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Wario Time! The Wario's Weekly Match-Ups! Gathering Info and PICS!

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
Wario can avoid lasers fairly well with his airdodge and airspeed, Falco's sideB can be punished with a good read and a shorthop airdodge into grab or something, bite maybe. Honestly I've never played a SUPER campy Falco, but I have experience with Nerd's Falco (really legit).

Pwneroni vs Nerd @ LOST [Aug-2010]

This was before I used tires at all pretty much, but my Kung Fu style was quite advanced and developed. Nerd is quite a smart player, and camps very well with Falco. I do an adequate job at getting through with Nair, Bair and Dair (but not quite good enough).
 

B.Mack

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
920
Location
England
So I'm pretty convinced that Falco dominates Wario. What options does Wario have to get inside a falco that only camps lasers and side B?
I think the matchup is 55:45 to Falco if not worse... nair and utilt beat our entire moveset. but Wario's two main strengths in this matchup are the dthrow CG from 50-120% and how awesome Wario is at punishing Falco's recovery. I mean, nair beats out Falco's sideB. how tasty is that? if you can ever force Falco to recover onstage, you get a free nair. not to mention freaking fsmash beats it too!

You just have to play smart, get in Falco's space, and STAY in there. if you dont give them the space to camp, they'll give up on trying. you can bike through lasers and if you jump up close to Falco and they are lasering, they will get carried away and try to hit/grab you.then you make your move :D
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
I was playing with my apprentice yesterday (He's a Wario player that uses the tag lies, he doesn't have any videos on youtube yet but he' has an incredibly mind and imo plays a lot like fiction) and I played as gay as humanly possible. I don't see ANYTHING Wario can possibly do in the matchup. Wario can't punish Side B. If Falco has good reactions and side Bs when Wario is just the right distance from him he has no good option to beat it. Nair is too slow, we tested it pretty thoroughly and won't work unless you throw out the nair at about the exact time that Falco side Bs, and if Falco side Bs at the right times it should almost never work.

Utilt beats everything but you don't even have to use it, you can literally just spam rolls to keep him away (and while Warios weaving it good he isn't fast enough to catch falco if he runs away).

Also wario has no legit way to get a grab on falco really. Falcos keep away game is so absurdly good. I don't even see how you can kill him unless he does something stupid or if you fart him out of side B or something.

I know you guys probably think I'm theorycrafting or something so I'll upload some videos of us playing the matchup as soon as I can so you guys can analyze a little. I honestly think this is Warios worst matchup, or at least as bad as Dedede. At least you have legit ways to force Dedede into a kill. I can barely see how you can even start combos on a falco that PURELY camps. Keep in mind when watching DEHF vs Ficiton etc DEHF actually goes for reads and punishes but you literally dont have to outside of minimal defensive measures. Aside from that you can just not approach and force him into your kill moves...
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
Tires are really great at stopping side B if you hit the second half. If Falco is as hard as D3, then I'm okay with that (6-4)
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
Tires are really great at stopping side B if you hit the second half. If Falco is as hard as D3, then I'm okay with that (6-4)
Matchup ratios are hella arbritrary but I think Dedede Wario is closer to 65:35. If it's closer to 60:40 then I think Falco is worse, at least 65:35 on FD, SV and BF.
You have no realistic way of forcing Falco to side B if you're holding a tire. You have no access to your aerials to he can continue running away the same way he normally does. Tire bouncing strats won't work because he reflect it as it bounces and negate the normal bounce combos/shield pressure.

I remember dehf posting saying its like 55:45 or 50:50
DEHF doesn't camp very hard at all in this matchup. I just got done watching all of his sets with ficiton. He's obviously a smart player who gets good reads but by trying to read your opponent you take risks whereas by pure camping you take almost zero risks.

Anyway I know it sounds like I'm making a huge deal in this matchup so I'm gonna do a video analysis on some of DEHF/Fiction and upload some matchups of me playig Lies as well. I'm pretty convinced this is easily one of Warios worst matchups...
 

