War Room: The new chapter in Ike's matchup discussion (last update 11/21/09)

[-RedX-]

So it's stay away when in the lead and make him approach basically.
Gotcha -.-

 

[Teh Brettster]

Sort of.
The match-up has a lot of avoiding and searching for openings.

 

[Guilhe]

Let's do Sonic next.

Not yet, both Zelda and Diddy don’t have guides and stage counterpick and banning articles. Your guide on Diddy is almost complete Niddo, just missing some aspects of the matchup as some of our own board has indicated. We need to solve at least one of those two characters to move on.

As for Sonic, I would recommend you don't focus on controling the stage as much as in other matchups. Stay on movement so that Sonic can't pressure you.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I love this match-up. It's so much fun to play out IMO. While it's very momentum based, both characters can easily break momentum going against them and change it to their favor. I personally believe this either 5-5, or 45-55 from Ike's prospective, but lean heavily towards 5-5.

At first glance, one would believe this match-up is Diddy Kong's favor. He has faster attacking speed, a projectile, faster movement, and the bananas, why wouldn't it look that way? However, this is not the case.

While Diddy Kong has the advantage in speed, he looses quite heavily in range, disjointed hitboxes and power. Ike's Fair effectively shuts down all of Diddy Kong's aerial approaches with room to spare, maybe even Nair stops all of Diddy Kong's aerials but I'm not positive on that one. Fair also beats out Diddy Kong's ground approaches while remaining safe thanks to IASA frames.

Of course, people are probably asking "Why the heck would a smart Diddy Kong approach Ike? He can just stay back and play the peanut spamming, banana controling game and force Ike to approach." And the answer to that is the fact Ike can also take control of at least one banana rather easily, which disrupts Diddy Kong's game plan. Think about what happens if a banana is on the ground, and both Ike and Diddy go for it. Ike's dash attack comes out relatively quick, propels him forwards a step, and hit a very large range in front of himself with a lingering hitbox. This allows Ike to at least compete for Banana control, or punish Diddy Kong for grabbing the banana first.

One might also point out "What on earth can Ike do with a banana? It locks him to just B moves, which are all VERY situational. Again, this is true, but Ike can indeed use the banana effectively. First of all, he could just throw it downwards onto the ground and play keepaway. Not the most effective thing, but it's an option. Secondly, he could just throw the at Diddy Kong. This can work, but Diddy could also just catch the banana. It's a gamble, but a very dangerous one in Diddy's case. If he gets hit by it, Ike will punish him for it, but hard. Of course, Diddy isn't exactly the easiest target to hit in the first place... Another option is assuming something like Dash Attack was used, and Diddy is off stage, in which case could use it in an attempt to gimp Diddy. Hey, a free item to screw up Diddy's jetpack is a free item.

But Ike's best, if situational option is DACIT. I think most Ikes have seen the video where Kirk DACIT'd with a Diddy's banana, hit him, and then nailed him with a reverse Fsmash as he flew by. (A link would be nice incase one of the Diddy Kong players hasn't seen it yet) Ike can do many things out of DACIT: regrab the banana, jab to pivot grab to Bthrow off the stage, Usmash, Fsmash, Ftilt, Utilt, Counter, all of that while sliding extremely far. The only down side is the running start required to get it going, which is thankfully not very far, but enough to give Diddy Kong a small heads up. There is also the possibility that you end up sliding into one of Diddy's attacks if you get predictable. Like with everything else, use moderation. Enough to keep him on his toes, but not enough he knows what you're going to do.

Moving on pass the bananas: Diddy Kong can gimp Ike fairly easily, but what else is new. >_> QD is blah blah blah jump in front of it, Aether is drop a banana into it/use an attack with at least some amount of disjointedness. Ike can somewhat gimp Diddy's Rocket Pack easily, as if it needs charging it gives Ike enough time to set up for a Dair or walk-off Fair. Just watch out for the flying run away rockets. They can potentially stage spike you, or send you farther away from the stage.

Jab is effective against Diddy Kong as usual, stops his flying peanuts, clashes with a bunch of his attacks, ect. Ike will likely KO Diddy Kong with something like Jab -> Utilt, Full Jab combo -> edgeguard, something out of DACIT, Uair due to the fact Diddy Kong can't do much if Ike's below him or Diddy Kong making a mistake. Diddy Kong will likely get his kills with gimps, or one of his smashes, though those kills won't be until later %s.

