Wario is worse (from what i played) conjecture*

[warioismymain]

Having the bike take 8-10 seconds to respond is already a nerf to his edgeguard as well as his recovery. He has very few kill moves. Dash attacksends at an awkward angle. His tilts are about the same. Ariel's are all faster but considering how every character got similar speed changes its negligible. And since jablock/footstool mechanics have changed he has almost no true combos. He still has up air combos though. His air mobility does seem increased. Edgeguarding is also more effective in this game but I guess you should just op to save bike for edgeguarding rather than approaching and just go deep for the guard.

 

[Rakurai]

I'm going to assume he can't use his bike tires as weapons still, though I was hearing the bike respawn time was closer to four seconds like in Brawl, and that you can double bike if the timer runs out while you're still airborne from the initial bike.

But yeah, I got the impression he wasn't going to be much different from Smash 4 for what little footage I saw of him, which isn't a good thing since the engine changes either don't benefit him much (His aerial frame data was already good), or hurt him (No guaranteed footstool combos or jab resets is bad).

 

[aleckermit]

Chomping fighters now heals him (2% in doubles), Nair has a better hitbox, Fair can kill, dash attack can kill, his waft can be angled, f-smash is a viable move now, and his air speed is definitely a little faster.

Dash becoming a kill move instead of a tripping/edge-guard tool is probably an equal trade (though I will really miss consecutively dash attacking someone who doesn't know that it sends them backwards) . Fair becoming a high% kill option is especially good for edgeguarding.

I think Wario will be about as good as in 4. Earlier kills, but probably less combo potential.

 

[TaranTr]

Chomping fighters now heals him (2% in doubles), Nair has a better hitbox, Fair can kill, dash attack can kill, his waft can be angled, f-smash is a viable move now, and his air speed is definitely a little faster.

Dash becoming a kill move instead of a tripping/edge-guard tool is probably an equal trade (though I will really miss consecutively dash attacking someone who doesn't know that it sends them backwards) . Fair becoming a high% kill option is especially good for edgeguarding.

I think Wario will be about as good as in 4. Earlier kills, but probably less combo potential.

yes i hope so, that dash attack looks great, wario is a bit hard to master, but once you do it is awesome, and that healing chomp thing, wario is going to be lit!

 

[MERPIS]

Chomping fighters now heals him (2% in doubles), Nair has a better hitbox, Fair can kill, dash attack can kill, his waft can be angled, f-smash is a viable move now, and his air speed is definitely a little faster.

Dash becoming a kill move instead of a tripping/edge-guard tool is probably an equal trade (though I will really miss consecutively dash attacking someone who doesn't know that it sends them backwards) . Fair becoming a high% kill option is especially good for edgeguarding.

I think Wario will be about as good as in 4. Earlier kills, but probably less combo potential.

Does he have a combo throw now? Or at the very least, can dtilt or utilt combo now? I imagine nair still combos

 

[warioismymain]

Does he have a combo throw now? Or at the very least, can dtilt or utilt combo now? I imagine nair still combos

in smash 4 he could up tilt into up air at low percent. And down tilt twice to combo but they dont seem to changed

 

[warioismymain]

Chomping fighters now heals him (2% in doubles), Nair has a better hitbox, Fair can kill, dash attack can kill, his waft can be angled, f-smash is a viable move now, and his air speed is definitely a little faster.

Dash becoming a kill move instead of a tripping/edge-guard tool is probably an equal trade (though I will really miss consecutively dash attacking someone who doesn't know that it sends them backwards) . Fair becoming a high% kill option is especially good for edgeguarding.

I think Wario will be about as good as in 4. Earlier kills, but probably less combo potential.

I dont know about chomp in singles but yeah it heals equal to how many chomps you get before they mash out. I didnt notice any waft angling. Nor did I notice his f smash being better. And its extremely difficult to actually land nair sourspot waft because the better sweet spot hitbox. Which I consider a nerf. And seeing as how now you can do anything out of dashes I dont see using his lagg dash attack when you an get super punished. This isn't the final game but I'm still optimistic. I'll play him regardless.

 

[C-G]

Alright, I been dissecting videos and there are a few, key things you guys should know (saving best for last).

#1 Dash attack REALLY kills. In a recent video, it sends Chrom at 67% out a decent ways. And it straight deletes Wolf who was at 150% like he got hit with a Fsmash and the move was stale at that point. This is, however, for the beginning of the move. The longer Wario travels, the softer the move becomes. I'd estimate it kills at around 115% or so. This will become very important later.

#2 Usmash's Hitbox has gone full Mario. I now no longer stops at like 70% of the arc. It should have a metter time hitting people in front of him

#3 Nair's hitbox is not exactly better per say, but if you all remember, the first hit of nair came out at frame 4, the soft hit at 15, and NOTHING inbetween, making it an easy disrespect and tough to use. Now, the Frame 4 Hard hit last the entire spin animation until the soft hit comes out. This makes it a much, MUCH more oppressive tool.

#4 The universal buff to jumpsquat means his OOS game is on point. Aerial out of shield is something to really fear from this man.

