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Vids of Amazing Sonic(Malcolm)

da K.I.D.

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just... for emphasis.

10diditfirsts.
why do i get the feeling that you are always trying to fight me and find fault in something?

this must mean everything else that was in my WoT must have been completely accurate seeing as you didnt stop to comment on it

w/e...
 

darkNES386

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I'm not trying to upset anyone here. I'm just bringing information to the table.

It's just funny kid that you're talking about Mr.3000 when Tenki has the mother of all posters about about spin cancels and stuff and he was the one teaching most of us about their execution and possible uses. The first couple matches of Mr.3000 made everyone go: NO way! He's winning w/OUT ANY ATs!

I agree with puffball who agrees with you about everything except changing matches to 4 stocks. Since Sonic has to mix up his game multiple times in a single match..... wait a second:

Sonic is one of the most frustrating characters to main. Anytime you start to find something that works with Sonic your opponent will most likely come up with some sort of counter. You probably have played someone who for the first two stocks you took the lead, but suddenly they are on their final life and you are no longer able to use the same tricks against them. In the same game that you were destroying them, suddenly you can't find a way to get that last stock. What happened? You fell into too many predictable patterns. Your opponent adjusted properly and now your little tricks aren't working anymore. What you now must do is learn even more tricks and prevent yourself from turning into a robot who simply executes the same patterns over and over again. You're already further though at this point then most people who already gave up on Sonic. You probably can't beat a decent MK... yet. There is still hope though. Even against the campiest of opponents you can learn to punish them for making careless mistakes.
So 4 stocks = more time for your opponent to learn your style and more changes you have to make which is even more work for sonic than he already has.

And as for Mr. Malcom's comment

That G&W knows how to play against sonic. but the sonic knows how to play against G&W. u should learn how 2 as well.


edit: I lost to inui. Game 3 last stock 100%+. All my opponents in these vids have played me at least 30 times.
How 2 Lose Against Sonic (ZOMG!)
This might seem trivial but perhaps after reading this you can understand more about why you're winning when you play as Sonic. Opponents who allow themselves to be intimidated by Sonic's speed and fail to realize that most of their attacks eat through Sonics will have a very frustrating time. Don't put up a "brick wall", keep spamming your spot dodge / air dodges and let Sonic bait you into making foolish attacks and you're well on your way to losing.
First game and watch match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZMuACATcWc&feature=related

So at 5 seconds he lets you run past him... fine let's pretend that didn't happen even though Game and watch has some of the longest lasting/disjointed hitboxes. Not to mention he actually got a dair off on you.

29 seconds he runs away from you
44 seconds he trys to edge hog ... a sonic?
1min to 1:10 he tries over 5 smash attacks with hopes you'll run into him
Game and watch loses his first stock at 1:34 because he refuses to use a fair or bair and instead tries to run at you... to probably smash attack
1:43 those amazing hitboxes of his aerials aren't going to be used again cause he wants to time a smash attack against your spin dash at point blank range.

I was very impressed by the footstool combo at 1:54

2:13 he lets you run right past him and you nail him with a fsmash
^puffball taught me this one by showing me replays against a MK we both would play.

For your whole last stock he tried smash attacking you when you were most likely to low for it to amount to anything and for the entire match he was diminishing his smash attack strength

Watch the first 30 seconds of this and then the first 30 seconds of the match I described.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AixRN5Lbm_I

Playing against someone's character over 30 times means squat if that player isn't actively trying to change their game to suit their current opponent... part of the reason why many people have such a distaste for play as Sonic.

We can argue all day about who went up against the better game and watch, part of the problem is that I made some really stupid choices in those matches of mine that resulted in KO's (or SDs)... but the fact remains that I could not rack up consistent damage on him.

You've got skills with Sonic, I'm not denying that, but I just have a problem with someone coming in and saying OMG this guy is awesome and look he beat a snake and G&W in a tournament! Tournaments are full of bad players. Some people that have never been to live events have it in their head that all tournament players are awesome. "If they go to tournaments they have to be good." False.

