Data Wah Wah Wah : The Wario Matchup thread

[Waymas]

So, i was thinking the other it will be an awesome idea if we discuss each character every 2 weeks plus everyone can contribute with any material you want (Videos, frames,experiences, etc,etc)

Since Smash 4 is still a new game therefore it is hard to determine MU's right now because the Meta hasn't really began evolving yet, but we're just starting.

Let's start with the Top Tier character at the moment..

Match-Up Scale:

100:0 - Nearly impossible to lose
90:10 - Massive Advantage​

Edit Post by Waymas

80:20 - Strong Advantage
70:30 - Moderate Advantage
60:40 - Slight Advantage
50:50 - Evenly Matched
40:60 - Slight Disadvantage
30:70 - Moderate Disadvantage
20:80 - Strong Disadvantage
10:90 - Massive Disadvantage
0:100 - Nearly impossible to win

​

ROSALINA - 50 - 50

Link to discussion : Rosalina MU

YOSHI - 45 - 55

Link to discussion : Yoshi MU

ZERO SUIT SAMUS - 45 - 55

Link to discussion : ZSS MU

SONIC - 50 - 50

Link to discussion: Sonic MU

LUIGI - 55-45

Link to discussion: Luigi MU

VILLAGER - 50-50

Link to discussion : Villager MU

FOX - 45-55

Link to discussion : Fox MU

MARIO - 45-55 and PIKACHU - 40 - 60

Link to discussion : Mario and Pika MU

FALCON 45-55 and NESS 45-55

Link to discussion : Falcon and Ness MU

META KNIGHT 45-55 and RYU 40-60

Link to discussion : MK and Ryu MU

PEACH 50-50 ROB 40-60 IKE 50-50

Link to discussion : Peach Rob and Ike MU

CLOUD 40-60 MEGAMAN 50-50 and TOON LINK 50-50

Link to discussion : Cloud Megaman and Toon Link MU


ROBIN 45-55 BAYONETTA 40-60 LUCARIO 50-50

Link to discussion : Robin Bayonetta and Lucario MU

DIDDY KONG SHEIK MEWTWO

Link to discussion : Diddy Kong Shiek and Mewto MU

 

[C4-]

I wouldnt say that this matchup is easy at all . I will say that wario has the tools necessary to deal with diddy but it requires a patient wait and bait type gameplay. diddy can pretty much make a wall with his fair which gives us almost no options because it has such high priority. OoS options are great against diddy especially if he doesn't space correctly with his aerials. OoS nair and fair after baiting an attack from diddy work well but require good timing as diddys fair has almost no landing lag. Utilizing warios bike to edge guard by either throwing it in the air by the ledge or off stage works really well against diddy, if he gets hit a single time below the stage by the bike its almost a guarenteed kill because he will be put in a position where it will be extremely hard to recover. Try to learn the diddys Side B habits, some diddys, even good ones, seem to use it atleast a bit and its pretty easy to punish if shielded or predicted.(OoS waft his Side B kick if you read it )

Stages to ban - Definintly halberd in my opinion, if you get a diddy kong with rage and get down throw on top of the plat form say bye bye to your stock at like 60%, overall the ceiling is extremely low which helps diddy secure some solid kills at lower percents.
Counter picks- Duck hunt seems to be an overall good stage to pick against diddy as the ceiling is very high allowing you to survive those down throw up airs at higher percents, also the closer horizontal blast zones help warios forward throw to kill at lower percents as well as all his kill moves ( being that wario seems to exclusively kill off the sides)
- Lylat also seems to be a good option for counterpicking as the plat forms help mess with diddys banana play and the ackward ledges can make it hard for him to recover.

 

[IWinToLose]

Good Diddy's definitely have the advantage. I'd say it's at least 60-40, possibly up to 66-33 in Diddy's favor. A single throw or banana hit from Diddy results in 14-40% damage. Wario can't do any type of damage output on Diddy and needs to hit him 2-4 times for every time Diddy hits Wario. Also, Wario loses the aerial battle as nothing Wario has can come close to contesting or punishing well spaced Diddy's SH FAirs.

