Villager Matchup Discussion 3 - Rosalina and Luma

SoniCraft

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#1
I think it's about time we get the MU discussion threads rolling again. This thread will discuss a widely hated MU among Villagers, Rosalina and Luma! Is it really as bad as people say? What are the nuances we should know to handle Luma or Gravitational Pull? Here's a guideline I borrowed from the Project M Ness forums that I think would be handy to follow.

1. Neutral game - How should we approach this character, if we should approach at all? What moves should we use to get in, and what should we watch out for?
2. Edgeguarding - How do we keep this character off the stage and eventually out of the blastzone? What recovery options should we look out for and try to cover? Is the tree a better idea, or the bowling ball? Or just going out there and nairing them to death? Luckily our character has quite a few options for this.
3. Recovering - Usually recovering with Villager is pretty self-explanatory, but what moves should we watch out for just in case? Would getting into the habit of using lloid before Up-B put us in a bad spot?
4. Stage Choice - What stages do you prefer vs. this character? What should we strike, and what should we counterpick to? If we don't have Battlefield or Dreamland, what's a good alternative?
5. Matchup Ratio - How favorable or unfavorable do you believe this MU is for us? Do you think it could change in the future, for better or for worse? Use the first number to indicate how favorable it is for Villager and the second to indicate how favorable it is for the other character(For example, the DDD MU could be 65:35 Villager's favor). Please stick to ratios in increments of 5, no 63:37 or anything like that.
6. Anything else you'd like to add! Feel free to talk about your own experiences with this MU. Cite videos that could demonstrate your points well, or just add anything that can't be said in the above sections.
 

Deezxnutz

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#2
Normally I tried to condition Rosa to DownB with numerous slingshots then go for a grab when she tries it again. Riding the Lloid is a good mixup if she tries to absord your Lloid. I see some players have her absord something then run to shield to get in close on her as well.
 

TimG57867

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#3
Well looks like we just got some gold on this matchup. As fate would have it, the best players of Villager and Rosalina and Luma respectively got to go at it losers:


It appears Ranai tried to implement the standard anti-Gravitational Pull strategy. He tried to use Lloids and Pellets to bait out the Gravitational Pull and punish. While did find success to an extent, the combination of Dabuz's spacing and Luma's disjoints was just too much. But when Dabuz was off stage, he did everything he could to try to abuse her recovery. Any other takeaways?
 

Darklink401

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#4
1. Neutral game - Lots of lloids and slingshots, to keep Rosalina trapped in grav pull, unless she wants to take damage. When you see an opening, approach as she grav pulls and hit her with a nair or close.range fair that will get inside grav pull's deadzone. She will be forced to approach if you have a lead, and that's what you want. Play safe, watch for her long and double-hit dash attack, and just keep pressuring her and going in when you see an opening.
2. Edgeguarding - Imperative: take her double jump with weak fairs if you can. She will have to up B. Parctice getting used to the timing it takes her to get to the stage with an up B. Bowling ball is better thrown early than late, as you can throw it, then either run back and upsmash to catch the usual roll, or doa dtilt or uptilt near the ledge.
3. Recovering - Recover low, hug the stage, Rosalina's jumps are floaty so she will either be doing an onstage jump near the ledge into ff dair to try and hit you through it, or trying to go out and bairing you, but both are easily seeable.
4. Stage Choice - Any stage is fine, but I wouldn't recommend battlefield since Rosalina with grav pull and a low side platform right next to her can be tough to approach in the way I stated in the Neutral game section of this post.
5. Matchup Ratio - 45:55. We lose the MU by a bit, because she CAN get early kills, but it's definitely not as bad as people think it is, and the more Mu knowledge is had, the more benefitial it will be for Villager.
6. Don't be afraid to shield. Rosalina doesn't have any killthrows until around 170% or shieldbreak moves. Shielding is strong against her, and if you can read she will go for grabs, you can get some nice punishes on her with spotdodge nair or OoS nairs. Play patient, and remember her best grounded kill options are smashes, nothing else will kill you if she is on the ground. In the air, when trying to land, be tricky with b-reverses and lloid stalling.
 

