Villager Matchup Discussion Thread 1 - Sheik

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

I recently played a Shiek player at a local and had no trouble on BF, the MU is good

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

Hardly can explain, but we don't struggle

 

[SoniCraft]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the increased shield stun and how it might affect the sheik MU? I feel like she'll be able to pressure with fair much easier, but we should be able to do the same.

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the increased shield stun and how it might affect the sheik MU? I feel like she'll be able to pressure with fair much easier, but we should be able to do the same.

Increased shield stun? Didn't pick that up in the patch notes

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

I think that will help Villager more, just a little tho. We have projectiles and disjoints up the wazoo

 

[AnchorTea]

The increased ShieldStun means that we should NEVER shield to avoid the needles. Loid is our bae and we need to use it for now on.

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

Lloid is bae regardless

 

[Mtn64]

I think we should call on some people and see how they feel after the shieldstun changes for fighting sheik.
Darklink401 @zeezee
I'll be around to put an opinion in after I fight some sheiks, hopefully I'll see some on my local on Wednesday.

 

[Darklink401]

Sheik's already safe, this just evens the playing field

So I think it's a fantastic change. Especially because now we can actually pressure shields, while Sheik has remained relatively unchanged.

Also, needles keep you in shield, meaning you won't let go of shield too early and get hit. So that's good. I believe it's only 3-4 frames that it'd keep you locked in shield by the end anyways, so I don't think shielding needles is a bad option, so long as Sheik is a decent distance away.

if anything, this solidifies the 50-50

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

Are we gonna make #2 soon?

 

[Mtn64]

Ended up fighting some sheiks at my local on Wednesday.
I feel the MU got better for us now. We can throw out sweetspot dtilt on shield without getting fair stringed now, we can press axe much more safely, shield breaking sheik is much easier than it was, and Fsmash is never punished by sheik (and it was highly unlikely before.)
Other than that, it's about the same. I actually almost lost the first game to a sheik in losers round (8?) but ended up making a 2 stock comeback. The second game he lost pretty bad.
Fought a sheik in losers round 4 as well, the set didn't go well for him. Oh and in losers semi, I fought a Diddy who switched to sheik game 2. He was doing well for a bit, but he was getting easy to adapt to so I made another 2 stock comeback.

EDIT:
I'd like to talk about the ZSS and Diddy MU, because aside from the local I won (I beat the same ZSS I'm about to talk about) I've lost to the same ZSS twice and I have a lot of close sets with Diddy Kong's. I feel there's more to that MU than "We win if Diddy is offstage!!"

 

[Darklink401]

Ended up fighting some sheiks at my local on Wednesday.
I feel the MU got better for us now. We can throw out sweetspot dtilt on shield without getting fair stringed now, we can press axe much more safely, shield breaking sheik is much easier than it was, and Fsmash is never punished by sheik (and it was highly unlikely before.)
Other than that, it's about the same. I actually almost lost the first game to a sheik in losers round (8?) but ended up making a 2 stock comeback. The second game he lost pretty bad.
Fought a sheik in losers round 4 as well, the set didn't go well for him. Oh and in losers semi, I fought a Diddy who switched to sheik game 2. He was doing well for a bit, but he was getting easy to adapt to so I made another 2 stock comeback.

EDIT:
I'd like to talk about the ZSS and Diddy MU, because aside from the local I won (I beat the same ZSS I'm about to talk about) I've lost to the same ZSS twice and I have a lot of close sets with Diddy Kong's. I feel there's more to that MU than "We win if Diddy is offstage!!"

I feel we win the ZSS matchup, due to several reasons

1. Players on both sides seem to think so
2. Nairo keeps losing to Villagers
3. My own experience

Also we're short, which is just an inconvenience for Zero Suit (if we crouch, she can barely hit us with SH aerials at all, she has to do it at the last possible second while falling.


As for Diddy, I feel the neutral is won by us, and the matchup is at least 55-45, if we can take the banana, and just camp him out.

Luigi-style. Because, he might just destroy us up-close, but if we take banana and run with a lead, we win.

 

[Mr.C_Spain]

Before end the Sheik's thread I add a complete guide to deal with Sheik which I think I've compiled all things about this matchup. But I think it doesn't perfect, so I'd appreciate if you could help me to improve it: http://www.smashbrosspain.com/index.php/foros/viewtopic.php/f,204/t,8043/ (it is in spanish, but I guess with google translater you can understand)

On the other hand, I prefer to talk about Diddy MU, because many times people just says "take the banana" and "gimp him" and I have many troubles whit this monkey.

Diddy's Fair is very bad for us. It destroy us (Nair is useless). so, how we deal with his Fair). Then Diddy is very fast in the ground, and it's very easy to him conect a grab (> combo > more damage) without a banana without many problems. Yes, you can launch a Lloid o punish his grab with jab, Nair or Dair, but for me it's quite hard. I agree that Diddy win us up-close. But I don't know how win Diddy in the neutral: Fair+sh is useless if Diddy approachs/stays at the ground and Nair lose against his Fair.