B.Mack

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
920
Location
England
RedHalberd you're theorycrafting... the reality of it is that almost no player is gay/patient enough to not fall for a bait if Wario just jumps at them. and even if he is, it becomes easy to identify a pattern and punish Falco. I agree that it's just as bad as D3 though, the matchup can be very hard, but it's FAR from unwinnable even when Falco plays incredibly gay.

if I was playing a gay Falco I'd just run at him and take a hit, if only to throw off his camping pattern. and then I can punish accordingly. if I run at him and he doesnt hit me then I get a free combo. I EXPECT him to run away so I'll be looking for the sideB anyway. and it's pretty much a free kill for Wario if he gets Falco offstage and edgeguards correctly.
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
Wario has the tools to get around anything in the game. But that's just my opinion I guess
LOL thanks for your contribution Max ;)
RedHalberd you're theorycrafting... the reality of it is that almost no player is gay/patient enough to not fall for a bait if Wario just jumps at them. and even if he is, it becomes easy to identify a pattern and punish Falco. I agree that it's just as bad as D3 though, the matchup can be very hard, but it's FAR from unwinnable even when Falco plays incredibly gay.
You're talking about player factors that are indepent of the characters actual zoning/spacing options. You're absolutely wrong about both of these things. A matchup ratio is determined assuming both players read each other roughly equally on an executionary and reactionary level. That's like saying "Oh if you read falco perfectly this matchup is easy". Of course it is, you're reading everything he does, which means you're simply outplaying your opponent.

if I was playing a gay Falco I'd just run at him and take a hit, if only to throw off his camping pattern. and then I can punish accordingly. if I run at him and he doesnt hit me then I get a free combo. I EXPECT him to run away so I'll be looking for the sideB anyway. and it's pretty much a free kill for Wario if he gets Falco offstage and edgeguards correctly.
You're theorycrafting a lot harder than I was, I was describing actual individual scenarios...That will only work if you're actually able to pressure the player behind the falco. If I run at him and he doesn't hit me? That's not a scenario. An actual likely scenario would look something more like this.

From a roughly neutral position with both characters on the ground. Falco is laser camping. Wario normally jumps in anticipation of falcos lasers but as a mix up he runs directly at falco to attempt to dash grab as Falco is rising during a SHLaser. A good falco player would already be adequately spaced from this point, so there's no way Wario should reach falco before the second laser comes out. If any of you have seen the latest metagame thingy you'll know that falco has frame advantage on powershield. So assuming that wario is even close enough after powershielding the laser to grab he's still at a statistical advantage to roll, grab, jab etc. Assuming he always chooses the safest possible option, rolling backwards or forwards he won't get hit. Now this isn't necessary but for the sake of my arguement of Wario having no viable way of damaging falco much he never has to resort to actual mix ups. Instead, Wario is more likely to get punished with a grab or jab that will beat out his shieldgrab.

I'll do a second by second anaylsis of a DEHF vs Fiction video when I get home. I can easily show that every time DEHF gets hit he had the option of getting hit whereas whenever Fiction gets hit it's usually forced.
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
Verrry interesting stuff RedHalberd! Falco's frame advantages are very noticeable, especially if the Falco player is adept and knows what they're doing.

So basically what you're saying.... is that lasers and sideB are neigh unbeatable by the character Wario? I will agree that if Falco predicts everything perfectly, then it would probably be super difficult or impossible for Wario to get in on his defense.

But then what if the Wario player was playing perfectly? That's what theory crafting is, right? Hmmmmm... well for one thing Wario's Dtilt can inerrupt Falco's sideB if timed correctly (the Dtilt comes out in 4 or 5 frames). Landing one of these will hit Falco and give him landing lag as well, which Wario could use to score some damage possibly.

You also haven't taken tires into account. Tires give Wario a good amount of range and priority, nothing to shake a stick at. I believe that tires may hold the key to breaking Falco's turtle shell, but I haven't tested it out on a camp-only falco yet (are there any?)
 

