Curtains! The Zelda Performance Thread! Critics Welcome~

[Rizen]

GGs the lag was heavy but at least it didn't spike. The big thing to watch out for is you're using upB to get across the stage and that's very unsafe. Ganon smashed you out of that a lot. The lag prevented some punishes but I got you a lot with that. Be careful of rolling into me too; if I use a long lasting hitbox it easily punishes that.

From 50-100%ish (depending) Dtilt will combo into it's self. The opponent can DI away but will take damage. Finish with a Dsmash, it's probably the best.
Careful with your spacing, you'd jump into me a lot and if I read it right I could counter or 'Fortress' with Bowser which has invincibility.
The lag promoted a lot of smashes and hurt precision things like lightning kicks but a lot of your attacks were hoping I'd run into them (or drop into them). You saw vs Ganon how I stalled and punished with downB or Dair. You need to read my actions and 2nd jump and not throw out Usmash so easily.

It was hard to time stuff in the lag and we had to guess and spam a bit. GGs still . Work on delaying attacks, faking for mindgames, Dtilt lock stuff, reading my DI for follow ups, and being safer with rolls, upB.

I can upload some of those if you'd like.

 

[BryceX]

Lesson learned about teleporting to get around the stage. I find one of the hardest things about using Zelda is lack of approach. It's just hard to get "up and close" to an enemy, especially when you're being juggled around stage. It's almost a feeling of helplessness. Thank you so much for the critique.

It would also be great if you could just upload one or two of those videos, if it isn't too much trouble!

 

[Rizen]

Lesson learned about teleporting to get around the stage. I find one of the hardest things about using Zelda is lack of approach. It's just hard to get "up and close" to an enemy, especially when you're being juggled around stage. It's almost a feeling of helplessness. Thank you so much for the critique.

It would also be great if you could just upload one or two of those videos, if it isn't too much trouble!

Lol, that's a big problem for Zelda :/ she has trouble approaching and her slow fall gets juggled. She's ranked 2nd worst character and has many bad MUs.

I'll upload a few of those; it will take a few hours so later tonight or tomorrow I'll post them

 

[Rizen]

Double posting for critiquing convenience :/ (sue me)

Bryce Zelda vs Rizen...
Bowser
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcUM8IShr6U

 

[BryceX]

Double posting for critiquing convenience :/ (sue me)

Bryce Zelda vs Rizen...
Zelda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsICIpbBs_I
Ganon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9AUSEWI0y8
Bowser
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcUM8IShr6U

Re-watching these really confirms that teleporting too much is really, really, really bad.

 

[Alacion]

Super quick, 5 minute post.

First video:

Hm you guys are using Farore's as a landing option. I noticed Japanese MKs do that with Dimensional Cape... Zelda does have hitboxes upon appearing but has lag. Perhaps this is something to consider because you could teleport in many directions, but diagonally right, left, and directly downwards increasing your chance of a somewhat safe landing.

Bryce, like half the time you roll to be on the opposite side of Rizen so much. Watch out for that because eventually, Rizen's just gonna charge a fsmash in the other direction You're also unnecessarily wasting a second jump to recover when you don't need to either.

Rizen, you like to ledge drop, to jump -> airdodge/fair to recover from the ledge. Regular get up is really underused (imo) and get-up attack can be deceptively good. Overall, pretty solid and not much to really comment on.

Just a general thing I noticed that Rizen wasn't really the aggressor and he really punished Bryce's mistakes. Bryce, try reversing the roles and I'm sure the next game will be closer.

Random tidbit, Zelda's close-mid range Din's Fire can be cancelled out with Zelda's dair... lol.

Second video:

Yeah that Farore's thing is not to be used the way you use it. Zelda really shouldn't be approaching but unfortunately, she is left without a choice sometimes. Work on your recover and stop rolling. Rolling is an awesome strategic thing to do but not something to be used constantly. Consider running to safety instead.

