I'm seeing things about Marth grab releasing Cloud, and that's a Jab or Ftilt supposedly for Marth. However, can't Cloud Shield in time to avoid these moves?
Correct. That's why it's a frame trap, not a combo. If Cloud presses an attack button in that situation, he bleeds.
So one of my good friends is a highly technical, aggressive Cloud player. He focuses on advanced movement (dash dancing, extended dash dancing, and Perfect Pivoting), heavy usage of auto-cancels, tomahawks, and ledgetrapping. He almost never limit camps and never goes off-stage for gimps because he is so proficient at ledge-trapping. He is very good with ledge trumps though, and adapts well to opponent's reactions that escape his usual flow chart of option coverage.
He rarely uses defensive options with the notable exception of heavy spot dodge usage. He will almost never air dodge unless his Dairs are being intercepted or being heavily juggled/off-stage. Offense is his best Defense in this case.
Reading this thread has helped greatly and I am in the process of adapting and watching Marth vs. Clouds on YouTube, but I need more help.
About myself, I am a Robin main with plenty of tournament experience, and have placed Top 8 in a sanctioned weekly tournament going solo Robin. Marth is my secondary but he does not have the same exposure as my Robin so I have rarely used him in tournament. However, I have played Marth for a long time and have experience with him in previous games.
As for my playstyle, I am largely defensive/hit and run. I rely heavily on shielding and OoS options usually outside of character specific interactions. (This and ledge-trapping is why he wrecks my Robin, he's very good on shield) I am not particularly technical outside of some basic pivoting and the occasional Extended Dash Dancing and Ledge Trumping. My strengths lie in option coverage, follow-up predictions and reads, and juggling/off-stage gameplay.
As I said, I am in the process of adapting myself to a more balanced playstyle, but for the time being I need some Marth specific tips and tricks to better handle a skilled, tournament-level Cloud player. Or maybe a fundamentals change, idk.
(Robin has OoS options?! Er, nevermind, off-topic.)
He sounds like a solid tourney Cloud, so first question is, is he simply a better player than you, fundamentals-wise? If so, then that paired with an EZ-mode character like Cloud doesn't bode well for you. I'll assume this isn't the case though.
I don't find Cloud's ledgetrapping game to be anything special; many other characters can do similar. His speed & range just make it easier to execute. Anyone with a lingering nair can backhop nair to cover all 4 major getups simultaneously: Sheik & Link can both do so. How's your ledgedrop DJ up-air? Robin & Marth both can do this to good effect. Marth frequently gets a tipper that way.
But I do think Marth's a better choice than Robin in this MU. Invincible up-B + better edgeguarding.
Up-tilt can beat Cloud's dair. Just don't **** up.
If this Cloud prefers spotdodging to blocking, do a side-B Dancing Blade, all four hits, with the low multi-stab ender for good damage. DB is how Marth's damage output keeps pace with Cloud's. DB is of course the "wrong" option in that case because blocking blows it up, but if the dude never blocks... yomi, man. (When he finally starts blocking DB, don't go to the 3rd hit, unless his shield is really low, in which case the low multi-hit 4th can shield-stab.)
Experiment with Counter offstage, either as a guard or to break his ledgetrapping. It doesn't seem like he'll go offstage to punish a whiffed Counter, but then again he might. In which case, forget about it.
Cloud's fair takes forever to come out, and his nair begins behind him, so you can get a lot of mileage against his short-hop pressure by occasionally jumping right at him, "into" his attack, and directly challenge it with Marth's much faster attack. You'll usually hit him out of his "startup" and take stage control.
Stage control is important. How's your off-stage and on-stage edgeguarding? Make it better. Marth has great edgeguarding potential with fast, far f-air, with semi-lingering n-air, and with Counter to knock away up-Bs. Stage control is important because edgeguarding begins with knocking them off-stage, and you can't do that until you can corner them with their back to the ledge.
Blocking is good. Cloud gets little off of throws, and Marth's OoS is good. When a platform is above you, OoS invincible Up-B is almost free.
Pivot f-tilt. You likely don't do this much with Robin (I can't even tell you what Robin's f-tilt looks like, tbh, which is rare for a swordie.) But it's really useful for Marth, particularly when catching Cloud's landings. Also sometimes kills. Even when it doesn't kill, if it tippers you get stage control; possibly a lot of stage control.
Pretend you're playing Street Fighter and are trying to walk your opponent into the corner. To gimp him. Marth has the tools.
EDIT: when going off-stage for edgeguarding, sometimes nair is a better choice than fair. This seems wrong because fair's duration is only 4f longer than Cloud's airdodge duration, while nair is much longer, so the fair is more spammable. But if the fair doesn't hit immediately, Cloud can double-airdodge a double-fair easily, then start his frame-4 up-B to recover in Marth's final fair frames. Meanwhile, Marth's nair, although with a FAF about 50% longer, has hitboxes near the end of it. You can approach Cloud with an early nair, intending only for the 2nd hit to hit him, or even none at all, to scare him into airdodging. Since you've gotten him to airdodge with a nair with "meaty timing", your second aerial stands a greater chance of catching Cloud before he can airdodge twice.
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