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Victory is my Destiny - MK Video & Critique Thread

Lawn Chair

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Messages
321
Thanks for the critique, I disagree with a few things though.
-My name is pronounced as if you took the M in Meta and replaced it with a D - people in my scene sometimes say I'm whipping out the "Detta Knight". Everyone seems to find a different pronunciation for it. :T
-Throws in teams - I had port priority throughout the entire match, meaning any attack that hit both me and the person I grabbed would have ended favorably for me. I basically never use Uthrow; I can see the merits in teams but it's harder to organize a followup from your teammate. This was the first time we had teamed together and we had only done about 4 or 5 matches so far, so our communication wasn't always perfect.
-10:00 - "Sometimes when you do those types of reaction aerials, you don't want to jump with them". Not jumping before Bair or Nair in that position could literally cause me to die. Also, had I not jumped, I would've missed the aerial altogether; if you look closely you can see Marth's double jump ring coming out just as I hit him with Bair. And MK has more than enough of a recovery to waste one jump on a potential edgeguard.
-12:42 - Have you played a Toon Link before? Fair, Uair, and Dair all hit obscenely hard, especially on someone as light as MK.
-13:20 - I know how safe that UpB is, I practically invented it. That's one of the primary reasons why I wanted to strike to Dreamland, it's just harder to find good openings for it in doubles.

Grand finals was against the same team, I'll post when it's uploaded.
No matter what port you have uthrow is the overall is the better option since the main gimmick of teams is to 1v1 or 2v1. This throw is the undoubtedly the best out of all of them except In 2v1's or if you have alot of space between the other enemy teammate while your teammate keeps them busy while you down throw, fthrow, or bthrow

Do you know all of your recovery options? You have up-b reversed, Mach Tornado, side-b, and my secret recovery tool that I will release when I get my capture equipment. Or will I?

Fair and Dair have slow startup, why are you above toon link in the first place? Drift down to the ledge or dair back to the stage but not to hit toon link. To get back to the stage.

Proof of this?, if I recall you said that you have been playing since 3.0? I've use that exact same up-b.


Don't get fresh with me, I 4 stocked you at apex in the friendlies room. Bow down to your master.
 

dettadeus

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
1,954
Location
drowning in pixels
No matter what port you have uthrow is the overall is the better option since the main gimmick of teams is to 1v1 or 2v1. This throw is the undoubtedly the best out of all of them except In 2v1's or if you have alot of space between the other enemy teammate while your teammate keeps them busy while you down throw, fthrow, or bthrow

Do you know all of your recovery options? You have up-b reversed, Mach Tornado, side-b, and my secret recovery tool that I will release when I get my capture equipment. Or will I?

Fair and Dair have slow startup, why are you above toon link in the first place? Drift down to the ledge or dair back to the stage but not to hit toon link. To get back to the stage.

Proof of this?, if I recall you said that you have been playing since 3.0? I've use that exact same up-b.


Don't get fresh with me, I 4 stocked you at apex in the friendlies room. Bow down to your master.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ7k0Ecs3Pk&list=UUKpHf_HBPtmqxUFjS3MOqHQ

I made this video before they even fixed the landing detection on Shuttle Loop.

I would have been playing him as soon as 2.6 came out but I left for Japan right when he was announced and didn't get back until August. And I've been playing PM since 2.0 (when ROB came out).

No johns, you beat me at Apex, we should've gotten more matches in though. MK dittos are fun.
 
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Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
1,753
Location
Bonn, Germany
Wow that videos are a nice idea! You also have a good voice for it.
I agree with most of the points you made, but can also understand detta's points. About the throws it is probably the best to do the one your teammate expects for teamcombos, so synergy is everything again.
At 5:46 you say up-b is frame 7 grounded and frame 6 aerial but I think its frame 8 grounded and frame 7 aerial.
Was probably much work, the idea is definitely good!
Up-air OoS works on Toon Link btw but its kind of hard
 