Finally, Diddy's UAir will wreck Wario as he's descending. There's nothing the fat man can do about it except for avoid it which is increasingly difficult against better players. We all know the damage and KO potential of Diddy Kong's UAir. However, almost all characters have this problem against Diddy though so this isn't limited to just Wario.

Also, unless Diddy falls RIGHT on top of you, Oos Nair won't connect. Diddy's Bair is almost impossible to punish. I'm not sure about Oos Fair against Diddy's Fair but for some reason I don't think it will work.

 

[Antonykun]

Good Diddy's definitely have the advantage. I'd say it's at least 60-40, possibly up to 66-33 in Diddy's favor. A single throw or banana hit from Diddy results in 14-40% damage. Wario can't do any type of damage output on Diddy and needs to hit him 2-4 times for every time Diddy hits Wario. Also, Wario loses the aerial battle as nothing Wario has can come close to contesting or punishing well spaced Diddy's SH FAirs.

Finally, Diddy's UAir will wreck Wario as he's descending. There's nothing the fat man can do about it except for avoid it which is increasingly difficult against better players. We all know the damage and KO potential of Diddy Kong's UAir. However, almost all characters have this problem against Diddy though so this isn't limited to just Wario.

Also, unless Diddy falls RIGHT on top of you, Oos Nair won't connect. Diddy's Bair is almost impossible to punish. I'm not sure about Oos Fair against Diddy's Fair but for some reason I don't think it will work.

Please don't say stuff like 66:33 MU numbers go by increments of 5:5, anything lower is just nitpicking.

 

[IWinToLose]

Please don't say stuff like 66:33 MU numbers go by increments of 5:5, anything lower is just nitpicking.

Says the guy nitpicking xD

 

[Antonykun]

Says the guy nitpicking xD

Trust me when you see a lot of people arguing for pages about 0.5-1 point differences its more like nipping something in the bud.

 

[BugCatcherWill]

Actually, the bike doesn't block the bananas. You fall off the bike Mario Kart style. Wario can eat the bananas, though.

Personally, I think Chomp is Wario's biggest asset against Diddy as it trumps the Monkey Flip, heals himself if Diddy spams peanuts, and is also a great for ledge guarding.

What I love to do is catch a player in midair with the Chomp, then fall to a point where Wario can recover, thanks to his bike and stuff, but the opponent can't. Almost like Kirby's inhale-trolling. Whether it works on experienced Diddy's though...I need more trial and error with that.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Seconding that Wario's bike is an excellent tool as a throwable projectile. It's one of Wario's best ways to defeat Diddy. When given the opportunity, I usually set my bike and down smash throw to the opponent; The bike goes very far, and it's also quite hard for Diddy to avoid whilst aggressive approaching. Up Smash Bike Throw Grab Combos also do a lot of damage. It's worth noting that Wario has an easy time executing half farts against Diddy in my experience, as Diddy tends to space a lot with Fair and Bair. A simple short hop air dodge > fart/bite can work wonders against Diddy.

 

[IWinToLose]

I don't think the Bike is a good offensive tool against Diddy. It is incredibly easy to shield/avoid and puts Wario in a disadvantageous situation every time it's shielded or avoided. If Diddy steps forward and power shields it and Wario jumps off, Diddy can get an UAir punish. If Diddy reacts in time, he can do a SH FAir to snipe you off. Good Diddys should be able to consistently do this at most ranges. Bike can still be used sparingly against good Diddy's as a legitimate mix up. At very specific ranges your Bike can punish a dash in before Diddy can shield it if you read it perfectly. However, mistime/read this and you're likely to get punished. Likewise, the bike is a good tech chaser after sour spot dash attacks, downthrows, and other tech inducing situations.

I'm not sure about this but the bike might be guaranteed punishable after a perfect shield by OOS Bair from Diddy. Don't quote me on this but top tier players will be able to do this to you all day if this is possible.