SoniCraft

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#5
When you see an opening, approach as she grav pulls and hit her with a nair or close.range fair that will get inside grav pull's deadzone.
Whoa I didn't know G. Pull had a deadzone. How close is it to Rosa?
 

Darklink401

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#6
Whoa I didn't know G. Pull had a deadzone. How close is it to Rosa?
Umm...pretty close-ish? If you spam grav pull and keep using bowling ball next to her (like, if the edge of bowling ball even slightly touches her, she gets hit)
 

Moosseff

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#7
A ledge option I like to use vs rosa is drop down walljump ride loid because they are forced to sheild it although they can punish this they usually wont the first time. Rosa nair covers a LOT of distance so you have to be carefull when you loid with villager otherwise you take a nair which usually either pushes you into the corner of the stage or completely off. Next off be carefull when you loid while recovering, rosa can easily drop below it and hit you with an up air. I could be wrong about this but I believe 3 turnip Dair beats rosa up air. Loiding into rosas sheild isnt domething I would recommend unless you are positive that they are going to keep GPing. You can also bait out GP with loid and punish, I like to punish with dair because its good damage, can set up for a techchase at somewhat mid percents and it cant be beat by upsmash with 2-3 turnips. I would not recommend throwing out grab in this MU because if you whiff then you get grabbed yourself and take like 30-40% (Upthrow upair ikr ugh) I dont like punishing GP with grab because you can get hit by loid during your dashgrab animation. Dont try and punish with nair in this MU alot because nair barely effects luma. If you are caught in a position where you take damage from rosas jab or lumas jab always take rosas jab (unless if luma is close enough to where rosas jab leads into lumas jab) Always take an opportunity to edgeguard rosa. ALWAYS lol 2 framing with dair js a lot easier on rosa. Definitely sonething I recommend labbing until you got the timing right (or just use bowling ball like a cool person) If you see rosa short hop dont fair or bair unless you're confident that they arw going to try and tomohawk you or something. Wait and see what rosa does when she shorthops because for somevreason rosa players think that if they hold down b they win the matchup lol. Nair OOS can be dangerous. I like to have tree up at almost all times because axe OOS is good vs rosa if you sheild in front of luma also tree means somewhat stage control just be carefull when you chop down your tree (Pretty sure rosa can down B that too). You can bait out rosa to do sh GP and just punish with a falling upair or run in upsmash (Both can be punished if you are not fast enough or attempt to punish late) Dair OOS can be good but predictable since late hits of dair get beat out by rosas upsmash. Other than that you generally want to keep rosa out but not too far away. And if you can get rid of luma you shouldnt care if you get punished. Luma is key to this MU for rosa. If you take away luma a lot of your approach options become a lot more safer. You want to approach rosa when luma is gone however you have to respect her aerials such as nair and upair. Also I wouldnt challenge upsmash or dash attack. Try not to be hit by those moves upon landing because you will lose stage control. Thats all I really have to say about this MU. I like to think of this MU like sheik dittos where one mistake can cost you like 80% (Fair string including ledgeguards)


Also sorry about making this post like half a year long T_T
 

Volya

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#8
As always i'm too lazy to post a huge thing sooo
1- MU is ~even
2- We basically have to aim the head. Like, seriously, just aim Rosalina's head.
3- Gimp this ***** asap when offstage
4- don't spam sideb like a braindead.. like in a lot of mus actually
5- don't try to fight her uair with your dair, with or without luma.
6- dunno about stages but i like Dreamland over BF against her
 