Third video:

You reduced your rolling and played much better than the last two games (imo). When you're hit by a move, don't airdodge because she has faster options. Zelda's bair will come out the soonest so you can start momentum cancelling right after sooner. Again, don't waste your second jump unless you're sure you can get away with it. When landing, you don't always need to put hitboxes out. Landing to safety may be better, especially when Rizen was up b-ing to respond against repeated attacking landings.

Yeah, nice start and keep playing. I'm actually considering using Zelda/Sheilda next tourney because everybody and their mother has practised the Peach matchup in this week's reading break... (mine's not until next month). I need to practise characters that aren't viable on Wifi like Sheik!

 

[lucha5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU0UlnQhPa0&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU91-MMICSo&feature=g-all-u
Me VS Keitaro

Also, this is the same match with a time marker though : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU91-MMICSo&feature=player_detailpage#t=66s

http://youtu.be/xeiNuv6JKdY

and

http://youtu.be/SsHbm2pxX2k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3D8oWKymp8&sns=em

Me vs Mampam


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeiglMibH-I&sns=em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emaaN3IpKyQ&sns=em

Me vs ChoZoX


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umPzA2zsTCU&sns=em

Me vs Mampam

Some doubles sets from Mega Mass Madness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl3QD7sLlDk VS Snake and Meta
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvqtQHdwqDI VS Diddy and Meta
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0BGCDg6Xj4 VS Meta and Pit and Wario (Loser's finals)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrxuwVli5hY VS Snake and Falco mostly (Grand Finals)

On the player cam I don't really show up since I was to the side. = P

Hey guys I came across those matches where fuujin played luckay.

If anyone's interested you can find them here:

#1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sNIf3nNIbU

#2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSeW5hUFJCM

So are you ever going to update this thread or...?

 

[Alacion]

Well, since you were so kind as to gather all the videos for me, I updated the thread. I lost the links to two previously posted videos... I'm guessing it is a result of the switching forums or something. It also takes much longer to update now...

 

[BryceX]

Rizen, do you mind removing two of the videos (Zelda vs. Zelda, Zelda vs. Ganondorf)? I realized how incredibly stupid I looked for rolling that much... I'm pretty sure I broke the habit, so the videos are a little embarrassing. I hope it's not too much trouble!

 

[Rizen]

No problem. Sometimes it's good to see something and be aware of it then move on.

 

[Alacion]

Don't be embarrassed. You should be proud that you're even using Zelda. I mean, nobody here is going to look down on you and whatnot.

Quick, somebody convince me to go pure Zelda tomorrow in a local tournament consisting of 50%+ Meta Knights tomorrow!

 

[Rizen]

Go Zelda, you got this!

 

[BryceX]

No problem. Sometimes it's good to see something and be aware of it then move on.

Exactly. Thank you!

 

[Alacion]

Yeah! I was watching my only streamed game and noticed how many bad habits and predictable moves I did. But yeah it's whatever, and I'll keep it in mind for next time.

Teaser video: http://www.twitch.tv/captainlpika/b/373205269 (just kidding, internet was really bad during my stream games)

Here's the only singles game that was recorded: http://www.twitch.tv/captainlpika/b/373207617
Doubles: http://www.twitch.tv/captainlpika/b/373118398 (8:47, 21:00, 31:50)

It sounded like I was playing at an airport or something.

There were games saved on other Wiis but they may never see the light of internet. Critique please, or don't.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I didn't think those were bad at all. In your teams matches I thought you did well but try to avoid getting crowded. That's where you took the brunt of your damage.

I couldn't make the singles work for me. It was all broken up.

also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXCD4HzOsJU Daisy
Finally taking some lumps in this MU lol.

 

[Mocha]

Enjoyed the vid, Ed, though I had to laugh a bit at all the F-smash - because I know this is how the MU is. Now you can see why I keep arguing for this MU to be like as one of our worst when you fight an ICs that can chaingrab. I can't even imagine what you can do on stages like FD. Anyway, on to comments for the video:

- Watch your air dodges. I know at times, it can be inevitable, but he caught you several times from punishing your air dodges. I am definitely guilty of an air dodge habit, so I know, believe me.

