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Q&A Wario Q&A and Help Thread - What's Wario Land

C0rvus

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So I've been on kind of a Wario binge lately. Just been in the mood to play him for some reason. What the heck should I be doing in neutral, though? I get the defensive end for the most part, but how can I combat defensive play or be aggressive with him?

Wario's a pretty fun character, I get pretty frustrated with some of his matchups and sometimes getting the kill is a pain, but that's all stuff to work on. As a player I think I tend towards defensive play, I feel like I'm pretty decent at getting hard reads, and I like to go offstage for edgeguards. I tend to struggle with characters like Mario and Fox already, and I think I shield too much. Do you think Wario might be a good fit for me? Been stuck soul searching lately, and Wario caught my attention, I mained him briefly last year and stopped because... I don't actually remember why.

Edit: Sorry for all the questions, but I suppose I should ask about stuff to be labbing with Wario. Anything I can practice on my own?
 
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ZeGlasses!

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I've thought a bit about the trip effect of dash attack lately and ways to utilize it better. When you trip someone on stage, what typically are your best options/ideas for taking advantage of it? I'll try and tech chase for another dash attack often, but wondering if there's something more optimal and creative I can do with this. I know there's tip of dash attack to waft, but seems a little unpractical.
Bike is a pretty solid followup to a trip. It covers most get-up options and it's pretty safe.
 

CoveredNMoney

Smash Cadet
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Hey guys I'm training for a tourney on Friday. Can anyone give me tips on what to practice?
Preferably wario specific things

I usually practice these in training mode.
-movement
-combos into waft
-Fastfalling aerielals
-bike shenanigans
-spacing
-edge guards
-ledge trumping
 

WRECK-IT MUNDO

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Hey guys I'm training for a tourney on Friday. Can anyone give me tips on what to practice?
Preferably wario specific things

I usually practice these in training mode.
-movement
-combos into waft
-Fastfalling aerielals
-bike shenanigans
-spacing
-edge guards
-ledge trumping
Good for you! Practising the WAH techs for a better result!

Practise reverse Neutral B's!

But don't forget to train your neutral for understanding your opponent's choices as well! Wario is not that kind of a character where he relays on his safest moves, because he doesn't really have a very safe option to go with.
 

Inexorable Doozy

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Okay so, i imagine some Wario scientist has already figured this out, but while i was messing around in training mode, i randomly rode the bike offstage and was able to turn it TWICE mid air? It played the turning animation like normal, as though i were on flat ground.

The only way iv'e been able to figure out how to reproduce this is standing at the ledge, jumping and getting on the bike at some point, i couldn't figure out the timing but it seems like the bike has to interact with the ground at some point.

I tried it on the battlefield platforms and it works there to, but again, i have no idea how to reproduce this consistently and haven't been able to turn it twice like i did the first time. All iv'e found i can do with this is that i can sometimes turn the bike mid air, allowing me to immediately ram into the wall.

I'm probably missing something here, and someone has talked about it before, but i don't know. I'm just interested to know if there's anything to take from this, or if anyone even has info on this weirdness.

(I was playing the 3DS version, in case that could possibly be relevant)
 
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WRECK-IT MUNDO

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Okay so, i imagine some Wario scientist has already figured this out, but while i was messing around in training mode, i randomly rode the bike offstage and was able to turn it TWICE mid air? It played the turning animation like normal, as though i were on flat ground.

The only way iv'e been able to figure out how to reproduce this is standing at the ledge, jumping and getting on the bike at some point, i couldn't figure out the timing but it seems like the bike has to interact with the ground at some point.

I tried it on the battlefield platforms and it works there to, but again, i have no idea how to reproduce this consistently and haven't been able to turn it twice like i did the first time. All iv'e found i can do with this is that i can sometimes turn the bike mid air, allowing me to immediately ram into the wall.

I'm probably missing something here, and someone has talked about it before, but i don't know. I'm just interested to know if there's anything to take from this, or if anyone even has info on this weirdness.

(I was playing the 3DS version, in case that could possibly be relevant)
Yeah it's a notable trick who was also present in Brawl. You've to stand close the edge of a platform or at the ledge before performing it.