Mtn64

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#9
1. Neutral game - Villager really only has one line of play in this matchup, and it's to poke safely. The neutral in general depends on who has the percent lead, but generally Villager should be trying to safely throw projectiles and bait gravity pulls, catch Rosalina's landings, and anti air effectively. UAir gets the job done just fine, and is able to beat her out if she starts a jump, however, Rosalina beats our UAir out with her DAir, so when anti airing, bait out the move and punish accordingly [BAir to hit her side or UAir as hitbox is ending]
I believe tree should be up almost 100% of the time in this matchup. In the Rosaluma matchup, there's almost never a time where we can't setup tree, and if we can't find the time, we can always just pop out lloid and have her down b while we do it. OoS Axe, SH Axe, and SH Pivot Axe [utilizing the back hitbox to approach and get out safely] all knock luma and result in luma either dying or being rendered void for a few seconds.
Dtilt is useful in this matchup, as Rosalina will start trying to play grounded when we start anti airing efficiently. Sweetspot DTilt knocks luma, so keep that in mind.
Also, I believe it was SoniCraft SoniCraft who created a thread about RAR BAir to grab as a confirm on certain characters. I have not put it into my play yet, but I do plan on working on it soon. If this is true combo [which was stated in the thread,] then it could be severely useful in breaking Rosalina and Luma's walls and momentum in the match.

2. Edgeguarding - Other than pellet gimps (which should honestly only be used to take jump vs rosalina) there are 3 important buttons to press in this matchup.
DAir - Jumping DAir can be used if the jump was done while being a bit under the stage; if she tries to sweetspot ledge this will hit 100% of the time.
FSmash - not only for the ease of hitting after a DAir or two on Rosalina's linear recovery, but it usually hits Luma regardless of whether Rosalina has invincibility or not.
Axe - This kills Rosa really early offstage and can be an alternative to DAir to kill luma while hitting Rosalina if timed correctly.
These three moves along with pellets should honestly be the main buttons pressed offstage.

3. Recovering - Hug the wall, jumping tech BAir and DAir. Off the jumping tech, either put out a DAir and recover, or just recover straight up.

4. Stage Choice - If you're confident in not dying to UAir early, town is a fantastic pick as UTilt is really easy to hit in the matchup, and axe kills really early off a sourspot dair --> axe or axe on sweetspot ledge read. Not only that, but the platforms don't limit our few approach options in the matchup when we don't have the % lead and offer easier camp tools on the case of a potential timeout.

5. Matchup Ratio - In the current meta, only because Ranai's loss to Dabuz, I say we lose the matchup 45:55. I feel this matchup could go up to 50:50, 55:45, or even 60:40 as Villager mains start to exploit Rosalinas weaknesses [landing without luma, recovery, and aerial mobility]

Hopefully this helped a bit! I'm not the most educated on the topic but I do have some experiences in the matchup! Thanks for reading :)
 
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SoniCraft

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#10
1. Neutral game - Villager really only has one line of play in this matchup, and it's to poke safely. The neutral in general depends on who has the percent lead, but generally Villager should be trying to safely throw projectiles and bait gravity pulls, catch Rosalina's landings, and anti air effectively. UAir gets the job done just fine, and is able to beat her out if she starts a jump, however, Rosalina beats our UAir out with her DAir, so when anti airing, bait out the move and punish accordingly [BAir to hit her side or UAir as hitbox is ending]
I believe tree should be up almost 100% of the time in this matchup. In the Rosaluma matchup, there's almost never a time where we can't setup tree, and if we can't find the time, we can always just pop out lloid and have her down b while we do it. OoS Axe, SH Axe, and SH Pivot Axe [utilizing the back hitbox to approach and get out safely] all knock luma and result in luma either dying or being rendered void for a few seconds.
Dtilt is useful in this matchup, as Rosalina will start trying to play grounded when we start anti airing efficiently. Sweetspot DTilt knocks luma, so keep that in mind.
Also, I believe it was SoniCraft SoniCraft who created a thread about RAR BAir to grab as a confirm on certain characters. I have not put it into my play yet, but I do plan on working on it soon. If this is true combo [which was stated in the thread,] then it could be severely useful in breaking Rosalina and Luma's walls and momentum in the match.