- I noticed you liked to Down Tilt right after a F-smash on multiple occasions. This isn't a bad option but he punished you at least twice from that, after he caught on. Frankly, I get scared of using her Down Tilt vs ICs because it is possible to shield grab - and if I do catch them in a lock, I try to finish my followup as fast as possible.

- Great stuff with the recovery, and not getting punished when recovering back to the stage. And nice platform canceling, lol.

Look forward to more stuff. I literally cringed and went 'nooo' whenever ICs grabbed you, like as if it were me playing xD

 

[Kataefi]

can the ics punish jab??? could be worth mixing that up with fsmash!

 

[Alacion]

Personally I think this MU is unwinnable and I see much more mistakes from the ICs player tbh. There are somethings he can exploit, like dash grabbing when he runs and shields. He runs and shields a lot. Also he might want to platform camp more, if he can get ICs in the air, that's when they are most vulnerable.

Does that help? That came from the man who played my Zelda since I first started playing Brawl competitively.

I think Jab is just as bad as Fsmash if not worse. I think Zelda has a good tool in Din's to deal with a defending/desynch ICs but then that makes them approach which makes things significantly worse. I'm surprised he didn't punish your spotdodging. That shieldbreak punish was not the best decision either. A charged anythingsmash would have done similar percent and kept you safe.

 

[Rizen]

Brawl is so shield and grab based. There's no shame in low tiers losing to ICs; that 1 grab costing a stock makes the MU a royal pain.

Isn't Zelda one of the easiest characters for ICs to CG?

 

[Alacion]

Mhm Zelda is pretty easy to chaingrab.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Thanks for the critiques and everything guys.

@Mocha, yea when I went back to the video and watched it for the first time I was all "damn I could've done so many things better". At the same time, Daisy did a great job making life difficult.

@Aleate, wait, did Big D type that about this match lol? I agree completely about what I did with the shieldbreak. I was looking for a trip from one to separate them with Ftilt. Unfortunately it blew up in my face lol. Also, timely spotdodges lol. I got lucky with some. Sometimes it works lol.

@Kata: jab makes you dead sadly. Not enough pushback.

@Rizen: of course there is some shame, I don't like to lose lol. Having no shame means you settle, and you just can't settle. At least, that's how I feel about it

 

[Alacion]

Yeah I just copy pasted what he said.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

More vids!! These were especially fun. Critique away!

http://youtu.be/znfANQcMiFE vs RedHalberd

 

[Alacion]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJnVLvrZNiQ

Seriously looking for a critique for this. I know there's so much to improve on.

Definitely seeing impatience and over committing on my part and my opponent's knowledge of the Zelda matchup. I also thing I should have CP'd Yoshi's. I said I'd go Peach next time but I'm really feeling Zelda, haha.

Also, how do I land? Lol.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

This is based off the first game. I think you could utilize dash attack more. Times where you went for a dash grab after spaced Fairs and stuff, you could have thrown in a dash attack for sure damage. Grabs are great, and I know I'm guilty of grabbing too much but sometimes DA is just a better choice so think about utilizing it some. As far as landing, from what I saw saw, the common option I saw from you was airdodging to the ground near MK. It's nice when he misses but often he won't, so I recommend waiting for him to commit to an option and just going away from him and that option. You don't have to stay close to him, so just get out of there. Sometimes, against MK if he takes to the air, I would FW to the ground since he has slow airspeed. Probably the only time you can get away with something like that lol.