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Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
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Jun 1, 2013
Messages
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Bonn, Germany
Hi @ breez breez
First, nice to see the training did improve you because this was clearly not a 4stock :)
My critique would be first (MK-specific) that you approach too much with dair instead of either going for a nair or mostly even better for a grab. The dair approach is unsafe and can get shieldgrabbed, crouchcancelled and punished and so on... The edgeguards where OK but also here I would use nair more. You mostly dropped edgeguards when you accidentally turned around and faired instead of bair after bairing before. The fair let him escape because it has less knockback and it is easier to DI. If you recognize you are facing the wrong direction for a bair go for a nair when edgeguarding. Also remind that MKs JC grab has a significanty higher range than the dash grab, its OK to dash grab if you know you will get it, but if its at the edge of getting it JC grab is better (I saw some flawed dash grabs). Combowise after some up-air chains you could have maximized the combos: If you are just a bit over the ground and the opponent is at low mid%s (like 40-60%) you can dair chain (which is as combo move actually decent, K9 uses it very well as example). On FD you should only do that if it will kill (which is hard on a fastfaller like Captain Falcon), but up-air combos into shuttle loop. If you do have platforms, you can use it more liberal because you don't get a big positional disadvantage then. As last combowise remark, if you see the next hit will be your last combo hit, nair is mostly the best because it is great apart from its ending lag but if you have to stop that combo here anyways, why not use it (same is true for bair, but comboing into dair needs a high % opponent because it has long startup in comparison to nair and the hitstun will sometimes not be enough). But the thing that cost you most where rather fundamental than character specific things. Just emphazize more not putting out hitboxes that won't limit your opponents optionage in a ration that it is worth the risk (if it won't hit, why do it?). There were a few up-smashs that fell into that category. Also some hits you ate could just be avoided, sometimes one concentrates too much on detail and forgets the obvious.
I hope that helps, you can tell me if you could improve from that advice. :)
Chesstiger2612
 

Lawn Chair

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Messages
321
Friendly match against our #1 PR player: BREEZ(mk) vs BLUNTED_OBJECT(falcon)

I've worked my *** off just to not get 4 stocked every match, hah. Let's see what 5 months of training has done, eh?

Any critique is much appreciated. Thanks!
I'll record my thoughts on your match after C.E.O is finished

Also if anyone wants to get on a skype call and watch together pm me for my info.
 

9bit

BRoomer
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Recently won PM singles in a Utah tourney & got some footage

Played 2 games of MK in winners finals against Ciz
http://www.twitch.tv/tsuteto/b/513330097?t=668m20s
(11:08:20)
Then went all MK for grand finals against Ciz. 5 games at this timestamp
http://www.twitch.tv/tsuteto/b/513330097?t=760m10s
(12:40:10)
Really fun stuff to watch man. I like your Meta Knight's style. Very exciting.

A couple of things I noticed:

Your Down-B's were a little janky, and not in a good way. Though I think a commentator said you had just started really working it into your game. A couple of times when you wanted to Down-B forward and grab the ledge, you held in too soon and did the attack facing inward instead of outward. Just a matter of not holding in too soon. I do it myself sometimes. There's so much time after the slash comes out, though. No rush.

And I would have liked to see a little more down-smash and f-smash.

But other than that, great stuff. Congrats on the win!
 

Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
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Ouh, forgot to watch the game when you posted it. You are one of the best MKs I've seen yet. I agree with 9bit's post. In Grand Finals his Fox was overaggressive and your punishes were precise, especially the nairs. Foxes against MK need to play M2K style to put up biggest resistance... Against Diddy, he played less mindless and now your nairs you just put out (which worked against Fox because he ran in) weren't that good. I would have gone for more grabs when he hadn't a banana and more for fakeouts baits with burning one jump more or less and nairing then otherwise. In some situations shuttle loops would also help mixing up but they weren't really needed in that MU (in some MUs they are essential for escapes etc.). Your edgeguarding was really good. Congratulations!
 

Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
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Watched your Winners Finals and Losers Finals set, pretty impressive. Here would be my notes:
You did some tech errors which cost you much, especially missed techs against Wolf's Link. Also there were some triangle jumps instead of WDs, keep in mind MK only has a 3-frame jumpsquat, so the inputs are faster than with most characters. Next thing would be the missed down-bs which are also costly. I would recommend just to test all kinds of angles, c-stick cancels and direction changes with it in training mode to get a feeling for the distance. For example the vertical distance you get by holding up/down during down-b over a period of time is much less than the vertical you get by holding left/right over the same time. More mixups in your OoS can help too, you were often sitting too long in your shield resulting in shield pokes. Possible are: Shuttle loop OoS, SH Up-air/Nair OoS, more WD OoS (replace some rolls with that) and IDCape (jump, down+b, slam c-stick, preferably forward, everything in quick succession) out of shield against opponents with slightly more distance. Your usage of frametraps, spot dodges and f-tilt (lol @ the commentators thinking it was your jab) was great, have to learn from it myself. Also against Wolf's Link, try to use the platforms more to your advantage. One Link-specific note is that he is very bad in his shield so for example nair (could be replaced with fair or up-air too) on shield -> grab is solid if you hit the nair barely before the l-cancel (he can't punish you, he could only spot dodge to escape but then just put a lasting hitbox out again, so maybe nair or up-smash or jab). Against Link you have to maneuver much in the air to avoid projectiles, it gets easierwith more platforms. Also the empty capes you used well against Zelda are working against Link because he has to shield, otherwise you strike, and he has slow OoS options. Be cautios not to use this trick against fast OoS characters, the reappearing is punishable then. Against Zelda you played the matchup mostly right (the general tips I gave still apply), maybe try to hit Din's with up-air when you are on the ledge. You can't shield pressure Zelda with aerials though because MK's aerials aren't good on shield and Zelda hasn't a freakin' slow grab like Link.
Congratulations to 3rd place and I'm sure you can get even better :)
 

sneakytako

Smash Lord
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Cincinnati OH
Learn to recover with something other than up-b. His neutral b is great to recover deep into the stage, down-b is great to grab the ledge.

You don't dash dance enough (or at all really). You almost never press back on the ground, although I know you don't want to give falco space you have to respect his space, or else your going to eat a ton a damage. There's this range that Falco wants to be at to SH dair approach you, you won't be able to punish OoS so you need to avoid this space better.

You need to edgeguard better. Falco's recovery is so bad you don't need to hit with a strong hitbox like bair or sweet spot nair. All you need to do is interrupt his recovery with a fair or a weak nair. Also grab the edge more, fsmash can't be your only edgeguard.
 
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Chesstiger2612

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Basically that plus move choice. You seem to do some moves that are in a way questionable or certain strategies which are often a good choice but not quite work in that specific situation.
 

Chesstiger2612

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Good game. The move choice was very good in many situations. I would maybe nair a bit more, sometimes a fair should have been replaced by a nair. Also shuttle loop has more potential than recovery, sometimes it would have helped you as OoS or combo finisher. Also be aware your dair has (even l-cancelled) much landing lag and gets countered hard by crouch-cancelling. Your combos were pretty good. Sometimes a bit more mindgames in the edgeguards would help, but one game isn't really enough to judge edgeguarding.
 

alphabattack

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
117
Thanks! I guess I approach with dair a little too much, but until my friends learn to counter it, I'll keep doing it. Then if they figure it out, I'll mix it up!
 

Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
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Thats a legit argument! Keep doing it if it works. If you play a person you don't know though (for example at all big tournaments), go for the objectively best first and adapt then, going for tricks/"gimmicks" then could result in an early disadvantage
 

9bit

BRoomer
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Bar Wars 2 - Squeak (MK) vs East Coast Eddie (Snake)


I really like Squeak's combos in this, especially his use of d-air. Also good down-B's, I like a Meta Knight who goes for down-B's.
 

Chesstiger2612

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@ Chexr Chexr Good games and congrats!
A few things I would have done different. A few things I would have done different.
When doing combos, you often did fairs also if you were at jump apex or even falling. The third hit is then likely to not connect, and the followups are almost impossible because the animation is still going and the opponent is out of hitstun pretty fast. I would go for more nair instead. Also don't be afraid to use shuttle loop a bit more, it is true that it won't cause big combos but it is fast and in some situations you would have ledge-cancelled it. The thing bothering most was the grab game. You pretty much used b-throw too much (except against Fox, that game was destruction). Up-throw has between ~50-100% a great followup game, nair, bair, jump-> up-air etc. Your d-throw followups could have also been better, dash in and regrab/down-smash/dc f-tilt seem best to me, in rare situations also nair, shuttle loop or side-b as read against techroll away.
Summed up, I like the way you played and maybe would have played out combo and grab game different.
 

