Wario Panel (Topics of Discussion and Standard Terms List)

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
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#1
Reserved for Wario Panel

Recommendations Received

Invitations Submitted

Panel Formed

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Topics of Discussion and Standard Terms List

To Do
Testing
Release
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
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#2
Testing, one twooooo and testing 1 2 3. Anyone out there? This is Oregon Wario main the one, the only, Pwneroni at your service.

So this is some advanced stuff? Is anyone here? IMO the first place to advance will be tire combos. They are by far the most technical, complicated and unexplored things in Wario's arsenal. His aerial mobility and moveset mesh easily with tires, I've found much as tires have been under exploration by yours truly. However, if more people try their hand then the more perspectives we have. More perspectives = higher chance of finding some siiiiick combos!
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
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#3
When I get the rest of the panelists in the lab, I'll help direct you guys on discussion topics.

But Tire combos/frame data is a good start :)
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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#4
The 1 thing about tire combos: with SDI, they tend to be rendered moot. Not that Mr. Doom kind of SDI, but a solid 3ish inputs or so. Most combos work off the basis of the opponent still being in that spot when the tire hits. Noticeable changes forwards or backwards tends to ruin them.

However, what I'm interested in are possibilities involving locking people with tires. For example, you get a low % Dair or Uair that legit flows into footstool. With a tire in hand, you can throw it down and start a lock. I never got around to testing it more in depth, but an interesting idea would be to try infiniting or comboing people through some combination involving that. Like Footstool -> Tire Lock -> Regrab tire and throw it upwards -> Regrab and Dthrow at the right time -> Footstool again/catch the tire -> repeat process. SDI would make the string end noticeably early, but it would be worth a shot imo if it was confirmed to be legit.
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
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#5
On the topic of SDI: DMG, you should read the SDI/DI thread Stealth Raptor posted in the Lab.

We'll be doing a public release of that info soon, after Kaylo gets us that MK formatting, but I/Stealth/Yika stumbled upon a way to get better than Mr. Doom esque SDI relatively easily

(ie, from dabbling with Wario, I've been able to SDI through an MK retreating Fair and waft them on a trade)
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
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#7
"Not DeLux SDI" :)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301363

You already read about it. It's the one labeled as DSDI, I think it's supposed to be "Double" SDI. We need to name that though

Manipulating the vectors by holding a analogue stick full throw input and tapping the cstick repeatedly in a new vector establishing direction


note: Maybe I should credit it me/Stealth/Yika/Kprime, because I based it off of your Shield DI > Grab stuff, but you told us that Yika told you that lol
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
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#9
GIMR asked me about it :\ So that's why it's in the video. I'm sure he'd confirm that. Like it might have been known to do that, but the mechanics as to why weren't understood until at least Yika pointed it out. Stealth and I confirmed the application in SDI and DI

And this IS using both sticks to SDI :\

Stealth and I actually had a theorcraft debate on how to achieve the ideal SDI:

My guess was to Analogue V or QCDI + Cstick V

aka:
Frame 1: Up + left on Analogue
Frame 2: Up + right on Cstick + (Up + left) on analogue stick
Frame 3: empty or up on analogue stick, empty on cstick
Frame 4: Up + right on Analogue stick
Frame 5: Up + left on Cstick + (Up + right) on analogue stick
Frame 6: empty or up on analogue stick, empty on cstick

That would give you 6 inputs of SDI up over 6 frames done frame perfectly

You would have to have empty frames if you strictly tapped to SDI.
 

Pikabunz

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#10
That looks impossible to do perfectly. It's much easier to just keep hitting up-left on the control stick and up-right on the c-stick instead of that method.
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
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#11
It is easier to do that (that's what I do when I play). Actually, the easiest to do would be to simply hold the analogue stick in one direction and repeatedly cstick in another then coordinating the timings of two sticks.

However, you in theory end up drifting one SDI vector in an undesired direction if you repeatedly tap. It switches in the V formation to prevent that in the ideal method. By holding, you negate that as well after the initial inputs.

I was talking strictly in theory for that scenario
 

Pikabunz

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#12
You will never need to switch though in actuality. You're always gonna waste frames letting the sticks go back to neutral and pressing them again.
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
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#13
That's the point.

DSDI minimizes the need to waste frames reneutralling sticks

You have to switch directions, in theory, because if you don't, you'd start drifting the wrong direction via that V-Tapping method. If you hold and only tap cstick, then you wouldn't have to switch.

Edit: Oh, I think I know what you mean now. At which point coordinating frame perfect alternating inputs in the V formation is harder than coordinating one non frame perfect input.
 