Good thing this trick is very easy to do on Lylat, but is it useful? I donno lol! https://gfycat.com/SmartConstantIchthyosaurs
 

luke_atyeo

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hey dudes, I'm trying to collect a bunch of quick easy info graphics on essential character knowledge to make a quick reference guide for commentators (we all hate it when a commentator says something that is wrong)
This shulk thing here is an example of the kinda stuff I am looking for


I'm going around to all the character boards and it'll be a little messy for me to try and check them all, so if you have any cool things like that, or just some useful info that I could turn into a similar picture, please send me a message. Cheers lads.
 

Axel311

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Alright, I saw Nasubi do the weak uptilt to waft at 1:12 in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVJsPmKdn48 and tried labbing it a bit. How useful is this? Looks like it only beats standard getup and loses to getup attack?

Are there any practical setups to weak uptilt in the neutral? Thoughts on the usefulness of this setup?

My fault if this was discussed elsewhere, I couldn't find anything.
 
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Axel311

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why exactly do people seem to put wario so low on their tier lists
There's several reasons why -

- He has poor kill options and no kill setups outside of waft which is a big weakness since waft is single use with an almost 2 minute charge time.
- He has poor range and few disjoints, making him weak against swords and other disjointed hitboxes
- He has a poor approach, making him very prone to campy play and being walled out
- His frame data is only average, despite his poor range
- He loses against almost all the top tiers, badly in some situations. He notably does very poorly against Cloud, the most common character by far in the current meta
- He has little reward out of grab, a subpar combo game with no grab combos, and subpar damage output in general
- He relies on and is overcentralized on waft. Hitting waft is often a requirement to win sets against good players, meaning wario requires you to be clutch and precise just to "catch up" to other characters
- He has few results at big tournaments

His main tool, waft, is not near enough to balance out all his flaws. Thus why he's considered low mid tier at the moment. And honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he slips into low tier on the next backroom tier list. It pains me a lot to say that :(

#buffwario
 
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atticusfinch7

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Noob question: for second hit of nair into waft, is it faster/more guaranteed to full hop waft or short jump then double jump waft?
 

TheReflexWonder

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Noob question: for second hit of nair into waft, is it faster/more guaranteed to full hop waft or short jump then double jump waft?
The only thing that matters is how close you are to the ground when you hit the sourspot of N-Air, because in the overwhelming majority of situations, you'll need to hit the ground and jump again. Less time before touching the ground means more time to jump into another Waft.
 

atticusfinch7

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Thanks for the response.

Another question I have is a bit more technical. I know there's a MU thread on this board but it seems really inactive. What is the best way to edgeguard Corrin recovering vertically? I'm used to Dair fastfalling but that always seems to get beat by the upB. Is it just better to use the chance to setup a bike at the ledge? The way Corrin plays makes it so that landing a kill move can be really tough, so I feel like knowing how to edgeguard her is important for Wario to not lose the MU.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Hit Corrin on the head. Don't fastfall with D-Air as you risk getting hit on one of the frames where your attack is not active (it stops hitting on every other frame).

 

ItsASquid

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I've been doing very well as Wario, but there's a gaping hole in my play I need help with - Waft setups and matchup knowledge.

I'm good at conditionning opponents so I can make reads and raw-Waft. However I keep trying setups like N-Air 2 or speedy air bike into Waft, and miss spectacularly. Which setups are easiest to learn?

Also I have a co-main, Robin. Which matchups does Wario struggle with to the point I should call in Robin instead?
 

MajinBuu272

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one of my favorite things to do as wario is to get the ending hit(s) of his dash attack, which will trip them, and follow up from there ( i usually try to f-smash as they recover from the trip)

Edit: i also feel like the chomp would be a good follow up for this
 
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Axel311

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I've been doing very well as Wario, but there's a gaping hole in my play I need help with - Waft setups and matchup knowledge.

I'm good at conditionning opponents so I can make reads and raw-Waft. However I keep trying setups like N-Air 2 or speedy air bike into Waft, and miss spectacularly. Which setups are easiest to learn?