2. Edgeguarding - Other than pellet gimps (which should honestly only be used to take jump vs rosalina) there are 3 important buttons to press in this matchup.
DAir - Jumping DAir can be used if the jump was done while being a bit under the stage; if she tries to sweetspot ledge this will hit 100% of the time.
FSmash - not only for the ease of hitting after a DAir or two on Rosalina's linear recovery, but it usually hits Luma regardless of whether Rosalina has invincibility or not.
Axe - This kills Rosa really early offstage and can be an alternative to DAir to kill luma while hitting Rosalina if timed correctly.
These three moves along with pellets should honestly be the main buttons pressed offstage.

3. Recovering - Hug the wall, jumping tech BAir and DAir. Off the jumping tech, either put out a DAir and recover, or just recover straight up.

4. Stage Choice - If you're confident in not dying to UAir early, town is a fantastic pick as UTilt is really easy to hit in the matchup, and axe kills really early off a sourspot dair --> axe or axe on sweetspot ledge read. Not only that, but the platforms don't limit our few approach options in the matchup when we don't have the % lead and offer easier camp tools on the case of a potential timeout.

5. Matchup Ratio - In the current meta, only because Ranai's loss to Dabuz, I say we lose the matchup 45:55. I feel this matchup could go up to 50:50, 55:45, or even 60:40 as Villager mains start to exploit Rosalinas weaknesses [landing without luma, recovery, and aerial mobility]

Hopefully this helped a bit! I'm not the most educated on the topic but I do have some experiences in the matchup! Thanks for reading :)
Ah yes the RAR bair grab confirm was discovered by Tommy - S.N. Tommy - S.N. so thank him for that. I plan on trying it out as well.
 

Tommy - S.N.

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#11
Ah yes the RAR bair grab confirm was discovered by Tommy - S.N. Tommy - S.N. so thank him for that. I plan on trying it out as well.
After a few games with my roommate I learned that if you bait GP by bluffing SH Fair, you can quickly FF and go straight into rising RAR Bair. (Just make sure you commit to the grab as soon as you see RAR Bair hit.) Also they don't have to be grounded when you're using RAR Bair into grab, they only need to be within low percentage range, (excluding 0%-8%) and grab range. (I learned this from playing against a Mario who is usually to short to be hit by RAR Bair.) And RAR Bair might... just might get through GP's Dead Zone when you're practically inside her, if that's what Darklink401 Darklink401 is saying. I got to test it...
 
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Mr.C_Spain

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#12
WOW! I didn't the explanation why Ranai could hit sometimes Rosalina with Fair inside downB!! O_O Thanks for the information Darklink401 Darklink401

Right now I have been researching and I could figure this out. For example, at this example:



This is the DownB's hitboxes (red):



  • All object o projectile that touches red hitbox will be affected by the Rosalina DownB (and will become her or she can catch).
  • The Dead Zone is inside de GP, in the Rosalina body. The green bubbles are the zones where if you put a projectile this is not affected by de GP and can hit Rosalina. The purple bubbles are the zones that I can't confirme now.
To calculate the distances of up green bubbles up I've drawn 2 black lines to do easier: take as reference the separation between Luma and Rosalina ahead, and a little more of her skirt from behind.

We can hit in te green bubbles up with Fair/Dair and in the green bubble down with the flowerpot.

Besides we remember the size of the DownB circular hitbox, as a reference the radius (blue line) is as long as a platform from Town and City. Don't forget that the size of the circle is the same in all directions (the Ness upB's trayectory at this picture is only an example).

And finally I take the opportunity to remember that also bear careful with this situation:
 

Mekos

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#14

JohnnyB

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#15
Hey Villager mains! Mekos here! I was the number 1 Lucas in the world for brawl and now am coming out of retirement to main him in smash 4. I made this video about the lucas vs villager matchup ft. MJG.

I think the matchup is 55:45 in Lucas favor. You guys agree?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDp...xtrgxnndlq4u04&google_view_type#gpluscomments
Yes. I play Lucas and Villager and i feel like Lucas has the tools to shut down enough of Villagers play to give him the edge. Not a huge advantage, but tougher for Villager than Lucas.
 
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