Finally going back to the original discussion about Sonic predictability... InfernoHit did not have to make any drastic changes to his playing style. He had up a wall that I was unable to climb/break down/insert your metaphor here. Sonic can't do that... and that's why you'll know when someone knows how to play a sonic.

Don't even get me started on that Snake and his sonic match up knowledge.... he's running and rolling away from your spin attacks Malcom. He must think he's got Captain Falcon's priority or something.
 

BlueTerrorist

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You're all doing it wrong!! (Kid, what you said applies to every other character.)

@Malcolm
Very good Sonic, however I have a few gripes (Your Sonic reminds me of Tenki).

1. I like how you use your feints. Just don't do it too much, just reminding you.

2. There was so many times where you could have killed your opponent. Also, use tilts more often, it's good. It's up to you to review your vids.

If you're gonna move around alot, may I suggest you throw some spinshots in there.

Learn more of Sonic's options to get a KO, you can do it. Now I see why D1 talks about your Sonic. You put up a good show but, it needs to be a bit more polished.

Great Sonic overall, definitely one of the best I've seen out of the tri-state.
 

JayBee

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Malcolm.

I was supposed to ditto him at Mineola.

:093:

what happened? you had too much lag? u know what im talkin about...

Man, this makes me cry tears of steak, to see these vids. I play so much alike him, except I DDP more and my edgegame is different. I'll work more of that f-throw mindgame too; i really thought that throw was useless... wrongo!

I also agree with tenki about the convergence on what may be in the future considered "true" advanced sonic play in tourneys. I feel that slowly but surely sonic is being brought in tourneys by good players and hopefully it would affect the conception of sonic on the tier list (this is wishful thinking; though it wouldn't change my stand on the character) RATS, Mr.3000, Malcolm, Tenki, Boxob, and Myself each possess elements that are very much similar: they all play with multiple playstlyes of sonic. They all have a solid understanding of the characters they are playing against, probably by either playing as them or playing agaisnt them a million times. They can mindgame and manipulate the opponent's tnedancy to airdodge. And they have mastered the run and spin setups to the point of individuality.

The main differences to me, seem to lie in the throws, the edgegame, and the love of the spring and what manner to use it. I think they all know about the predicability factor (someone mentioned it earlier) and I appreciate the fact that Sonic can probably the least predictable character in the game..
 

Tenki

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this must mean everything else that was in my WoT must have been completely accurate seeing as you didnt stop to comment on it
right lol

buut, the main point was this:
3000 was the first one you saw with videos....
:bee:

we (combination of me and CaliburChamp) brought up spin charge --> retreating footstool --> spin charge --> footstool as the Sonic "Shuttle loop" a looong time ago lol.


The first couple matches of Mr.3000 made everyone go: NO way! He's winning w/OUT ANY ATs!
lol sort of --- his first recorded matches were before the surge of "using cancels in your game!!?!?"

:3


vids and stuff

We can argue all day about who went up against the better game and watch, part of the problem is that I made some really stupid choices in those matches of mine that resulted in KO's (or SDs)... but the fact remains that I could not rack up consistent damage on him.

You've got skills with Sonic, I'm not denying that, but I just have a problem with someone coming in and saying OMG this guy is awesome and look he beat a snake and G&W in a tournament! Tournaments are full of bad players. Some people that have never been to live events have it in their head that all tournament players are awesome. "If they go to tournaments they have to be good." False.
right lol. I had a feeling that anyone who ever wanted to go to tournaments were like, super-read-up on their metagame so I worked really hard to 'catch up' to them. Heck, I was nervous before my last tourney because people were actually talking about tiers and priority and AT's. I was like "OHSHI- PEOPLE MIGHT KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING!"
Except for one really awesome Kirby main, who I believe was the best player there, I 2-3stocked everyone up until the final match, where I was taken to one stock, just because I wanted to take the Snake up to 240% for an amazing showoffy U-throw kill. :dizzy:

Finally going back to the original discussion about Sonic predictability... InfernoHit did not have to make any drastic changes to his playing style. He had up a wall that I was unable to climb/break down/insert your metaphor here. Sonic can't do that... and that's why you'll know when someone knows how to play a sonic.