On the second game, there were better uses of the DA but try to limit them to his landings and punishes on some of his aerials. Rushing his shield with it got you hurt quite a bit. You were playing pretty well on Siege but I feel like you got a bit flustered when you almost died to the Dtilt lock he had on you. MK is pretty scary on the 2nd transformation so try to make some space and minimize damage on that portion. His disjoints will more than often beat ours on the statues or at worst trade; gimmicking him with long lasting smash attacks on statues is tough. Also, as a tip, if you can create space, try staling your dtilt on the statues. You will have fresh kill moves and a stale combo starter which works wonders for killing anyone! Towards the end, I saw the landing issues surface again and I can only sympathize because I know its tough. I won't lie, landing his probably one of the hardest things and you have to be willing to eat some damage sometimes. On those times, if you cannot avoid it, try trading with kicks. It'll make them a tad more tentative to committing.

One last thing overall, you used Dsmash just about more than every move. While I can understand since it's MK and you need a quick move more often than not, try replacing a few of those Dsmashes with Dtilt, with intent on capitalizing on a trip. You get more damage and keep Dsmash fresher, which kills pretty early on MK. Hope this all helps ya man.

 

[Alacion]

Thanks a lot for that. Really appreciate that and I'm going to back to the lab on Saturday

I dsmash and/or spotdodge a lot as a panic move. It's a new habit of mine I should really stop. Next time, I'm taking him to Yoshi's. It seems like Zelda loses to MK in the first two transformations? I mentioned it before but I noticed a lot of Japanese MKs use Dimensional Cape as a "safe" landing option. I should try that with Farore's like you suggest...

For entertainment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmzhRHeFzFU

I hate this matchup and I don't know if I want to use Zelda against Diddy anymore Looking back, I can't help but chuckle at the fact that I don't even care about % damage and I just blindly go in.

 

[Rizen]

^Good work . Lol "roll to down smash, 2008 rapin"

 

[Alacion]

Haha Captain L's commentary is pretty funny at times

 

[Rizen]

I might as well post some...
vs Marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEF9WnAYyzQ
vs Link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FFv1v4Mjg0

 

[Fluttershy]

Only doing Marth since I've played someone that uses him...
When you are on the edge try not to over commit too early. Jump back onto the edge a couple times and see if he does anything.
Watch your use of Din's when in close corners.
You got too predictable rushing up to him and using USmash mix it up a bit.

 

[Rizen]

Okay thanks . I'll work on those.
I tend to space with Din's; it works better on wifi but I do it too close.

 

[Alacion]

Rushing in with dash attack is probably the only way to get in. Rolling is fine, but you seem to always roll towards the opponent to punish.

 

[Rizen]

Marth's spacing is really hard to breach . ^Some of the rolls in the middle I was doing to bait action because I had the stock lead, more than actually approach (in' Marth).

We need moar Zelda vids! Zelda players are active so why isn't the vid thread?

 

[Alacion]

I have tried to get more replays but I honestly think people are conspiring to delete my replays! Just kidding...

Found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYM_SB-UtU8 but it's loldoubles.

Partner is a Melee player who doesn't even play Brawl

I don't think Zelda players are too active these days

 

[Luthien]

I might as well post some...
vs Marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEF9WnAYyzQ
vs Link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FFv1v4Mjg0

Hmm. It's been a while since I've popped by and I've got some time to spare, so here's my two cents!

Rizen, judging from these two videos, the single most beneficial thing you could do is add some variety to your approaches.

It seems your opponents have faced enough of your Zelda to know not to spot-dodge when you approach. Neither Se7en nor Kotierwolf spot-dodged once in either of these videos. This is good. You've got them so afraid of Zelda's usmash, they've trained themselves to hold shield and never let go when you approach, just in case that one last irritating hit catches them. Wifi exacerbates this problem for them as well, so they're likely to hold shield even longer than necessary.

It's your turn to exploit this. These guys both seem to be shielding/punishing your usmash/dash attack approaches pretty consistently (I'd guess 60-70% of the time), so now's the time to toss Zelda's grab into the mix. Yes, Zelda's grab is one of the worst in the game, and yes, using it as an approach is generally a really bad idea. But fundamentally, the best viable counter to the grab is the spot-dodge, and your Zelda has virtually taken that option out of the metagame. The way your opponents are playing at this point in time, Zelda's grab as an approach will catch them off guard. Also, on Wifi grabbing is still easy to reliably execute and slightly harder to punish, so really: grab more.