Labernash

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
1,674
Can't Wario catch Falco out of sideB with bite if his back is towards Falco?
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Messages
6,040
Location
Apopka Florida
LOL thanks for your contribution Max ;)
You're talking about player factors that are indepent of the characters actual zoning/spacing options. You're absolutely wrong about both of these things. A matchup ratio is determined assuming both players read each other roughly equally on an executionary and reactionary level. That's like saying "Oh if you read falco perfectly this matchup is easy". Of course it is, you're reading everything he does, which means you're simply outplaying your opponent.


You're theorycrafting a lot harder than I was, I was describing actual individual scenarios...That will only work if you're actually able to pressure the player behind the falco. If I run at him and he doesn't hit me? That's not a scenario. An actual likely scenario would look something more like this.

From a roughly neutral position with both characters on the ground. Falco is laser camping. Wario normally jumps in anticipation of falcos lasers but as a mix up he runs directly at falco to attempt to dash grab as Falco is rising during a SHLaser. A good falco player would already be adequately spaced from this point, so there's no way Wario should reach falco before the second laser comes out. If any of you have seen the latest metagame thingy you'll know that falco has frame advantage on powershield. So assuming that wario is even close enough after powershielding the laser to grab he's still at a statistical advantage to roll, grab, jab etc. Assuming he always chooses the safest possible option, rolling backwards or forwards he won't get hit. Now this isn't necessary but for the sake of my arguement of Wario having no viable way of damaging falco much he never has to resort to actual mix ups. Instead, Wario is more likely to get punished with a grab or jab that will beat out his shieldgrab.

I'll do a second by second anaylsis of a DEHF vs Fiction video when I get home. I can easily show that every time DEHF gets hit he had the option of getting hit whereas whenever Fiction gets hit it's usually forced.
to the above metagame mentioning...

35 frames before you shoot the laser + 10 frames before the laser comes out= 45 frames of being in someone's face with no kind of action.

Reaction speed is 10-15 frames

That's the main problem.
I don't think that's that big of a deal...also, it's not the same if it's powershielded and if the lasers are stale even one level it's not a free grab.
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
3,006
Location
Florida
I don't think that's that big of a deal...also, it's not the same if it's powershielded and if the lasers are stale even one level it's not a free grab.
Power shielding only removes shield drop and reduces shield push. It doesn't reduce shield stun. The only different effects of a stale laser are reduced damage and that the -1 frame on shield no longer gives Falco a guaranteed grab. Even then, Falco will still frame trap Wario into a guaranteed jab (IIRC) if Wario spot dodges the grab when the laser is stale, and can Fsmash instead if he reads the spot dodge.
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
I played this matchup a bit more with Lies today. I wasn't able to make the smashfest tomorrow so it's going to be a while until I have vids of it. He was definitely playing the matchup a lot better today, though I was still beating him pretty solidly. Xdeath will have some videos of him up soon so you guys can see that I'm talking about a super legit up and coming wario and not just anybody :awesome:

But either way, I still stand that the matchup is really bad if Wario plays as campy as possible. I feel like he's a faster player than I am, he's just less experienced so I can imagine him bringing the matchup closer between us, though I feel Falco definitely has a pretty large inherent advantage.

I'll watch some vids tonight and see if I feel like writing up and where punishments are skewed and stuff like that...
 

B.Mack

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
920
Location
England
Wario isnt supposed to camp in that matchup anyway. it's like Ganon camping against Olimar.

and yeah, I have the tendency to do a lot of sh*tty theorycrafting but I'm really just trying to pass my opinion.

I was playing Anaky(best UK Marth and definitely top 5 or so Marf in the world) a while ago when I switched up my playstyle a little. he was playing VERY safe and campy, and I was camping VERY close to him. eventually it frustrated him that he couldnt hit me and he started making hard reads which he got punished for. That's the ONLY time I've ever taken a serious game off Anaky and that's what I mean by most players would fall for Wario's amazing baiting mindgames eventually.

By the end of the day, laser, grab, jab and sideB arent kill moves. Falco will have to get out of supercamp mode at some point and start using riskier moves. and when he does, I think we all know that Wario has the ability quickly bring it back from a 100% disadvantage, land a fart and take the lead.

if Falco could kill with sideB or lasers then this matchup would be neigh impossible for Wario. but fortunately, he must use aerials or smash attacks. and Wario can capitalise on that.