Bite does no always trump Monkey Flip. At certain ranges (about 2-3 Wario lengths away), monkey flip will beat Bite. Also, be careful when eating Diddy's Banana as you are in a frame trap situation after eating it.

 

[FullMoon]

Hi, Wario Mains, we're going to discuss the Wario MU in the Greninja boards so we'd appreciate any sort of input: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...-bowser-2-23-3-2.369356/page-12#post-18645844

Just don't go riding the bike in there, there's a time and place for anything, but not now.

 

[Waymas]

Lets move to the next MU...Sheik...Ready? Set..Go!

 

[BugCatcherWill]

Hmm.....well Shiek's main tool gimping off the stage, which is hard to do because of Wario's bike recovery and such. Also she can combo really well from tilts and grabs into fairs. I'm pretty sure Wario's nair can interrupt these combos at mid-range percentages, but I'm not certain. That's all I got. Thoughts? Rebuttals? Insults?

 

[C4-]

Shiek is warios hardest matchup in my opinion. One if the reasons being is against a good shiek it is so hard to approach and typically your just fighting to get back onto the ground after a long fair/tilt string. I find that the best way to deal with the matchup is to not freak out at the fact that your at like 90% and she's still at 5 , when you get to a higher percent just Try your best to predict bouncing fish or bair as she's most likely going to get a kill off those two moves, I haven't tested it enough put it seems impossible to punish shiek if she hits your shield with a fair , her jab comes out quicker. After the fair than any of warios aerials and if she spaces right she'll be able to fair again before your aerial hits her. I feel like wario should be stacking up a lot of damage when shiek is on the ledge , utilize the bike to limit options wait for either a roll and punish or try and dash attack her if she just hangs on the ledge until the bike stops bouncing . Be very careful with placements of bite because her ftilt seems to beat a falling bite and In the air a fair will beat bite. Uptilt is a good option to when shiek is falling from above you as it can catch an airdodge with the weaker hit and it should have more priority than her nair ( fair shouldn't be much of a problem if she is above you). When riding the bike pop wheelies once in a while to catch any short hop fairs or nairs. That's all I can really think of right now, if anyone has any input on what we should be doing when shiek fairs on our shield let me know.

 

[Ridel]

Hmm.....well Shiek's main tool gimping off the stage, which is hard to do because of Wario's bike recovery and such. Also she can combo really well from tilts and grabs into fairs. I'm pretty sure Wario's nair can interrupt these combos at mid-range percentages, but I'm not certain. That's all I got. Thoughts? Rebuttals? Insults?

The N-Air is deceptive though I think it's probably a better option to try and DI out of the F-Airs. In regards to the Bike recovery I would suggest you always go high against Shiek and never try to snap to the ledge if possible. The reason being that you are not invisible or have any active hitbox's when jumping off the bike so she could B-Air you resulting in a stage spike. Though you can tech the stage if timed correctly it still will not put you in any favorable position. Though if you do decide to recover low then make sure to do a Ledge-Canceled Bike to ensure no lag upon landing.

 

[Locuan]

We are about to start the discussion on the Wario match-up on the Marth Match-Up Discussion Thread. It would be awesome if you could help us out!

 

[Waymas]

IMO Sheik might be one of our worst MU's, she can pretty much wall you all day long with fairs and bairs, the only think you can do here is prolly just wait for a shieldgrab and punish a bad spaced fair , bair, etc. Overall i think it is 65-35 is hard but not impossible, I suggest you nair OOS and use the bike frecuently, alsoooooo upsmash and uptitlt are really good on this MU so use those moves wisely ;3

 

[Magik0722]

I agree with the 65-35 matchup rating. She has a hard time landing the KO against us but thats not too much of a problem for her since she'll be racking up damage very quickly anyhow. Almost every move is a KO move eventually. Most of our damage comes from trades instead of clean hits or counters. Trades and bites in my experience. Using the wheelie on the bike is good if they stick to using nair to counter the bike. Landing the waft is pretty crucial and pretty easy to land off stage, its just difficult to get her off stage.