For stages, ban FD primarily. Diddy Kong simply has too much control there with the lack of platforms. Smashville should be avoided for the same reasons. For neutrals, I usually aim for Pokemon Stadium. The changing of the stage can really disrupt banana positioning, and I like to DACIT during the stage transformation while the smoke is along the ground. Not only does it kinda help hide the fact I have a banana in my hand, the Diddy Kong player may (hopefully) be not 100% focused on Ike, but on how he's going to lay out his bananas for this stage, or how there positioning maybe be changed. That last bit is all speculation on my part obviously. Battlefield as also usable, yays for a superior platform game.

For CPs, Pirate Ship is a no brainer. Avoid something like Brinstar or Norfair (Unless the Countering in the lava isn't considered stalling, in which case go for it. Diddy Kong can control the top platforms while the lava is in the way and screw Ike over more then the lava will screw Diddy Kong's game over. You could be gutsy and try PS2. The wind and electric fields would seriously hamper Diddy Kong's game (IMO, correct me if I'm wrong). Rainbow Cruise is also a good option for Ike, as he should be winning the air battles due to his range. Delfino is also a usable CP here. Waterspiking, shifting platforms to help against Diddy's banana game, ect.

What am I missing in that? There is only so much I can add, I don't have THAT much tournament experience. >_> Changes are in bold.

 

[Palpi]

I took ADHD to delfino and he 0-deathed me on wall with 2 nanerz. I was doing well before that too

 

[Nidtendofreak]

>_>

I thought everyone knew about Diddy Kong's banana lock and knew enough not to let a wall be on one side of you, and Diddy on the other side.

 

[Guilhe]

With some Photoshop and CorelDRAW I've made us an matchup chart! Opinions?

 

[TX7Killian]

Background looks very nice.
The pics of the chars could be better.
You should take the brawl pics from smashwiki imo.
anyway it looks very nice.

 

[Nysyarc]

I like the picture choices personally, seeing the Brawl ones all the time is boring. Good stuff Guilhe.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Do we still need a Zelda MU summery?

I could take a crack at it during the Thanksgiving break if we do Olimar next. Some people on that board seem to think that the Ike MU isn't as bad for us as we currently have it...I've seen 6-4 and 55-45. O_o I think I had a bit of a heart attack at that...

 

[san.]

In my opinion, Olimar's like 65:35, *maybe better. I stll need to think about it (mostly thinking how olimar does on CPs). Someone said 55:45? o_O

 

[Nidtendofreak]

IIRC, yes. Look at the newest two pages in their MU discussion. Unless I got it mixed up with a different MU.

 

[benaji261!]

In my opinion, Olimar's like 65:35, *maybe better. I stll need to think about it (mostly thinking how olimar does on CPs). Someone said 55:45? o_O

lol 55:45 with Olimar... definitely leaning towards that 65:35. That's believable.

 

[san.]

If olimar's not familiar with the matchup, the Ike can obliterate the olimar. Olimar has to camp and be relentless about it the WHOLE match, because if Ike gets a jab in, that can set up for a lot of bad scenarios for the olimar. Combat walk, pivot grabs(-->dash attack) and weird offstage shenanigans and being open to powerful smashes.

Is olimar one of the characters Ike can't bthrow-->dash attack? If not, watch out for that, too. Ike's good side-dodge is a saving grace even if it's only a slight one.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

IIRC, A_B said you can't Dash Attack out of Bthrow to Olimar.

 

[Guilhe]

Do we still need a Zelda MU summery?

Yes, no more skipping.

 

[benaji261!]

If olimar's not familiar with the matchup, the Ike can obliterate the olimar. Olimar has to camp and be relentless about it the WHOLE match, because if Ike gets a jab in, that can set up for a lot of bad scenarios for the olimar. Combat walk, pivot grabs(-->dash attack) and weird offstage shenanigans and being open to powerful smashes.

Is olimar one of the characters Ike can't bthrow-->dash attack? If not, watch out for that, too. Ike's good side-dodge is a saving grace even if it's only a slight one.

What I meant to say was I have crap experience with good Olimars so MY MU would be like 65-35. XD

 

[Nelo Vergil]

I have very, very little experience in it, but 65:35 is about right (Id lean more to 60:40 though). Even though him camping can be a nightmare, its easy to take advantage of his no grab armor, and if you see a purple Pikmin, I believe you can outrange that with Fair and such, so thats your best time to strike. Olimar also has very little lower defense, get below, and then try a Usmash/Utilt if you want the direct approach, but personally Id wait to the side of him as he nears the ground, then start jabbing a storm after you capitalize on a whiffed airdodge/Nair/Fair/Bair/w/e Olimar does to avoid his fate. Off stage is where you want him though, simple Fair use, or if hes higher up, air dodge/whistle reading will lead to a dead Olimar. If he grabs you and looks for one of his stupid combo's, it becomes a little different, not much can be done on our end on something like that. Just keep Olimar above you or offstage where hes far more limited, and dont ever whiff anything that'll leave you on the ground.

