Data Wah Wah Wah : The Wario Matchup thread

[Snorley]

From experience with A LOT of friendlies with a friend of mine, Mewtwo's air game is just too good. His neutral air is a wonderful tool, especially when used to stop bikes. His spacing is also quite dangerous, especially with his F-tilt.

Furthermore, gimping Mewtwo is quite the chore; he can recover quite well with his second jump and up air.

(This is my first time giving advice on matchups, so I could be wrong here.)

if it makes you feel better i think you are extremely accurate as i have played a couple of decent mewtwos inn Sfl. feel free to always share your opinion dude we wont bite you (get it)

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Why do Mewtwo's almost always fail to recover if we use the late Dash Attack at the ledge while they're using their double jump?

 

[C0rvus]

Mewtwo has an awful ledge snap on his second jump. Unless he uses teleport to recover, his head sticks above the ledge. That's pretty exploitable, but I wouldn't count on experienced players to let it happen.

 

[CoveredNMoney]

How are you guys dealing with Marth/Lucina? Or just sword using characters in general?

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

How are you guys dealing with Marth/Lucina? Or just sword using characters in general?

BIKE BIKE BIKE BIKE. Otherwise I cannot touch them.

 

[Tayman]

This is with sword character in general, i just imagine their sword sticking out at me the whole time and go in and out of their range this maybe the reason that i have only loses to marth and Lucian once or twice.

 

[CoveredNMoney]

This is with sword character in general, i just imagine their sword sticking out at me the whole time and go in and out of their range this maybe the reason that i have only loses to marth and Lucian once or twice.

Yeah the marth/Lucina match up kinda feels like the brawl match up. Without the grab release of course thankfully lol. I just try to not mess up my spacing. From my experience most of the matches I won/lost were due to poor spacing.

 

[Axel311]

How are you guys dealing with Marth/Lucina? Or just sword using characters in general?

Gotta space well. The way I think about my spacing against disjoint characters as Wario is to have a goal of staying as close to them as possible while still being outside of their sword's range.

And the best way to deal with Cloud is to not play Wario, because that matchup is stupid. In my opinion all other sword characters are even-ish though.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

1. Cloud may have the best matchup spread in the game, he has a good projectile and is practically designed to destroy Wario, Jigglypuff, Mario, Luigi (I could go on for a while)
2. Wario against a Swordfighter is a battle that requires Bike desperately, it's your only way to approach (Unless you are facing Mii Swordfighter, just laugh then)

 

[Axel311]

1. Cloud may have the best matchup spread in the game, he has a good projectile and is practically designed to destroy Wario, Jigglypuff, Mario, Luigi (I could go on for a while)
2. Wario against a Swordfighter is a battle that requires Bike desperately, it's your only way to approach (Unless you are facing Mii Swordfighter, just laugh then)

I disagree with #2. The better I get the more I realize approaching with bike is not very good against good players who know the matchup, it's outprioritized by most everything. Sword characters can just use an aerial or use a smash and get free damage. Yeah you can bike if you catch them in lag or make a read but it's really not a dependable approach option. If you watch the high level Warios like Reflex, they rarely approach with bike.

 

[C0rvus]

Seconding that Bike isn't good. Hell, it's a free Witch Time. Not a move for the neutral. Although in tech chasing and advantage... I think it's got some use. Midair Bike > dair is a kill combo I've seen Tweek use many-a-time. Can't think of a way to reliably set it up. Maybe if you bait or read an air dodge? Aerial Bike > Waft also works from what I've seen.

 

[Axel311]

Played against quite a bit more mewtwos lately. Several good ones on anther's and one good one several times in live tourney. I think it's something like +1 in Mewtwo's favor. But only because of waft. Miss waft and it's more like +2 in Mewtwo's favor. His buffs are real. Mewtwo has strong aerials, nair and fair are godly. Mewtwo has a much better neutral. We lose pretty hard on the ground and in the air. Mewtwo can play passively and carefully and space Wario out with Shadow balls and aerials. Approaching is really tough. Wario really can't take advantage of edgeguarding either. Even with bike, mewtwo can just jump into it and use his reflector which really negates Wario's normal bike edgeguarding tactics. Throwing bike at him is pretty useless. Mewtwo's up B makes him hard to edgeguard in general. Mewtwo/Wario are about the same in terms of mobility, but Mewtwo has a strong range advantage.