Pikabunz

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#14
I still don't get why you need to switch directions on the sticks.

What's wrong with doing this:

control stick up-left (hold)
c-stick up-right
reset
control stick up-left (hold)
c-stick up-right
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
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#15
There's nothing wrong with doing that (that's what I do when I SDI), assuming you were originally holding an input when entering hitlag.

Otherwise in order to get to the point of holding hte control stick, you would have to input an extra SDI input in a direction you don't necessarily want. The crazy one with rotating inputs balances that incidental input by putting another input in the opposite direction.

I think we're on the same page, I'm just poorly explaining things lol
 

Pwneroni

Smash Lord
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#16
SDI being present does not make tires moot at all. A large part of using tires successfully does not involve actually hitting your opponent with them. Tires disappear when they touch a shield or hitbox, so throwing them directly at an opponent is less likely to hit and more likely to be wasted.

The tire is a very quirky item. It bounces when thrown, and this is one of the main reasons they're so great. Tires retain their hitbox while bouncing, so the presence of one or more extra hitboxes on the field at one time is extremely useful. Bouncing tires can be used to gain frame advantage on shield, cover dodge options and delay hitboxes so you can get in a hit of your own.

Tire combos are legit, and in depth exploration would be useful. However, the main use of tires IMO is for zoning, covering options and generally for defense. Tire combos at the moment are very situational and unlikely (I look forward to the day when legit tire combos are bread n' butter status!).

@DMG: I agree with you when you say footstools with tires are awesome. The most reliable footstool I've found is one following an aerial tire hit, though guaranteed follow ups from that position are very difficult. A tire grab fullhop Dair seems to be the best way for footstooling if you want to initiate a tire lock. Wario's tire throws and aerial mobility come into play here, I have done a bit of testing with this myself. You can lock with the tire initially, regrab the tire with a Nair and lock them again with Nair2. Extremely difficult, precise timing needed. Wario's 7 frame jump makes it neigh impossible for a linear tire lock combo, so I think that a shorthop tire Dthrow -> InstaDthrow will be the starting point, but after that (assuming you are going in one direction) the opponent is fairly far away. A dthrow glide toss would probably work here, but again more testing is needed to be sure.

Adding SDI will be fun haha.
 

Lord Chair

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#17
Note that while SDI does not turn tires locks moot, it greatly decreases the chance of setting one up in the first place. Footstools are noted as well as the fact that dair guarantees one, but dair is the thing that's preventable simply with proper SDI.

Aside of sorta guaranteed footstools, Wario cannot reliably force techchases. Situations like forcing a tech chase by knocking shielding opponents off a platform are less likely to happen if Wario also has to attend his tires, having both a tire at hand as well as creating a pratfall is rather unrealistic.
 

TheReflexWonder

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#18
How much time do people get to SDI when hit by a tire? I imagine the amount changes with the amount of damage dealt.

The positioning of certain platforms may make it easier to force a pratfall after certain moves. I could see it working fairly well on Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar, for instance, maybe after a Bite.

Does D-Throw ever put an opponent into tumble animation?
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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#19
Dthrow never puts anyone into tumble animation. It will send them farther away from you the more damage they have accumulated though.
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
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#20
When I get back from my hiatus in Socal, I'll test this info for you


If someone else has frame advance and wants to work on it before then, be my guest :)
 

| Big D |

Smash Master
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#22
You get 7 frames of SDI with Wario's tire, regardless of percent.


Frame 1: Up + left on Analogue
Frame 2: Up + right on Cstick + (Up + left) on analogue stick
Frame 3: empty or up on analogue stick, empty on cstick
Frame 4: Up + right on Analogue stick
Frame 5: Up + left on Cstick + (Up + right) on analogue stick
Frame 6: empty or up on analogue stick, empty on cstick

For some reason, those didn't work for me

control stick up-left (hold)
c-stick up-right
reset
control stick up-left (hold)
c-stick up-right

This did work.

From my experience, when trying to set up a tire lock, the enemy never air dodges anyways, they can be set up easily. The tricky part is continuing the lock.
What seems to work is jump dthdrow > air dodge > dthrow >grab tire > reset

Airdodging and dropping the tire at the same time works really well, as the tire is dropped above your head and allows for Wario to land before the tire, allowing for fsmashes or grabs.

Running away and fthrow glide toss the tire at your opponent catches them off guard, allowing for fsmashes.

Bite > dthrow glide toss > grab is good at many percents, allowing for wafts.

Just some stuff that can be used as mix ups for when a tire is in hand.
 
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