And lastly and most importantly (and I am not exaggerating when I say this is a game changer






#5

FAIR

TRIPS

I've seen this happen twice. Once to a Ness who was recovering from PK Fire, and once when a Chrom whiffed a Fair. The Chrom was at 63% when this happened, so I don't think we have a DK Dtilt situation where it stops tripping at percents where you could land kill confirms. There are two things that could cause this to occur. In both cases, the opponent was in the endframes of a move, and Wario hits them square in the head. Ness was hit from an OOS reversal and Wario landed when Ness was on the floor. Chrom was hit from an already aerial Wario, and Wario was able to act while Chrom was still in the slipping animation. In the Ness Scenario, you might be able to connect an Usmash or Dsmash with the amount of available time. In the Chrom scenario, Fsmash easily, maybe even a semi-charged Usmash or Dsmash. DEFINITELY Waft in either circumstance

 

[Supalji]

I played as him & I personally like how he plays better. F-smash is better, can connect my tilts & aerials better. Cant wait to play more if him tomorrow

 

[C-G]

I played as him & I personally like how he plays better. F-smash is better, can connect my tilts & aerials better. Cant wait to play more if him tomorrow

If you're going tomorrow, can you test some things for me?

1) The Fair tripping thing. Based on my data, it's most likely to occur when you hit with the beginning frames of fair on a grounded opponent. Can you test for consistency?

2) Kill potential of Dash attack. I'd like to know more about when it can kill.

3) The same thing above, but for Ftilt.

 

[MERPIS]

#5

FAIR

TRIPS

I've seen this happen twice. Once to a Ness who was recovering from PK Fire, and once when a Chrom whiffed a Fair. The Chrom was at 63% when this happened, so I don't think we have a DK Dtilt situation where it stops tripping at percents where you could land kill confirms. There are two things that could cause this to occur. In both cases, the opponent was in the endframes of a move, and Wario hits them square in the head. Ness was hit from an OOS reversal and Wario landed when Ness was on the floor. Chrom was hit from an already aerial Wario, and Wario was able to act while Chrom was still in the slipping animation. In the Ness Scenario, you might be able to connect an Usmash or Dsmash with the amount of available time. In the Chrom scenario, Fsmash easily, maybe even a semi-charged Usmash or Dsmash. DEFINITELY Waft in either circumstance

Wait how is this that big of a change for him..? I can't really see it especially since its on the sour spot of fair. Is it 100% of the time or is it pure chance? So many questions ech

 

[C-G]

Wait how is this that big of a change for him..? I can't really see it especially since its on the sour spot of fair. Is it 100% of the time or is it pure chance? So many questions ech

In both circumstances, it was on the main part of Fair, not the sour spot/sex kick. The first active frames.

The reason it's a big deal is because not only is bobbing and weaving with fair our bread and butter neutral, but Wario in general has a hard time killing as none of his neutral tools have good KO power or setup potential (especially given how poor a hitbox and DI dependent Nair was). Having Fair trip solves both.

EDIT: Not to mention in Smash 4 Wario's only reliable kill move had a timer, even though his Usmash and Fsmash were kill moves. Being able to confirm into one of those reduces the stress of needing to rely on Waft

 

[MERPIS]

In both circumstances, it was on the main part of Fair, not the sour spot/sex kick. The first active frames.

The reason it's a big deal is because not only is bobbing and weaving with fair our bread and butter neutral, but Wario in general has a hard time killing as none of his neutral tools have good KO power or setup potential (especially given how poor a hitbox and DI dependent Nair was). Having Fair trip solves both.

EDIT: Not to mention in Smash 4 Wario's only reliable kill move had a timer, even though his Usmash and Fsmash were kill moves. Being able to confirm into one of those reduces the stress of needing to rely on Waft

So is it a guarenteed trip or is it just a gimmick like DK’s dtilt tripping, or do we even know yet? Also I can kinda see this now since fair’s sweetspot apparently kills at a good percent now.

Also wont it be kind of awkward fishing for the sour spot?

 

[C-G]

So is it a guarenteed trip or is it just a gimmick like DK’s dtilt tripping, or do we even know yet? Also I can kinda see this now since fair’s sweetspot apparently kills at a good percent now.

Impossible to tell until we get to the lab. Very little of the Wario footage shows him using Fair on grounded foes since there's so much chaos and since people are testing all the old stuff. There is footage of him hitting with Fair and not causing trip, but in the instances I saw it was the soft hit of nair.

RE DK's Dtilt: It was a gimmick since it stopped tripping when it would have been useful for kill setups. This has proven to still work at percents where Waft could kill, so I'd say even if it's purely random we're likely to get more out of it than DK ever did.

 

[MERPIS]

Impossible to tell until we get to the lab. Very little of the Wario footage shows him using Fair on grounded foes since there's so much chaos and since people are testing all the old stuff. There is footage of him hitting with Fair and not causing trip, but in the instances I saw it was the soft hit of nair.

RE DK's Dtilt: It was a gimmick since it stopped tripping when it would have been useful for kill setups. This has proven to still work at percents where Waft could kill, so I'd say even if it's purely random we're likely to get more out of it than DK ever did.