The only thing Wario really has going for him is Mewtwo being vulnerable to waft. His size and floatiness help make weak fair to waft easier to land especially I've noticed. And his weight means he dies at 30% or so center stage with rage.

EDIT:

After getting more experience lately and studying the MU more, I have to revise and push this one to more like +2 in Mewtwo's favor, or 60:40. Mewtwo just keeps Wario out really well and I feel you're mostly forced to approach because of shadow ball. Can you outcamp him? I don't see it but I'd love to hear more opinions on that.

Mewtwo wins neutral by quite a lot. The range disadvantage hurts really badly. His aerials are kind of free on Wario, wario can't challenge mewtwo at all in the air. His nair just auto wins over every one of wario's moves it feels like and mewtwo can kill wario pretty early. His fair is ridiculously strong and his upthrow killthrow is braindead good. Get grabbed at 120 or so and you're dead for sure off the top no matter where you are on stage. If you get grabbed on platforms or if mewtwo has high rage you can die even earlier.

I'm not even convinced wario wins offstage. Seems pretty even. Shadowball can knock you off bike and mewtwo's drag down nair shenanigans offstage needs to be watched out for. And we really can't edgeguard him. Like I said before bike edguarding is mostly negated by mewtwo's ability to use reflector when coming back to stage. About all you can do is try and place a lingering dair just off the lip of the stage to try and catch the 2 frame. Or try and catch the high recovery with an aerial. But mewtwo is really really hard to gimp in my experience. The teleport recovery really makes it difficult.

I feel like it's one of those MU where wario gets outcamped but at the same time can't approach. I really don't see what Wario can do against mewtwo. Mewtwo has so many options to kill wario and keep him out, whereas wario struggles to get in, finish stocks or challenge mewtwo anywhere. You kinda have to hope they mess up their spacing so wario can have a chance to get in and land a waft. It's looking pretty bad from my end. I'm thinking it could potentially be Wario's 2nd worst MU behind Cloud. I would love to hear opinions from high level warios, I'm only a mid level wario so these opinions just reflect my experiences at my level of play.

 

[xDantieLx]

I frequently play with a friend who mains ZSS, and I can easily say that the matchup is not as bad as you guys think.

• First things first: You have to play more defensive and passive.
• ZSS can grab you off your bike, so try not to stay on it for too long. Use it more as a projectile.
• Chomping from above is great against ZSS, as she can't really do much about it if she can't react fast enough.
• As said before, PLAY DEFENSIVE. You should never really be the "aggravator". You should be doing most of your damage on punishes. Don't be hesitant to run away.
• Wario can evade the stun-gun very well, just practice it.
• Know when to use half-charged waft or full-charged waft. Using one of them in the right situation can win you games or vastly put games in your favor.
• Bike edgeguarding is really annoying for ZSS, abuse it.
• Just another tip: Ban FD immediately, ZSS likes that stage more than you.

I would say it is 40-60 in ZSS' favor at the worst. I just know the matchup very well in general.
But personally, it's 45-55, as I never really struggle against them.

If you try to chomp her from above she can just uptilt you xD
60-40 in her favor imo

 

[Waymas]

Gonna invite the Sheik, Diddy and Mewtwo mains to the discussion ;3

 

[Axel311]

any chance this thread will be brought back to life and we can get weekly discussions going?

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Fun Fact: We were temporarily the most inactive Board of Smash 4 Character Boards.

 

[atticusfinch7]

I need some advice fighting against Robin. Everything I shield seems unpunishable and I tend to trade with the aerials a lot (they seem to do over 13% damage...)

 

[Y2Kay]

boop~

https://smashboards.com/threads/mas...-thread-session-8-wario-ryu-10-2-10-9.438657/

 

[Sari]

Will this thread stay dead forever? It's been nearly 4 months since the last MU discussion.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Will this thread stay dead forever? It's been nearly 4 months since the last MU discussion.

Most of the MU Discussions were discussed in the Wario Discord group. Will it even continue here again? You never know.

 

[Axel311]

It would be nice if someone started running this thread again.

 

[Jayr]

Is this thread dead?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'd recommend going over to the Wario Discord server; that's pretty active and matchups get talked about a lot there.