Don't even get me started on that Snake and his sonic match up knowledge.... he's running and rolling away from your spin attacks Malcom. He must think he's got Captain Falcon's priority or something.
Well, what Umbreon (was it him?) of SBR said about just throwing out attacks and pretending Sonic doesn't have any hitboxes is sort of true. It's one of the most effective ways to fight Sonic if you have low-lag lingering aerials. However, your match wasn't exactly a complete video to 'prove' the statement correct. Like you said, you made some really stupid choices. Your vids were from the summer, and there were alot of pauses (not the literal pauses lol) in your game, and you tried to spindash through everything and that led to the 30 seconds of wtf that you suggested we watch, when you could have taken advantage of running away from or at least dodging/rolling away from his attacks.

@__@; I guess both videos are flawed- both losing parties in the video didn't know how to fight the matchup very well.
 

ShadowLink84

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Not really/ iof you just toss out your attacks randomly and ignore Sonic's hitboxes, it really doesn't work. porimarily ebcause I find myself able to go through most of their moves as soon as they finish.

I did it to a Marth in ryko's tournament. He would use double Fairs's I would retreat and as soon as he would land, rush in and grab him. Just do an MKa nd wait for the landing lag.
Its not as easy to go after him durnig retreating Fairs. Too difficult.
 

Tenki

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Not really/ iof you just toss out your attacks randomly and ignore Sonic's hitboxes, it really doesn't work. porimarily ebcause I find myself able to go through most of their moves as soon as they finish.

I did it to a Marth in ryko's tournament. He would use double Fairs's I would retreat and as soon as he would land, rush in and grab him. Just do an MKa nd wait for the landing lag.
Its not as easy to go after him durnig retreating Fairs. Too difficult.
Well, what Umbreon (was it him?) of SBR said about just throwing out attacks and pretending Sonic doesn't have any hitboxes is sort of true. It's one of the most effective ways to fight Sonic if you have low-lag lingering aerials.
Marth's aerials don't linger though :3

Anyway, if they resort to throwing out attacks, you should resort to punishing moves or just going hit-and-run. When they resort to shielding and dodging, then you have the momentum, and you play accordingly.

Because, if you think about it, it's kind of like a rock-paper-scissors deal, where:
(you attack aggressively) < (opponent throws out attacks)
(opponent attacks) < (you punishing ending/startup/landing lag)
(you looking to punish attacks) < (campy playstyle that reacts with "defensive moves" based off of shield button)
("defensive" opponent) < (you attacking aggressively, taking advantage of their defense)

There is a hole in there, but it's up to us, the players, to hide the hole and draw the opponent away from it as much as possible through varying playstyles.
 

JayBee

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a lot of people think that sonic sucks so bad that all u need to do is sit there and spam priority, when that will only work if the sonic player runs into it often. I tell u guys, snakes, GWs...the game styles look so predictable compared to sonic its ridculous.
 

SothE700k

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What I liked about the videos the most was that there was very good reading and spacing going on. Some cool tricks with the SD and SC too. I noticed the up-b to auto canceled d-air started to get predictable (MK was there in a hurry to nail him) but those SCs and SDs to homing attack came out when you least expected it. *whew*
Its safe to say Malcolm definitely knew what he was doing, no questions asked.
 

ShadowLink84

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Marth's aerials don't linger though :3

Anyway, if they resort to throwing out attacks, you should resort to punishing moves or just going hit-and-run. When they resort to shielding and dodging, then you have the momentum, and you play accordingly.