Also I have a co-main, Robin. Which matchups does Wario struggle with to the point I should call in Robin instead?
Just go into training mode and practice the waft setups over and over. Use a level 9 CPU set to attack, that way because they're frame perfect you'll know if you performed it too slowly or incorrectly since they'll airdodge it everytime.

I don't know the character well but I'd say Corrin is definitely going to be way better against Mewtwo because Mewtwo hates swords. Other than that, I'm not sure. Maybe Cloud/Bayonetta?
 

atticusfinch7

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Does anybody here know if non-perfect shielded Falcon's sideB can be punished by fsmash? I already know that it pushes you back enough so that Usmash doesn't work well. (Obviously if waft is ready that's the ideal)
 

WRECK-IT MUNDO

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Does anybody here know if non-perfect shielded Falcon's sideB can be punished by fsmash? I already know that it pushes you back enough so that Usmash doesn't work well. (Obviously if waft is ready that's the ideal)
Falcon can shield the Fsmash. I recommend try to punish it with a F-Tilt, Dash Attack or a Grab instead.
 

MagicSchlong

Smash Rookie
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Is my Nair 2 to Waft suppose
To register as true? Practicing in training and getting but not getting true
 

Axel311

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Is my Nair 2 to Waft suppose
To register as true? Practicing in training and getting but not getting true
It is true. Range varies by character and depends on hurtbox size and fall speed.
 
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MagicSchlong

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It is true. Range varies by character and depends on hurtbox size and fall speed.
So even if it dont say on combo counter in training mode I am doing it right becuz I am getting but it not saying true combo on training mode so not sure if i am doing it wrong still
 

TheReflexWonder

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The most important thing is to minimize the time between the sour N-Air hit and the Waft. The closer you are to the ground when N-Air2 hits, the more time you have available to follow up.
 

BSP

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Does anybody here know if non-perfect shielded Falcon's sideB can be punished by fsmash? I already know that it pushes you back enough so that Usmash doesn't work well. (Obviously if waft is ready that's the ideal)
Falcon is -17 on shield drop when he raptor boosts your shield. As Pac-Man, I can drop shield -> dash up smash him (F13), so you should be able to do the same thing with Wario since he has better traction than Pac-Man and is only slightly slower. Your Fsmash will get PS'd every time, so don't do it.
 
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TheReflexWonder

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Perfect shield -> F-Smash works, though, even if you were to drop your shield normally (becomes -19 after shield drop in that case).
 

atticusfinch7

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Since our board is kinda dead I might just keep asking questions to at least keep this thread going :gova:

I played FG for the first time in a while and fought against a villager who absolutely would not approach an inch. Bike normally helps these scenarios with project spam and rolling back, but the bike gets pocketed easily. I managed to barely win with 40 seconds or so left on the clock with a full waft offstage (very satisfying after a frustrating game). What are some tips for the villager MU? Full hop fair would get stuffed out by slingshot.
 

WRECK-IT MUNDO

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Since our board is kinda dead I might just keep asking questions to at least keep this thread going :gova:

I played FG for the first time in a while and fought against a villager who absolutely would not approach an inch. Bike normally helps these scenarios with project spam and rolling back, but the bike gets pocketed easily. I managed to barely win with 40 seconds or so left on the clock with a full waft offstage (very satisfying after a frustrating game). What are some tips for the villager MU? Full hop fair would get stuffed out by slingshot.
Importantly, don't get your bike pocketed :p. You don't have to use your bike all the time in neutral (This is also important for the Villager MU). Only use your bike for recovering (Recovering low or very high with the bike is recommended to avoid it being pocketed) or if you're sure that Villager is for an example going to us side B, that's a way to counter his rocket, but it can be risky so watch out. Also, I recommend to NOT use your bike more as an projectile/leaving it on stage, because Villager's Pocket invincibility will just go through your item play.

Chomp is always nice to use, but don't always think it will beat his projectile game all the time. Most Villagers try to shield many approach option of other players and punish them, luckily our command grab will prevent this Defensive tactic many times.

Fair/Bair are nice to use to poke/kill/clank his aerials (if done correct).

Staying in the Air is good, but do keep in mind the Villager can switch their playstyle if you're just going to stay in the air all the time. It's all based on the player.