 

[Saki-]

The Matchup thing looks nice Slayez
The only thing I remember that was beneficial about the Oli matchup was Kirk's frame date on the nair on Oli's shield grabs.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Because we won't get another MU discussion until there is a write up for one of the older ones (and you guys are all lazy bums)

Zelda

A battle of two powerhouses...except Ike is heavier more disjointed, more range, and a lot better jab. :D Either 55-45 or 6-4 Ike's Advantage.

First aspect to tackle: Din's Fire. Buffed from Melee, still fairly crappy. Din's Fire is easy to powershield. Watch Zelda's arm. When it moves, shield. Ta da. Din's Fire to our Aether? That can hurt. A lot. Another thing to note that Din's Fire will clash with Ike's body during Ike's dash attack. Meaning that at the right range/situation, Ike can Dash Attack while Zelda is using Din's Fire, swing, hit Zelda, and possibly have the ending lag canceled by the clash. More likely then not though, you'll just send the Princess flying away. Assuming she even uses Din's Fire in the first place.

Our Air Game > Zelda's, as sword > leg. Doesn't mean we shouldn't fear it though. Her Uair is a serious pain (stronger then ours), and getting lightning kicked is this game's version of an aerial smash attack. Her Bair is like, frame 5 and hits harder then a donkey. If her back is to you, expect this. Even out of shield it can happen and send you flying away. Her Dair spike isn't anything to laugh at. It will kill you quite eagerly, and her Nair is a multihitting, shield poking pain. Luckily, it has fairly short range, at least in comparison to Ike.

We have a faster ground game, but Zelda's is (sad as it sounds) safer outside of our jab. Dsmash is frame 5 and can send us into our dead zone unless we tech it, Fsmash is fairly safe on block. Usmash you better learn how to SDI it the first time because once it's stale the hits deal less then 1% damage, thus making SDI impossible. Her tilts are faster then Ike's by a tad IIRC, and are quite strong. If for some odd reason you decide to use Counter against Zelda, it can KO her due to how strong her moves are, but I wouldn't recommend it. However, her jab is slow to start up. Ours isn't. Abuse it. Combat Walk her if you get the chance. Dtilt is also a pain. If you trip from a Dtilt hit, you're going to take a lot of damage in a Dtilt lock. Possibly finished by Dsmash. Ow.

Both recoveries are "lol gimp land", but I think Ike's has the slight edge in this match up, simply because we have two (if crappy) options, while Zelda has to use the one option she has...which means you can predict where she's going to appear most of the time easily (the ledge). But she has more range. Take your pick, both stink.

Stages, Pirate Ship as usual is good, but watch out for her Dair. It's a strong spike. Delfino can work well because I believe Zelda's Up B doesn't like the floating platform that much. And of course there is water. I think these two characters for the most part like similar stages...maybe just stick to what ever is your personal best stage in this match-up, though I would avoid Castle Siege. Zelda's smash attacks + lingering hitboxes on statues = ow.

When it comes to neutrals, I would actually pick FD as my goal. Zelda can have a nastly platform game between her Usmash, Uair, and Utilt, or a drop through Bair/Fair, so BF would be quite a gamble. On FD though, we can space her a lot easier. Din's Fire isn't much of a threat. Both FD and PS1's lips can screw over her recovery, more so then Ike's, so that's always a plus. Same idea with Lylat, though there is that platform issue again. If you can't get FD, go for PS1 or Smashville.

But lets be honest: this MU isn't likely to happen. Zelda can change into Sheik and have the advantage. But hey, you never know. I've already met one person who will use Zelda and not Sheik, so there are those crazy people out there.

I demand Olimar next. >_> <_<

 

[Ussi]

Where did you find that Niddo o.o?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I made it from a previous post of my in the Zelda MU topic. If you compare the two, you can see some of the same sentences. But this is like, 4x the size.

 

[Somebody Else]

Question; what effect does Ike's Jab have on pikmin that are flying towards you? I hear it clashes with his FSmash/DSmash? And side-B?

 

[Guilhe]

Time to update this ****! My Zelda's write-up is finished, and the next character shall be Kirby.

P.S.: Did you know that Ike can jab Zelda out of Fsmash before she has the opportunity to retain her neutral position?

 

[Mr. Doom]

Sweet, I'll link you to my post.

[LINK]