Because, if you think about it, it's kind of like a rock-paper-scissors deal, where:
(you attack aggressively) < (opponent throws out attacks)
(opponent attacks) < (you punishing ending/startup/landing lag)
(you looking to punish attacks) < (campy playstyle that reacts with "defensive moves" based off of shield button)
("defensive" opponent) < (you attacking aggressively, taking advantage of their defense)

There is a hole in there, but it's up to us, the players, to hide the hole and draw the opponent away from it as much as possible through varying playstyles.
So basically you took what I said, and added to it. =p
 

Tenki

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a lot of people think that sonic sucks so bad that all u need to do is sit there and spam priority, when that will only work if the sonic player runs into it often. I tell u guys, snakes, GWs...the game styles look so predictable compared to sonic its ridculous.
Exactly.

(you attack aggressively) < (opponent throws out attacks)
(opponent attacks) < (you punishing ending/startup/landing lag)
(you looking to punish attacks) < (campy playstyle that reacts with "defensive moves" based off of shield button)
("defensive" opponent) < (you attacking aggressively, taking advantage of their defense)
You attacking gets beaten out by opponent throwing out attacks. But that's "countered" by sitting back and punishing ending/startup/landing lag instead of running head-on ino the attacks. With some characters, that part of it is harder than others.

But when your opponent is pressured, either by tournament pressure or from your mental pressure, you have the momentum and can probably go all-out.

So basically you took what I said, and added to it. =p
kind of. I was kinda in disagreement about the Marth thing, because Marth's hitboxes don't linger like GAW's, so after you shield the initial hit, you can go after his vulnerability time.
 

ShadowLink84

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Exactly.



You attacking gets beaten out by opponent throwing out attacks. But that's "countered" by sitting back and punishing ending/startup/landing lag instead of running head-on ino the attacks. With some characters, that part of it is harder than others.

But when your opponent is pressured, either by tournament pressure or from your mental pressure, you have the momentum and can probably go all-out.


kind of. I was kinda in disagreement about the Marth thing, because Marth's hitboxes don't linger like GAW's, so after you shield the initial hit, you can go after his vulnerability time.
You don't even ened to Tenki. While his moves don't linger he does have a moment of cooldown time that you can exploit. Its just difficult and not very safe to do <_<
 

Napilopez

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Hmm, about the convergence, I mean, I'm not totally sure. I think that Sonic just has sooo many options sometimes that its hard to even use them all in a single game, which is why I think playstyles vary so much. But I guess you're right about using certain moves in certain situations and stuff. But thats more of an issue of playing smartly than converging playstyles me thinks.

Like for example, Boxob is uber agro, with boxob airs galore.

Pheonix dark is pretty aggro from when I've played him, and also loves his bairs, but he doesn't seem to make as many careless mistakes and Boxob =P.

Espy is just crazy with hsi grabs and precision gameplay overall, and he like, never ever stops moving. But he lets himself run into some attacks that he shouldnt sometimes. Or at least he did before *coughnadocough* =P

Kinzer is auto-awesome for playing with Wiimote alone.

I'm probably one of the least ASC heavy Sonic's on the board. My playstyle fluctuates alot though. But you'll see me recover from below like 80% of the time.

Malcom has crazy dash mindgames.

3000 is now Mr I can cancel ASC and I'm awesome

Wes can combo in brawl.

I feel like each of us has some sort of defining charactaristic or tricksies. that makes our Sonic's quite unique. I like that. You can't say that about much of the top/high tier I feel. Like in my experience, I beat MKs pretty darn well, because I find MK in general is quite a predictable character. The thing is, even if you cna predict, his attacks are so quick its exceedingly hard to counter them. Which is why its a good thing I main Sonic =P
 

da K.I.D.