 

[Gombi]

Is there any list of the known bad MUfor wario ? I am searching for one i just want to know who are is bad MU

 

[Magik0722]

Shiek and villager.

 

[Gombi]

Shiek and villager.

pretty good if it's only those and Diddy xD

 

[BugCatcherWill]

pretty good if it's only those and Diddy xD

Bowser completely craps on Wario as well. Even his jab outreaches and trumps everything Wario has (even his bike), and Wario will have a hard time killing Bowser due to Wario having to use aerials almost exclusively.

 

[Twixer]

Any thoughts on a MU against Toon Link? (I know, TL doesn't come up often at all, it's weird).

I've been fighting a friend of mine that mains T Link. Basically he plays the campy playstyle, throwing bombs back to back for coverage and stage control, and occasionally throwing his boomerang/arrow. I try to play defensively and wait for punish opportunities, but I can never seem to land on him properly. I just end up hoping to poke him most of the times I do close in. It also seems hard to close in on him because of Wario's stubby range, and T Link's moves out prioritize Wario's, and they have more range. Trying to KO him is a pain too, though my landing with waft is an entirely different problem. Basically I miss it nearly all the time, still trying to learn its applications and properly understand its hitbox. So already my KO options are really limited while T Link has an easier time KOing.

Any advice? I really feel like the MU is in great favor of T Link after playing like 35+ matches with him. The sad part is that he's using a wii mote until he gets his GC controller too, so he doesn't grab. Which is a good and bad thing. He'll have more ways to limit my approaches, but it'll be easier to punish him other times too.

 

[Waymas]

I have fought with several Toon Links and i find the MU even, the only thing you have to do is run with shield and wait patiently for a Grab or maybe Nair OOS, Toon Link needs to camp you all day otherwise you can easily grab him after he throws a bomb or anything else. You can't play on the defense because he will outcamp you with no problem, so approach with caution, try to read an airdodge and waft or UpSmash him and also try to B-Air him out of stage.

 

[SirJuicius]

Regarding Sheik, I'd say it's 70:30 Sheik. With that said, it's a good 70:30. While Sheik can mercilessly string attacks in the air on Wario and protect herself quite well, she doesn't have a ton of KO options and can be KOed fairly early. As I see it, Wario has more KO options than Sheik and some of Sheik's play falls into what Wario likes in getting a KO. If you can read Sheik running toward you, throw out an f-tilt. Sheik has seriously good air attacks, but if you can airdodge and fast fall, you can probably land a hit on her in several ways, all of which depend on your distance from her. Also, if you read that Sheik is going in the air to get you, you can wait and plant a Wario Waft below her. D-Smash also does a good job of covering the ground and for some reason I find it to work against Sheik better than a lot of the characters in the game.

With that said though... Sheik simply out speeds Wario. Sheik deals out damage fast. Sheik is good at protecting herself, especially against Wario. Most important is that Sheik is better than Wario in the air, offensively and defensively. Sheik's needles stop Wario's momentum. She out-prioritizes him in the air and while Wario is a heavyweight, he can be KOed fairly early with Sheik's uair. Simply put, Sheik is better than Wario on the ground and in the air, where Wario is good at as well.

 

[Xinc]

Good day Wario mains,

We at the Ganon boards are having a discussion on the Ganon vs Wario matchup Here. Your input would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Xinc

 

[Ludiloco]

Regarding Sheik, I'd say it's 70:30 Sheik. With that said, it's a good 70:30. While Sheik can mercilessly string attacks in the air on Wario and protect herself quite well, she doesn't have a ton of KO options and can be KOed fairly early. As I see it, Wario has more KO options than Sheik and some of Sheik's play falls into what Wario likes in getting a KO. If you can read Sheik running toward you, throw out an f-tilt. Sheik has seriously good air attacks, but if you can airdodge and fast fall, you can probably land a hit on her in several ways, all of which depend on your distance from her. Also, if you read that Sheik is going in the air to get you, you can wait and plant a Wario Waft below her. D-Smash also does a good job of covering the ground and for some reason I find it to work against Sheik better than a lot of the characters in the game.

