in a new environment. In other words: what made Brawl Pit so much like Brawl Pit had as much to do with Brawl as it did with Pit the character. This is not Brawl; PM has formed it's own identity, and as such the characters can form a refreshing and unique identity in PM. Give them a chance.

 

[D-idara]

He still doesn't feel like Pit to me, though. More like someone in a Pit costume.

It's the same problem I have with Lucario:M and Falco:M; it sacrifices the character's own characteristics for competitive viability.

I would have personally preferred tweaking how his moves work, like most of the other characters, rather than giving him a complete moveset overhaul.

Don't mess with martial artist Lucario, but I do think Pit got a little murdered as a character on Project M, I mean, his SideB being reduced to a recovery move with no hitbox, his UpB...well...being what it is...

 

[GeZ]

Both of those moves were changed because they were dumb in Brawl, just like Brawl was dumb in Brawl. It's kind of a theme.

 

[Maikou]

I mean, Ganondorf's still a pseudoclone of an F-Zero racer, they clearly don't always follow the obvious changes.

I do think it would have been interesting to change Lucario to still be that sort of defensive play-from-behind type character, but it goes pretty hard against their design goals. I don't think it's too unreasonable to extend his Fighting-type to a fighting-game sort of playstyle.

And I personally always considered him the poor man's Mewtwo in Brawl anyway, so I kinda like how they made him more unique.

Excuse me?! Lucario and Mewtwo are completely different already! Their only similarities were TWO MOVES! just because they share a similar-looking Neutral B and Forward Smash DOES NOT MAKE THEM ANYTHING LIKE EACH OTHER!

I play Street Fighter, too, but we already have a Shoto character in the form of Mario.

I personally just really don't like him, and he kind of makes me sad. The Super Meter doesn't fit him. The animations DEFINITELY don't fit him. He's just plain not Lucario anymore.

I would've preferred that they just plain finished the job and put Akuma in rather than half-overwriting and leaving just a shell of a character I liked. The moves and playstyle fit him. Not Lucario.

Quite frankly, this. Really, while my own personal gripe with PM Lucario is more to do with his Down-Special, I'm rather annoyed by how much they changed him to be like a Street Fighter character.

I know that with the new Down-Special, Lucario can do things like "go through projectiles" or "approach" but really, with his speed boost, is that even necessary? Hear me out: Quite frankly, this fake dash move can't cover all of Gokario's Spirit Bomb. There's also the whole "speed" thing. This move literally stop your momentum, moves two inches forward, and then stops again. Literally just that.

However Lucario's old Down Special can pretty much do similar things. Getting hit with a projectile while in the counter stance still causes the counter to happen, and Lucario's counter covers distance. OR, one can simply, you know, DODGE, either by rolling, sidestepping, or jumping over. One tries to follow with a physical move, and you just counter them. I get that perfect timing is required for every move in competitive play, but really, you have no excuse; The dash is only useful in set situations unless to you know every move your enemy will make. The counter is more openly useful, looks cool, and also fits LUCARIO better than RYU/AKUMA.

I'm not even going to bother trying to defend the Aura Mechanic, since you people are obsessed with seeing it as everything it ISN'T.

Seriously, the only two things I really want for Project M's Lucario is to have the Counter back, and to have Lucario's running animation changed. (You know the running style from the cutscenes? and the anime? Yeah, that one) I do like some of the changes though. That Aerial Side-B grab throw is really cool, even if it's nearly impossible to land. Actually, I'd really like the grab range on that move to be a bit more forgiving; It's a lot easier to grab someone when you're on the same level than when falling from the sky.

 

[Zoa]

The aesthetic Lucario gripes in here are subjective and just absolutely inaccurate when being mentioned in a competitive sense. If you have any such issues with Luc, then bring it to said board please. You'll get much better results talking to said Luc players instead of the Pit P:M forums.

@ GeZ How do I mega ultra like your posts? I keep pressing the button multiple times and get nothing.