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when i said that with 4 stocks sonic would be a legitamate lowtier character, what i meant was that he would actually suck and be low tier, as opposed to to just being low tier cus nobody likes the actual character.

you guys act like i said something wrong, all i said was that 3000 was the first one that i saw implement the sonic shuttle loop that i saw in a video of a tourney match...

i didnt say he was the first one to do it, nor did i say he was the first one to think of it. all i said what that he was the first one i saw. so i dont understand why you quote my exact words and act like i said something wrong...

and to all of the people that think that drastically changing your game once and maybe even twice per stock has to be done by all characters...
no
thats why the snake boards are so dead, all it is is,
"how do i win this matchup?"
"camp with grenades and space with f-tilt"
"how do i win this matchup?"
"camp with grenades and space with f-tilt"
"how do i win this matchup?"
"camp with grenades and space with f-tilt"

they dont have to do anything different.
in brawl this is what seperates bad characters from good characters...
the good characters have something busted and broken that they can spam to win.
the bad characters are forced to implement their entire moveset.
D3: camp with side b and shield and spam down throw.
Falco: camp with lasers, and down throw alot
Marth: camp with f-air. punish mistakes with side b

the closest thing we have to something that spamable is back air, and half the time we even have to mindgame that to hit with it...

lol
im proly the least aggressive sonic, i seem to focus much more on using my range (when spaced well its halfway decent)and spins to punish people doing their moves
 

Napilopez

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they dont have to do anything different.
in brawl this is what seperates bad characters from good characters...
the good characters have something busted and broken that they can spam to win.
Trufax.

the closest thing we have to something that spamable is back air, and half the time we even have to mindgame that to hit with it...
Spam sidetaunt.

=P no but seriously thats one of the things that makes Sonic hard to be good with. Everything has to be a smart specfic move choice pretty much. Whilst D3 is like "lolz iz big and can chain grab you 4eva+2".
 

Tenki

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in brawl this is what seperates bad characters from good characters...
the good characters have something busted and broken that they can spam to win.
the bad characters are forced to implement their entire moveset.
It's funny though, alot of people who main a "good" character learn exactly that.
And just that.

I'm not sure if it's more of a temporary thing or if it's like this everywhere, but alot of the people who main good characters tend to be worse players. I noticed that the other side of the brackets in the last tourney I went to had MK, Dedede, and Snake players. The MK players were the worst, with some of them not having played Brawl for months, yet knocking out some of the 'better' players on their side of the brackets who didn't know the matchup well enough. The Dedede/Snake players just did their thing and out-tiered the other characters. Meanwhile, I ran into a good player who mained Kirby, and he was my toughest match there.

Of course, once in a while, you'll have a good player+good character combination, and they do amazing things.

:dizzy: tier bandwagoners are annoying.

Spam sidetaunt.
lol I actually did taunt mid-match against some of the people. gaddd i took such advantage of pressure. such a jerk.
 

Jim Morrison

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I'm not sure if it's more of a temporary thing or if it's like this everywhere, but alot of the people who main good characters tend to be worse players. I noticed that the other side of the brackets in the last tourney I went to had MK, Dedede, and Snake players. The MK players were the worst, with some of them not having played Brawl for months, yet knocking out some of the 'better' players on their side of the brackets who didn't know the matchup well enough. The Dedede/Snake players just did their thing and out-tiered the other characters. Meanwhile, I ran into a good player who mained Kirby, and he was my toughest match there.
Well durr, why do you think they need to main MK. They're too scared by low tier players to go there. Low tier main + high tier char = awesome. ****ty high tier main + high tier char = Necassary to win. ****ty high tier main + low tier char = LOLOLOL. Good high tier main + low tier char = YOU. Good high tier main + high tier char = M2K.
 

da K.I.D.

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It's funny though, alot of people who main a "good" character learn exactly that.
And just that.
if you do it right, thats all you need... if you are good enough at timing your grenades and controlling the stage and getting the maximum spacing out of your f-tilt, you WILL win with snake...
 

JayBee

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here's the story.

what I mean when I say style convergence, is that now, at this point in sonic's game, well... since the game came out, many people tried to take sonic different ways and using different methods to make him good. But now, in November,a few of those sonics, who stayed with him since the beginning, though starting out in different paths or "styles, "are now reaching the same conclusions concerning proper sonic play and it shows in their similarities. U even have people (who we know are good) say, "hey, that guy kinda reminds me of my sonic, except that..." I think that now, more than ever, we are really reaching a definate conclusion on the Sonic meta, and even its at a small scale right now, its beginning to impact tournaments.