With that said though... Sheik simply out speeds Wario. Sheik deals out damage fast. Sheik is good at protecting herself, especially against Wario. Most important is that Sheik is better than Wario in the air, offensively and defensively. Sheik's needles stop Wario's momentum. She out-prioritizes him in the air and while Wario is a heavyweight, he can be KOed fairly early with Sheik's uair. Simply put, Sheik is better than Wario on the ground and in the air, where Wario is good at as well.

I think this is a good analysis. I played a pretty good Sheik in some friendlies at a tourney, my Wario isn't fantastic but I gained some valuable insight. Pivot f-tilt is a really nice tool for keeping sheik from dashing us down, and bite beats bouncing fish out in the early stages of the move (maybe beats the hitbox too) so definitely take advantage of that in an edge guard situation.

 

[Waymas]

Allright, let's move onto Rosalina...Ready..Set..Go!

 

[BugCatcherWill]

I was surprised when I learned Rosa-luma can't Gravitationalize (totally a word) Wario's Bike, so that gives Wario a projectile advantage any other projectile character wouldn't have.

Also, I believe the Bike can knock Luma off the stage even if Rosalina shields. So dispatching Luma should be easy. However, I think Rosalina's ridiculous jab takes Wario off his bike, so you could just jump off and use the lingering hotbox to dispatch Luma.

As for aerial game, I think Rosa wins this one with her wacky Upair, her meteor, and her neutral/fair that trumps Wario's air game.

Then again, Rosaluma is the 3rd lightest character, so KO'ing her shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I say 50-50, while maybe leaning a bit towards Rosaluma.

 

[Ridel]

I say 50-50, while maybe leaning a bit towards Rosaluma.

I agree. Also like Mario and Luigi, Wario's B-Throw can instantly KO Luma if used near the ledge. I found the Bite to also be particularly useful in this match-up, mostly when Luma isn't by her side though I'm not sure if Luma can attack you while Rosalina is in the Bite grab. Other then that I feel the match-up ultimately comes down to footsies and who can land bigger punishes first.

 

[Adrian Marin]

I've had a lot of experience against a tournament Rosaluma player, and so far, I believe Rosaluma has the advantage here.

• Rosaluma's Nair completely shuts down all of Wario's approaching options.
• Wario can't efficiently edgeguard with his bike due to numerous factors.
• Rosaluma's jab outranges us and is completely ********.
• Luma has a chance of interrupting Wario's bite.

I'd say it's in Rosaluma's favour 60-40 give or take.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Going to quote @Micaelis from the Rosalina matchup thread since I pretty much agree with his post.

I secondary Wario and have decent experience on both sides of the MU. Wario has great approach options vs Rosa when using a conjunction of Fair to punish SH Nair, Dash Attack to punish any aerial minus lag canceled RA Bair, falling Bite, jumping Bike, riding Bike to Bike lift on shield, FF Nair from above, etc. The unique part of the MU is Wario can put pressure from afar (using Bike), up front (Fair), and from above (Nair) when utilized intelligently. This makes Rosa really have to think about her walling options.

With that being said, Rosa has the options to successfully keep out Wario and that should be her main goal. Get an early lead and keep it. Try to control the center of the stage and don't lose Luma off the edge to a random Bike or SH retreating Bair.

The biggest problem for Rosa in this MU is Wario's weight and waft. Full charge rage waft kills Rosa easily at 20% and the half waft is nothing to scoff at either especially when backed up by rage.

The biggest problem for Wario in this MU is his lack of great kill options minus waft. He can't take advantage of Rosa's weight as long as she watches out for Ftilt and doesn't recover poorly into Dair.

Overall I think the MU is about even (50:50) if they both know what they are doing.