Dont forget that when Falco is at around 50% we have the option to fart for a kill or dthrow CG him to 120%. Redhalberd... I think you underestimate this fat Frenchman.

I cant wait for these "Lies" videos. in the meantime, I leave you with this:
Glutonny vs Deimos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoKXUr2Ow1Q

^also watch how difficult it is for Falco to recover against Wario. although I'd put some of it down to Deimos being silly and Glutonny being genius at timing fsmashes.
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
I feel your video proves my point more than anything...

Glutonny is a FAR superior player to Deimos. An matchup is determined at players of even skill and knowledge/execution of options. Deimos was recovering predictably as well. Even with that being said I don't feel Glutonny plays the matchup anywhere near optimally. He recovers badly and Deimos could have taken his first stock by a well timed edghog. Deimos on the other hand DI'd badly and his close range gameplay was very sloppy. He was very predictable with his Side B recoveries onto the stage as well.

All this considered, he STILL took a game off glutonny. Now on the other hand, imagine Glutonnys falco vs Glutonnys wario. If Glutonny camped he would probably destroy himself, Deimos' execution is no where NEAR on par with Glutonnys.

Anyways unfortunately I have an exam on Monday and I have to spend all day studying but tomorrow my friend should have some videos of Lies uploaded, though not against me. I genuinely think he's going to be the next top Wario :)
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,065
"If Glutonny camped he would probably destroy himself"

===

Hahaha that made me laugh :D I must know more about this Wario player Lies. Can't wait to see some footage of him!
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Messages
6,040
Location
Apopka Florida
Power shielding only removes shield drop and reduces shield push. It doesn't reduce shield stun. The only different effects of a stale laser are reduced damage and that the -1 frame on shield no longer gives Falco a guaranteed grab. Even then, Falco will still frame trap Wario into a guaranteed jab (IIRC) if Wario spot dodges the grab when the laser is stale, and can Fsmash instead if he reads the spot dodge.
Thx, i wasn't really sure on that part. I knew about the frame trapping part though. Regardless of the above, this fact is not even that big of a deal. The situation is very unlikely vs wario and wario has the speed to punish within 45 frames becuase the laser HAS to be silent...
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
3,006
Location
Florida
Thx, i wasn't really sure on that part. I knew about the frame trapping part though. Regardless of the above, this fact is not even that big of a deal. The situation is very unlikely vs wario and wario has the speed to punish within 45 frames becuase the laser HAS to be silent...
I'm pretty sure that non-silent lasers frame trap as well, and that silent lasers are just the most advantageous hits.
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
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Location
Tampa, FL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmGhYZI2hKg

There aren't any singles vids of Lies Wario but here are a few dubs vids you can watch. I'm going through it and both his smarts and inexperience show. He's in a locals doubles tourney right now actually...

Wario in dubs starts at 1 hour, 11 minutes and 50ish seconds. Thanks to Xdeath for uploading <333
 

SAX

Smash Ace
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
510
Location
Apopka
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmGhYZI2hKg

There aren't any singles vids of Lies Wario but here are a few dubs vids you can watch. I'm going through it and both his smarts and inexperience show. He's in a locals doubles tourney right now actually...

Wario in dubs starts at 1 hour, 11 minutes and 50ish seconds. Thanks to Xdeath for uploading <333
He looks pretty good! Hopefully he'll start showing his face around here, I'd love to see him. It'll only make our wario scene better.

And I know EVERYONE is gonna disagree with me on this one, But me, PERSONALLY, you DO NOT have to agree and I know most of you won't, But I think Wario wins the falco MU. Maybe it's because I haven't played the best falco player in the world or anything, but that's my opinion. Once wario gets in, there doesn't seem to be much falco can do. Not saying I'm going to be ever falco I meet or anything like that, I just believe falco can be unpredictable only to an extent. Once a good wario player gets momentum, heck he doesn't even have to have momentum. Just read a roll and fart.
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
3,006
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Florida
We would have dominated if I wasn't so bad haha. <3 you too Halzy.

We did do a lot better as we kept playing, though. Then Trump went MK and couldn't stop SDing.
 
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