Chexr

Smash Ace
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Thanks for watching the video Chess. I think I have a lot which I can improve on. I look back on my videos and find many mistakes. There were many missed combo opportunities against Slayer. He's a very good player and knows how to defend against what would normally be easy followups on someone else.

I play MK sort of like how I play Jigglypuff in melee. Trying to create a wall of safe moves rather than going for high risk high reward types of situations. When you are doing shuffled fairs you can pressure your opponents shield easily as it stabs. The range is very large, the recovery is quick and it's very safe. Nair will get you shield grabbed very easy but is very good in every situation. You can shuffle fairs and still get all the hits to come out, then follow up just as easily as you can if you hit with a nair.

The reason I don't use shuttle loop much is because unless you kill with it resets the neutral game. There's no way to follow up as it leaves you with a huge amount of landing lag. If you miss with shuttle loop then you're opponent should get a free punish on you plus now they have stage control. A lot of what I choose to do is dependent on stage control. I think it is more important to be in a dominant position with a back throw rather than getting that one extra hit of damage that an upthrow can bring. I will probably always try to throw the opponent off stage because you can get a lot of free damage ledge guarding or even get a low % kill. Again originally a jigglypuff player I'm very used to going for the off stage gimps. I think most characters can DI out of a lot of upthrow stuff too. I haven't done extensive testing with %s and stuff but upthrow and fthrow didn't seem very effective when I have tried using them before. I will go back and see if I can use them better.
 

Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
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As Meta Knight, you need to switch much between styles. The sh fair or retreating rar fair spacing is a great anti-approach and definitely one of MK's main tools. Even more important is to be able to switch fast between your styles. You should have a certain idea how to play the neutral in that specific matchup, for MK it differs more than for Jiggs where you play the neutral fairly the same most of the times. Then you have your combo-stance where you should just maximize followups. Normally, if you can't get followups anymore, you can still get techchases or even smaller positional advantages.
The main reason you can't play MK just in a Jiggs style is he hasn't that much shield damage on his aerials and he hasn't the range of Jiggs' bair. Against shield you need to rely on a mix of dashdance->grab and aerial maneouvering over your opponent, dairing if they drop the shield and just continue jumping and waiting their shield out otherwise. MK's aerials aren't really good on shield too. Summed up, MK's SHFFLing is good in combos/advantageous situations/anti-approaching, but for approaches you need to do something else (note that perfect bair on shield is +1 so that would be legit, same goes for perfect fair with -1 and shuttle loop is then quicker than shield grab).
Shuttle loop is sometimes needed to not get shieldgrabbed (so fast), and of course for kills it is great. Also note the hitbox stretches a bit so you might combo into shuttle loop when you couldn't combo into other moves. If you can choose between a e.g. nair or shuttle loop punish though, I would always prefer the nair. Also be aware on fastfallers at high percents (like 100% against Fox, against floaties the percentage where it combos will be too low to kill for the loop), up-throw -> shuttle loop is a kill combo.
The back-throw doesn't even grant more positional advantage than the up-throw, only b-throw if you expect DI away only then you get combos. Edgeguarding only works consistent against a few bad recovery characters with back-throw, reason obviously being that MK's back-throw has a much higher angle than MK's back throw. The best situation to use back-throw is when you mix up between down- and back-throw because they will DI away against down-throw, turnaround full jump fair is probably best followup then. Up-throwing is nice, it secures you one up-air and one more aerial, preferably a nair, at the right percentage.
 

Chexr

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
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The difference between back-throw and up-throw is that back-throw sends your opponent backwards while up throw sends them up and forward. Am I going crazy here? Im not looking for a combo off back throw, just to get them off the stage. If I have my back to the ledge I can't up throw to get them off stage.

You can edge guard a TON of characters easily with MK. Marth, Fox, Falco, Falcon, Mario, Wario, Ike, Shiek, Wolf, Tink, Ganon, Snake, Roy, Ness. These are just the easy ones.

I've only ever lost one set so I think my overall game plan is doing pretty fine so far.
 

