Cheeri-Oats
Smash Lord
Hi Everyone,
My name is Oats and I'm posting a document that contains a frame-perfect overview of Sheik's options out-of-shield against Lucario and his cancels.
Description
If you've ever faced Lucario and you felt that it was impossible to do anything once he hits your shield, fret no more. Inside the workbook you'll find two green worksheets and three red ones. The red ones are merely frame data that are used in the green ones' calculations. The green ones are the real meat and potatoes.
They cover:
AuraMaudeGone
's Sheik Frame Data thread to understand some of the terminology I use.
First, I'll cover how Lucario performs those silly cancels, and then I'll describe what's inside the sheets.
How Lucario's Magic Series (Cancels) Work
As many of you probably already know, Lucario can cancel any of his normals into other moves and specials. Lucario can also cancel his Aura Sphere charge to allow for mobility. For many newer players to the match-up, this is intimidating and sometimes things start happening before you even know what's going on. It just feels like Lucario can walk all over you while you're stuck in shieldstun or hitstun. This is why I started this project.
Well, according to @
Akkien
from the Lucario boards, the character's cancels work like this:
Akkien
)...
Sheet 1: Cancelled Links (On Shield)
This sheet presents the frame difference of performing Sheik's out-of-shield options against a Lucario performing the listed sequence.
I've listed Neutral Air, Back Air, Up-Smash, Grab, Roll, and Spot-dodge. I included a column for Wavedash but I don't have the frame data necessary to fill it in. I chose these moves because they are the fastest and most likely best options to choose.
The numbers are derived using the following formula:
For the dodges (rolls and spot dodge), I included their start-up frames in the calculations and what you're seeing is the number of frames BEFORE the Sheik goes intangible.
For example, for a Lucario that cancels jab into forward-tilt:
That's why I provided a 2nd sheet to clarify just how good (or bad) rolling and spot-dodging are.
Sheet 2: Dodge Safety vs Cancelled Attacks
The second sheet requires a little more assumptions and thinking.
The second sheet assumes that you roll or spot-dodge within range of the cancelled-into attack in the listed sequence. And it also assumes that you spot-dodge or roll on the first available frame, and Lucario cancels on the first available frame.
For each type of dodge (spot or roll), we want to check if the active frames on the Lucario's hitboxes can hit you, and if the Lucario will finish their cooldown before you finish your dodge's cooldown.
For Whether Or Not You Are Hit
There are background calculations that check and see the frame difference between the end of your intangibility and the last active frame of the Lucario's hitboxes.
This column should be self-explanatory. It just shows how many frames after your dodge you'll have before the Lucario is free to do whatever they want.
Takeaways
Please remember, these sheets are ideal situations for both characters involved. In a real-life tourney scenario, the numbers will vary. Not to mention that clever Lucarios will switch up the timings on their cancels to cover any responses your Sheik-y mind may come up with.
Funnily enough, the dodge sheet is actually useful for all characters because the dodges have been normalized across the board.
And remember: the greener the value, the better. The redder, the deader you are.
Caveats and Reasoning
I live with (arguably) the 2nd-best Lucario in the nation, and I also live in a region where one of our best players is iPunchKidsz. Because of this overwhelming Lucario talent concentrated in our region, many players in my region are prone to complaining about how unfair Lucario is. But I firmly believe that he is beatable, and even has poor match-ups (Samus, Peach, and Falco).
Despite this conviction and being well-versed in the match-up, I know and understand just how frustrating it is to fight against this character. Every week I face nearly frame-perfect cancels to seemingly unstoppable pressure. Because the meta-game around me presents nearly frame perfect execution in pressure, in order to break through the onslaught, I've had to consider nearly frame-perfect responses; or, at the very least, I've had to think very carefully about what my best options are and where I have the most leeway.
Again, the numbers in the sheet are IDEAL AND FRAME-PERFECT. I don't expect anyone to be a robot for this hobby game. Though, I do expect passionate souls to take some of these ideas and maybe expand the Sheik (and other characters') meta-game(s).
Feel free to comment on the sheets.
My name is Oats and I'm posting a document that contains a frame-perfect overview of Sheik's options out-of-shield against Lucario and his cancels.
Description
If you've ever faced Lucario and you felt that it was impossible to do anything once he hits your shield, fret no more. Inside the workbook you'll find two green worksheets and three red ones. The red ones are merely frame data that are used in the green ones' calculations. The green ones are the real meat and potatoes.