My next suggestion would be to approach less, and bait more.

Zelda isn't as good as baiting as Peach is, but thanks to some powerful disjointed hitboxes and a fast dsmash she can still get the job done. And literally anything is better than Zelda straight-up approaching. In these matches, I'm seeing a lot of rushing in with usmash/dash attack/sh-fair/nayru's love. You're committing really early in your engagements, and since Zelda's attacks all have so much lag this sort of strategy is really dangerous.

Instead of approaching conflicts of the mentality of "Oh, I really hope my move connects first," I suggest you start training with the mentality of "what can I trick him into doing, and how will I plant myself in a position to punish that choice?". In the match against Se7en, you run headfirst into an air-born Marth - on several occasions - with a fair/nair. Sometimes this works out in a trade for you (best-case scenario: 3:26), but most of the time it doesn't (see: 0:53, 1:32-1:35, etc.). In an airborn battle with Marth, a trade is pretty much the best you can hope for, so don't rush in.

You bait. He whiffs. You punish.

Okay so I wound up putting a lot more time into this than I thought I would but basically here's the short version of everything else:

1) I know you love it, but don't use Din's Fire so much when your opponent is anywhere within 3 rolls of you. That momentum boost in the air is fun, but at best they fall for the trap and get a whopping 11%, and at worst, they don't fall for it and take you for a ride. Zelda can't really afford that high of a risk for such a small reward, so start developing other traps instead.
2) Usmash out-of-shield. It's beautiful and easy enough to execute over wifi. I didn't see you use it once, and it's really one of Zelda's better tools.
3) Don't try to fight Marth in the air. His fair beats every arial you have (except uair) if he uses it properly.
4) Roll into your opponent less; it leaves you exposed if they don't do what you were expecting.
5) Roll away from your opponent less. It really limits your punishing options and your opponents are actually starting to use the predictability against you.
6) Just roll less. I really can't emphasize that enough. If you find yourself in a position where you feel you have to compulsively roll, you haven't thought and aren't thinking far enough ahead.

Wooooo wall of text but in summary:

Grab more.
Approach less.
Bait more.

Also, that sweet spot Fair against Marth's Fair @ 3:26...

 

[Alacion]

^Who are you and WHY haven't we met yet? (I'm from Vancouver too)

 

[Rizen]

Thanks everyone .
TBH I wasn't submitting for critiques since usually no one critiques anymore, lol. I was trying to get the video thread going again.

 

[Luthien]

^Who are you and WHY haven't we met yet? (I'm from Vancouver too)

Haha, I'm a bit of an oldie. I really only posted here back in 2007-2009, and when it became blatantly obvious that Zelda wasn't really ever going to get me anywhere competitively I kind of dropped the Smash scene for a while since I wasn't ever interested in other characters in this particular game. I still play Smash almost daily with my friends, and every once in a while I poke back in here to see what's up. I had some time and felt like contributing a bit last night, and it seems you guys have actually gotten a bit of momentum with this thread back in March (Brawl forums all over the internet are ghost towns compared to other games, sigh). So yeah, you probably haven't met me because I don't go to tourneys and I post like, once a year. ^_^

Also, technically I live in Surrey now, not Vancouver, but I work a lot in Vancouver so I just haven't bothered to change my location. Still, it's not far, so if you ever feel like a Zelda ditto over Wifi I am most definitely game!

 

[Alacion]

How about an offline game?

Tournament scene is active! There are two players from Surrey.

 

[Luthien]

Hey, I might just have to do that! I just quickly scanned the forums and found the B.C. monthlies thread, so I'm gonna go read up in there and find out the sitch. I figure anywhere in Burnaby/Coquitlam/Vancouver will work since I'll have to make the trek across the river anyway, so what's the difference?