I give at least another year before Sonic actually makes more noise than people cared to give credit for in April, for example.
 

Napilopez

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what I mean when I say style convergence, is that now, at this point in sonic's game, well... since the game came out, many people tried to take sonic different ways and using different methods to make him good. But now, in November,a few of those sonics, who stayed with him since the beginning, though starting out in different paths or "styles, "are now reaching the same conclusions concerning proper sonic play and it shows in their similarities. U even have people (who we know are good) say, "hey, that guy kinda reminds me of my sonic, except that..." I think that now, more than ever, we are really reaching a definate conclusion on the Sonic meta, and even its at a small scale right now, its beginning to impact tournaments.

I give at least another year before Sonic actually makes more noise than people cared to give credit for in April, for example.
Ahh, I like this. I concurify.

I remember posting like a month or so ago a question about, what IS Sonic's metagame? Like so many other chars have a player or 2 representing the character played to its current best, but we never really had that with Sonic. Some of the best Sonic mains didn't make use of techniques we'd learned, and those of us who knew the techs weren't good enough players. Now it truly does feel like we are reaching a metagame with Sonic. That doesn't mean it won't continue to evolve, but at least now it feels like the top Sonics are somewhat on the same page, even if their playstyles differ immensely.
 

aeghrur

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We're starting to converge, but there's still DRASTIC differences.
Remember Kojin's thread(maybe dNes?) on player playstyle? Yeah, that's still going on right now. Sonic still has multiple playstyles of aerial, ground, punishment, agro, tech/AT, and spin/fakes. :) I love that about sonic and I think it's one the most defining aspects about him.
 

da K.I.D.

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1. say that a while ago when we did the snake discussion, i said that said snake can do explosions and physical moves at the same time, and i was argued with. i gave the example of snake up tilting you into a falling mortar, and i was met with, "thatll never happen to a good sonic" to those of you that said that, please rewatch the second vid.
I might have been one of the ones who argued against that happening in a practical situation.
At low%'s, a grounded Sonic can airdodge between mortar and U-tilt, unless you come in at such a timing/placement so that they're together.
In this video, he was caught by U-tilt after a whiffed aerial, and at a kill% anyway, so the mortar didn't really matter much. :dizzy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtcUsZ04BAg&feature=related
im going to run this into the ground.

ps. i advise anyone who wants to get good at this game watch all of the vids from C3 just click on the name of the user who posted this linked vid
they are amazing
 

thecatinthehat

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lol I'm maad late. Oh wells.

I like Malcolm's playstyle quite alot. I've ditto'd him before. He won most of the matches.

I just don't quite agree with his b-air game.

In instances where I would've b-aired, he would side-b instead.

And I spinshot alot more.

:093:
 

ShadowLink84

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I played malcolm at Inui's tournament (friendly) and played him again on the next day in ryko's tournament.
I won the friendly that Saturday but lost the tournament match. he really is an extremely good Sonic and I think the only reason I really won, is primarily because I was Sonic and have the same mobility so the margin of error on my part is bigger than other characters.

Frightening mindgames I wish he lived in Ny so i could play him in a friendly sometime.

As for AN, there is an ASSload of DDD's. Seriously.
 

thecatinthehat

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im in NY like every weekend. jus go to events/smashfests and im there. ill b @ bums weekly most likely. NJ smash scene jus isnt as much fun.
Off topic for realz,

Yo Malcolm I was at your hood like last friday.

I went to the City.

Ended up in Jersey.

I ask my uncle, "What part of Jersey is this?"

South Orange. I was like "WHHAATT??"

:093:
 

MalcolmM

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i have no idea...isnt there supposed to b some tourney uniting all of NY? if that goes down plz believe ill b there. otherwise im gonna have to see who else in interested...are there any trains i can take that someone would pick me up from or are close to the venue?
 
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