Anybody feels Diddy's MU is the worse for Villager.

 

[Darklink401]

Before end the Sheik's thread I add a complete guide to deal with Sheik which I think I've compiled all things about this matchup. But I think it doesn't perfect, so I'd appreciate if you could help me to improve it: http://www.smashbrosspain.com/index.php/foros/viewtopic.php/f,204/t,8043/ (it is in spanish, but I guess with google translater you can understand)

On the other hand, I prefer to talk about Diddy MU, because many times people just says "take the banana" and "gimp him" and I have many troubles whit this monkey.

Diddy's Fair is very bad for us. It destroy us (Nair is useless). so, how we deal with his Fair). Then Diddy is very fast in the ground, and it's very easy to him conect a grab (> combo > more damage) without a banana without many problems. Yes, you can launch a Lloid o punish his grab with jab, Nair or Dair, but for me it's quite hard. I agree that Diddy win us up-close. But I don't know how win Diddy in the neutral: Fair+sh is useless if Diddy approachs/stays at the ground and Nair lose against his Fair.

Anybody feels Diddy's MU is the worse for Villager.

Take the banana, camp him as hard as you'd camp pre-patch Luigi

Diddy struggles at approaching Villager :3

 

[SoniCraft]

Take the banana, camp him as hard as you'd camp pre-patch Luigi

Diddy struggles at approaching Villager :3

You know Diddy doesn't HAVE to use the banana right? What if Diddy just doesn't let you have it because he never pulls it out? Diddy can still approach without the banana, he has options that are safe enough to do so if he plays correctly.

Are people waiting on me to make the next MU thread? Anybody can do it if they want.

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

I can make it rn
there: http://smashboards.com/threads/villager-matchup-discussion-2.420367/

 

[Darklink401]

You know Diddy doesn't HAVE to use the banana right? What if Diddy just doesn't let you have it because he never pulls it out? Diddy can still approach without the banana, he has options that are safe enough to do so if he plays correctly.

Are people waiting on me to make the next MU thread? Anybody can do it if they want.

He doesn't need the banana, but it'll make it hard for him to kill, since aside from banana his main kill options are dtilt to upsmash, uptilt, and upthrow upair at super high %s, but if you camp him out, it's easy to make him unable to approach.

Trust me, I was having trouble fighting a decent Diddy Kong, but once I started camping him out (banana or not) I just had a super easy time winning xD

 

[MJG]

Yea Diddy doesn't need the banana to win this MU. His speed can be troublesome for sure. Lloid is useful for stopping the banana for sure. But yea, this MU isn't as simple as camping him and securing an easy victory. We should definitely play slower and attempt to pin Diddy near the ledge (every char is at an advantage when they have their opponent near the ledge). I agree with Mr. C as well. Fair can definitely be troublesome if you aren't careful about your spacing but even then, its not the easiest thing to deal with since he is so fast. I'm definitely down to talk about the Diddy MU since I'll see a handful of them at MLG this week. Also, I 100% disagree with Diddy struggling to approach villager. Just goes back to his speed an options that he has. I'm pretty positive that side b will go through our lloid as well. Just some random thoughts until we get a thread up

EDIT: Also lol a lot of ZSS mains think the MU is in our favor as of late. ZSS being tall definitely helps and we can play anti grab well. The edge guarding goes hard but I don't think any ZSS plays the MU right besides choco. All the other zss' i've played run in too fast and ZSS can still cheese us with some silly combos; ie nair to down b if we're not careful. I personally think the MU is even and could possibly be in our favor

 

[SoniCraft]

Yea Diddy doesn't need the banana to win this MU. His speed can be troublesome for sure. Lloid is useful for stopping the banana for sure. But yea, this MU isn't as simple as camping him and securing an easy victory. We should definitely play slower and attempt to pin Diddy near the ledge (every char is at an advantage when they have their opponent near the ledge). I agree with Mr. C as well. Fair can definitely be troublesome if you aren't careful about your spacing but even then, its not the easiest thing to deal with since he is so fast. I'm definitely down to talk about the Diddy MU since I'll see a handful of them at MLG this week. Also, I 100% disagree with Diddy struggling to approach villager. Just goes back to his speed an options that he has. I'm pretty positive that side b will go through our lloid as well. Just some random thoughts until we get a thread up

EDIT: Also lol a lot of ZSS mains think the MU is in our favor as of late. ZSS being tall definitely helps and we can play anti grab well. The edge guarding goes hard but I don't think any ZSS plays the MU right besides choco. All the other zss' i've played run in too fast and ZSS can still cheese us with some silly combos; ie nair to down b if we're not careful. I personally think the MU is even and could possibly be in our favor

What are your thoughts on the Sheik MU?

 

[TheeRealMonkey]

Here's a video from the last tournament I entered a few weeks back. Me vs Sheik.
Maybe you guys can take something from it.