The Rosalina thread put the matchup at even and I pretty much agree. Wario can abuse the hell out of waft in this matchup if he plays his cards right.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

If you can get into her defenses, and take out Luma, you can send her flying since she's light weight.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Overall, the general consensus for Wario - Rosaluma MU is around 55:45 Rosaluma favor. I am in agreement with this for the following reasons (similar to what has already been stated):

1. Rosalina can keep Wario out with her various, rangy spacing tools like fair, Nair, jab, and her formidable uair control. This gives Wario a tough time doing something he already struggles with.

2. Wario lacks the ability to kill rosa effectively, even though she is so light. She has a big recovery, so despite its semi-linearity and no hitbox, it is hard to gimp without a spike. Landing farts is key; missing is very costly.

3. In Wario's favor, he possesses many abilities to dispose of Luma such as bthrow slap, ftilt, jab, bike, and dsmash. With this, he can get in to rack up damage with nair as his catalyst.

4. Rosa struggles to have an answer to bite, as many of her options are limited by her slow fall and ground speed. This gives Wario a great approach, and wall option if he has the lead.

I would like to hear more opinions

 

[Spinosaurus]

Wario doesn't have trouble killing Rosalina at all. She's tall and luma extends the waft hitbox so landing that is actually easy on her.

Even without the fart she's pretty light, she'd struggle off stage against Wario.

Also Wario shouldn't approach Rosalina. You'd be building up waft for free and that's what you exactly want.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Wario doesn't have trouble killing Rosalina at all. She's tall and luma extends the waft hitbox so landing that is actually easy on her.

Even without the fart she's pretty light, she'd struggle off stage against Wario.

Also Wario shouldn't approach Rosalina. You'd be building up waft for free and that's what you exactly want.

Good points. Is it the fact that farts are hard to come by and missing one (less common because of luma) takes away one of Wario's key kill options which creates his downfall against rosa offensively?

 

[ZeGlasses!]

I've played some Rosaluma matches in-tournament and on Anther's. It's definitely one of Wario's more even matchups with the high tiers.

• Wario is really good at killing Luma. Bike just tears the little thing a new one.
• Wario can keep up with Rosalina in the air due to his great airspeed.
• He can edgeguard Rosaluma really well. He can cover both high and low if he throws bike offstage.
• Rosaluma is light, so she gets destroyed by ftilt and bair.

Rosaluma can still outrange him, has more kill power than him, and juggles him to hell. So its still slightly in her favor.

45-55 at best. 40-50 at worst.

 

[Zorai]

The only problem with Rosaluma is if you try to straight up bike her, you're eating jabs for days. Yes they stop you dead in your tracks.

If you can get underneath Rosaluma it's curtains for her though. So I'm not sure how effective Wario's usual strategy of camping for waft will work.

Need more warios to give input!!!

 

[BugCatcherWill]

The only problem with Rosaluma is if you try to straight up bike her, you're eating jabs for days. Yes they stop you dead in your tracks.

If you can get underneath Rosaluma it's curtains for her though. So I'm not sure how effective Wario's usual strategy of camping for waft will work.

Need more warios to give input!!!

The bike has a lingering hotbox if you jump off, correct? So you could jump off the bike and the hitbox could still kill Luma. Although Rosa could just Up-Air you for days if that happened.

 

[Waymas]

All right guys, sorry for taking a while to update , let's move to Yoshi now... 3...2...1..GO!

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Yoshi is not really a "bad" matchup for Wario, but it can be incredibly annoying.

• Yoshi can deal with bike very well. Yoshi's nair can actually one shot it.
• Yoshi has a better airgame than you, which sucks.
• Eggs are just annoying.
• Killing is difficult since Yoshi is very rarely on the ground for an extended period of time(have to depend on Bair and Uair)
• If Yoshi gets the first kill, the match is VERY heavily in his favor unless you can get a quick revenge kill.

Otherwise, the matchup is actually quite even. Wario is basically just tons of Chomp and Fair abuse in this matchup, moreso than usual.

45-55 in my opinion.