Don't hesitate if you're going to edge guard Villager. He might have a crazy recovery, but so does Wario. Luckily his Up B isn't really save, because it has no hitbox at all, which gives us a good sign to just Dair or Waft Villagers offstage. The balloons even extend the hitboxes of our aerials and Waft.
 

Axel311

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Since our board is kinda dead I might just keep asking questions to at least keep this thread going :gova:

I played FG for the first time in a while and fought against a villager who absolutely would not approach an inch. Bike normally helps these scenarios with project spam and rolling back, but the bike gets pocketed easily. I managed to barely win with 40 seconds or so left on the clock with a full waft offstage (very satisfying after a frustrating game). What are some tips for the villager MU? Full hop fair would get stuffed out by slingshot.
My 2 cents -

It sucks when people play super super campy. Makes the match really boring. But when they do, just let them camp. Run away and take your free fart. And you've gotta be willing to let them time themselves out, should they continue to not approach when you have the lead. My favorite thing on for glory is when I time some

Generally though good campy villagers willl approach very slowly, get you at the very end of their slingshot range, and pin you to the ledge/suffocate you and force reactions.

And that's where Wario struggles in the MU. You kinda have to approach at times even with the lead. Luckily villager sucks up close and we edgeguard him for days so it's not all bad. Powershield the slingshot.

Also don't get too bothered by it because it's for glory and you're forced to play on FD, which is the worst stage for you in the villager matchup in my opinion. It's way easier to get away from the spam on BF and dreamland. And online lag definitely plays more to villager's favor.

As for the bike, just make sure you aren't even in a position to let him pocket it. When recovering, stay on the bike until it
 
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ItsASquid

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So the meta is currently super defensive atm. Wario may get a free waft from people who never approach or teabag all day, but there's no denying eventually he HAS to approach to use that waft. And against characters like Bayo and Cloud that's a death sentence.

So my question as Wario is how do you either approach or be aggressive?
 

TheReflexWonder

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So the meta is currently super defensive atm. Wario may get a free waft from people who never approach or teabag all day, but there's no denying eventually he HAS to approach to use that waft. And against characters like Bayo and Cloud that's a death sentence.

So my question as Wario is how do you either approach or be aggressive?
Lots of run turnaround cancel to be noncommittal. D-Tilt. Trying to bait and then rolling back/retreating airdodge. When you do that, your only reliable burst range tool, Dash Attack, is more likely to hit because they get comfortable in neutral when you're not moving far forward.

Using Forward-B just outside of an opponent's range can sometimes work, as well, since you move faster than normal and the Bike can help you avoid certain grounded pokes. That said, you're mostly baiting and threatening with Dash Attack or Roll Cancel Grab. The current metagame is not kind to Wario.
 

MERPIS

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Here's a tough question.
What was going through the balance team's heads when they decided that Usmash had to have a near SECOND of endlag?
 

Axel311

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Here's a tough question.
What was going through the balance team's heads when they decided that Usmash had to have a near SECOND of endlag?
I'd imagine it was "but we can't give him good smash attacks, because we have to balance out waft" or some similar rubbish.

It's pretty clear they thought waft was better than in smash 4 than it actually is, they clearly over-balanced for it. Long timer plus bad smashes plus a laggier moveset overall than brawl wario (RIP brawl dair). The buff to waft since brawl isn't good enough to balance out all the nerfs from brawl.
 
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MERPIS

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I'd imagine it was "but we can't give him good smash attacks, because we have to balance out waft" or some similar rubbish.

It's pretty clear they thought waft was better than in smash 4 than it actually is, they clearly over-balanced for it. Long timer plus bad smashes plus a laggier moveset overall than brawl wario (RIP brawl dair). The buff to waft since brawl isn't good enough to balance out all the nerfs from brawl.
If they cut Usmash's lag in half, make it shieldable as soon as he is actually done of the hitbox, make it just a little laggier than the y e e h a w, maybe 4 frame, to compensate for the bigger hitbox, and heavier kill power, instead of waiting until he actually lands back on both feet, I'd be happy with that only buff alone.
 
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