Might that be due to the fact that DK’s dtilt eventually launches the opponent where as with wario’s fair it doesnt launch make the opponent leave the ground until higher percents? Also I tested this on ike and he didnt start leaving the ground until 82% so we MIGHT get something from this assuming wario can fsmash fast enough

 

[C-G]

Might that be due to the fact that DK’s dtilt eventually launches the opponent where as with wario’s fair it doesnt launch make the opponent leave the ground until higher percents? Also I tested this on ike and he didnt start leaving the ground until 82% so we MIGHT get something from this assuming wario can fsmash fast enough

Oh? You tested this in the demo? 82% should still be enough to get something.

Indeed, I made mention of both the DK Dtilt situation and what we might be able to convert off it in my original post. Basically, we should be able to get pretty much anything off a trip due to fastfalling and sheer frame advantage. Even if Fsmash is out of reach, Usmash or Dash attack should be feasible.

 

[MERPIS]

Oh? You tested this in the demo? 82% should still be enough to get something.

Indeed, I made mention of both the DK Dtilt situation and what we might be able to convert off it in my original post. Basically, we should be able to get pretty much anything off a trip due to fastfalling and sheer frame advantage. Even if Fsmash is out of reach, Usmash or Dash attack should be feasible.

No I tested this in smash 4 I’m just assuming the knockback of it is the same. 82% is still good even on a heavy. Do you know how many frames advantage we get on it? Or at least an approximation?

 

[C-G]

No I tested this in smash 4 I’m just assuming the knockback of it is the same. 82% is still good even on a heavy. Do you know how many frames advantage we get on it? Or at least an approximation?

It depends on fastfall and execution and how long the opponent is tripped up for. For example, take the two scenarios I saw them

With the Ness one (0:12), Wario had less frame advantage since he did it OOS. So not a lot of time, but should be some. In the Chrom one(2:04), he does it close to the ground and has a lot more time. Wario's already Dash Attacking when Chrom's bouncing.

 

[MERPIS]

It depends on fastfall and execution and how long the opponent is tripped up for. For example, take the two scenarios I saw them

With the Ness one (0:12), Wario had less frame advantage since he did it OOS. So not a lot of time, but should be some. In the Chrom one(2:04), he does it close to the ground and has a lot more time. Wario's already Dash Attacking when Chrom's bouncing.

the second one is probably a lot more likely so that makes it look actually really legit. If its as good as I think it is and as you make it out to be, then this could easily bump wario up a tier, like they don't even slide away they just plop their rears down on the ground when he hits them.

 

[Rakurai]

That fair looks dirty as heck if it doesn't even knock back grounded opponents now since it's always been Wario's preferred poking tool and now he can get a huge reward off of connecting it at seemingly any percent.

 

[MERPIS]

That fair looks dirty as heck if it doesn't even knock back grounded opponents now since it's always been Wario's preferred poking tool and now he can get a huge reward off of connecting it at seemingly any percent.

Ye I looked at the footage and it looked like chrom slipped on the banana peel. Same animation too.

 

[C-G]

I found footage of Wario's Bair causing a trip. Worth noting that, like the last three, the trip came out when hitting someone in lag frames. Speculation, but I wonder if this means it's a counterhit mechanic.

 

[Rakurai]

I feel like the fact that he's basically immune to projectile camping thanks to eating projectiles both healing him substantially and potentially charging with the waft is going to be rather huge for him in the meta, especially when it works on physical projectiles like Link's arrows and all of the Belmont's stuff.

It doesn't fix his issues with disjoints, but Ultimate's better grounded movement might at least help him get in due to the swordfighters generally having worse frame data on their ground attacks.

 

[MERPIS]

I feel like the fact that he's basically immune to projectile camping thanks to eating projectiles both healing him substantially and potentially charging with the waft is going to be rather huge for him in the meta, especially when it works on physical projectiles like Link's arrows and all of the Belmont's stuff.

It doesn't fix his issues with disjoints, but Ultimate's better grounded movement might at least help him get in due to the swordfighters generally having worse frame data on their ground attacks.

Eh there's are some characters that can throw them out so fast wario can't really keep up, villager and young link are good examples.

 

[Rakurai]

I'm convinced Wario is still good after Gluttony tweeted that he thinks he's high tier.

That footage showed that Wario's often neglected down throw now does a whopping 14%, and the bike also looks even more amazing as a neutral tool then it thought was, especially with it killing cleanly like that even off a light throw.

 

[C-G]

Corkscrew seems to be a pretty good edge guarding tool. Good knockback power

 

[$.A.F.]

Having the bike take 8-10 seconds to respond is already a nerf to his edgeguard as well as his recovery. He has very few kill moves. Dash attacksends at an awkward angle. His tilts are about the same. Ariel's are all faster but considering how every character got similar speed changes its negligible. And since jablock/footstool mechanics have changed he has almost no true combos. He still has up air combos though. His air mobility does seem increased. Edgeguarding is also more effective in this game but I guess you should just op to save bike for edgeguarding rather than approaching and just go deep for the guard.

This didn’t age well.....

 

[MERPIS]

This didn’t age well.....

Terribly