They cover:
- the viability of out-of-shield options against a Lucario that successfully hits your shield and decides to cancel into another move
- the viability of dodges' (spot and rolls) and whether or not they'll leave you vulnerable as an out-of-shield
AuraMaudeGone
's Sheik Frame Data thread to understand some of the terminology I use.First, I'll cover how Lucario performs those silly cancels, and then I'll describe what's inside the sheets.
How Lucario's Magic Series (Cancels) Work
As many of you probably already know, Lucario can cancel any of his normals into other moves and specials. Lucario can also cancel his Aura Sphere charge to allow for mobility. For many newer players to the match-up, this is intimidating and sometimes things start happening before you even know what's going on. It just feels like Lucario can walk all over you while you're stuck in shieldstun or hitstun. This is why I started this project.
Well, according to @
Akkien
from the Lucario boards, the character's cancels work like this:The following diagrams detail the series in which you cancel your moves. Assume you start from the left and cancel into the subsequent move:
- Jab/Dash Attack > Tilt > Smash > Special
- Aerial > Special.
Akkien
)...Taken all together, this means Lucario can potentially become a combo MONSTER. But with my worksheets, hopefully you can see that all these cancels are not as scary as they seem.
Sheet 1: Cancelled Links (On Shield)
This sheet presents the frame difference of performing Sheik's out-of-shield options against a Lucario performing the listed sequence.
I've listed Neutral Air, Back Air, Up-Smash, Grab, Roll, and Spot-dodge. I included a column for Wavedash but I don't have the frame data necessary to fill it in. I chose these moves because they are the fastest and most likely best options to choose.
The numbers are derived using the following formula:
Start-Up Frames of Cancelled-Into Move - (Sheik's Shield Stun + Frames to Response)
For the dodges (rolls and spot dodge), I included their start-up frames in the calculations and what you're seeing is the number of frames BEFORE the Sheik goes intangible.
For example, for a Lucario that cancels jab into forward-tilt:
- if the Sheik decides to neutral air, they'll beat the Lucario's forward-tilt by 1 frame
- if the Sheik decides to spot dodge, they'll start their intangibility 5 frames before the 2nd move's active hitbox
That's why I provided a 2nd sheet to clarify just how good (or bad) rolling and spot-dodging are.
Sheet 2: Dodge Safety vs Cancelled Attacks
The second sheet requires a little more assumptions and thinking.
The second sheet assumes that you roll or spot-dodge within range of the cancelled-into attack in the listed sequence. And it also assumes that you spot-dodge or roll on the first available frame, and Lucario cancels on the first available frame.
For each type of dodge (spot or roll), we want to check if the active frames on the Lucario's hitboxes can hit you, and if the Lucario will finish their cooldown before you finish your dodge's cooldown.
For Whether Or Not You Are Hit
There are background calculations that check and see the frame difference between the end of your intangibility and the last active frame of the Lucario's hitboxes.
- If your dodge ends on the exact frame their last hitbox is out, you'll have a "Hit?" of 0. This is good, you won't get hit.
- If your dodge ends AFTER their last hitbox is out, the difference in frames will be greater than 0. This is good, you dodged the whole thing!
- If your dodge ends BEFORE their last hitbox is out, the difference in frames will be less than 0. This is bad. You're getting ****ed.
This column should be self-explanatory. It just shows how many frames after your dodge you'll have before the Lucario is free to do whatever they want.
Takeaways
Please remember, these sheets are ideal situations for both characters involved. In a real-life tourney scenario, the numbers will vary. Not to mention that clever Lucarios will switch up the timings on their cancels to cover any responses your Sheik-y mind may come up with.
Funnily enough, the dodge sheet is actually useful for all characters because the dodges have been normalized across the board.
And remember: the greener the value, the better. The redder, the deader you are.
Caveats and Reasoning
I live with (arguably) the 2nd-best Lucario in the nation, and I also live in a region where one of our best players is iPunchKidsz. Because of this overwhelming Lucario talent concentrated in our region, many players in my region are prone to complaining about how unfair Lucario is. But I firmly believe that he is beatable, and even has poor match-ups (Samus, Peach, and Falco).
Despite this conviction and being well-versed in the match-up, I know and understand just how frustrating it is to fight against this character. Every week I face nearly frame-perfect cancels to seemingly unstoppable pressure. Because the meta-game around me presents nearly frame perfect execution in pressure, in order to break through the onslaught, I've had to consider nearly frame-perfect responses; or, at the very least, I've had to think very carefully about what my best options are and where I have the most leeway.
Again, the numbers in the sheet are IDEAL AND FRAME-PERFECT. I don't expect anyone to be a robot for this hobby game. Though, I do expect passionate souls to take some of these ideas and maybe expand the Sheik (and other characters') meta-game(s).
Feel free to comment on the sheets.