Chesstiger2612

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I see you are doing great, I just think that back-throw as edgeguarding tool isn't working really. MK also travels up with his up-throw, so comboing will be easy and up-throw-> up-air-> back-air is often the better edgeguarding attempt. Still, I see your point and in many cases both options are equally good, but I normally prefer the safe damage, probably because you can get still positional advantages after getting a hit (one of MK's main strengthes) which is edgeguard-like if you kick them back away from the stage resulting in a damage boost, and also with a potential bair/shuttle loop something similar to successful edgeguards.
It was more a thing coming to my mind when viewing the match, I also can imagine examples where back-throw is better.
 

GuruKid

Smash Ace
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Yoooo. So I've had MK as a secondary for a while to my Diddy but have recently decided to focus on the Knight and dig in to see his potential. Got second with him at a pretty large NYC local on May 4th; vids are recorded on D1's twitch channel:

Losers Quarterfinals vs Xzax (Lucas): http://www.twitch.tv/d1mx/b/525569169?t=0h52m45s
Losers Semifinals vs NinjaLink (Roy, Lucas): http://www.twitch.tv/d1mx/b/525569169?t=1h09m10s
Losers Finals vs DJ Nintendo (Ike): http://www.twitch.tv/d1mx/b/525569169?t=1h28m22s
Grand Finals vs EmuKiller (Mewtwo): http://www.twitch.tv/d1mx/b/525569169?t=1h52m30s

I've been hitting the lab hard going over the Mewtwo matchup with Frozen since then but critiques and comments are of course always welcome.
 
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Jamnt0ast

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Messages
396
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Spokane, WA
Hey all. This is the Grand Finals of BreadnButter Weekly 1.
Some info about me...
I'm the main tournament organizer / live streamer for the Inland Northwest.
Currently ranked #2 on the power ranking here with Mario, but I'm looking to main Meta Knight.

Matches 1 and 5 are MK play by me

Match 5 Begins at 19:44
Please critique! Thanks Guys <3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmTJU2IDfNw
 

Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
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@ Jamnt0ast Jamnt0ast
Good play! My first and probably most important tip is to use dair less, especially in neutral as approach. It has 13 (!) frames of endling lag, if thats not the definition of a punishable aerial, I don't know what is. Dair is good in guaranteed situations or if they just dropped their shields, as well as some escape situations with diagonal diar but please don't approach with it. Also you could have got some punishes on his shield pressure attempts, you often got stuck in your shield. Aside of the obvious shield grab, MK has great up-air and nair OoS as well as the high-risk-high-reward DCape out of shield. Your combo game looked pretty solid, probably there are sometimes more efficient ways to set up for a kill (comboing into bair/shuttle loop mostly) but you used shuttle loop quite often so thats fine. Sometimes his approaches were also obvious and Yoshis bad grab made you think shielding would be good but MKs shield is always a little dubious if it can be avoided and the opponent's character has decent shield pressure. Maybe an active anti-approach like sh fair /retreating sh fair would have worked, this is always a good anti-approach against chars with relatively low range. One game is of course not enough to go into detail but I hope that helps for the time being...
 

Chexr

Smash Ace
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Minnesota
Dair is actually a great move that practically nobody uses. I use it so much people around here have started coining it divesword. Obviously if you land in front of your opponent it can be punished, so you want to aim it behind their shield. If I do miss space it and land in front I always try to mash out ftilt, because it's so quick it can still beat out some characters if they are slow on reaction to punishing your dair.

Normally I use it angled above my opponent. You can kind of use it like a divekick character uses their divekick. It's also great for punishing missed techs and you can continue with a combo afterwards.


I have a video from last weekend. MK mirror madness starts here.

http://www.twitch.tv/mnsmash/b/527756349?t=0h44m50s

Beware of the Yoshi Story match and your sound volume. It was very distracting to me.
 
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Run DMX

Smash Cadet
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Jun 11, 2013
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74
Location
Independence, Missouri
"Dair is actually a great move that practically nobody uses."

I use dair so much that people can read it. I dair people, footstool jump them, and dair them again before they hit the ground.
 

Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
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Bonn, Germany
Dair has 13 frames of landing lag and I assume it should be possible to tell early enough if you go diagonally back to punish it accordingly. Dair has its uses but most MKs rather overdo it ("no dair in neutral" as general rule is good enough). Most characters have bair out of shields or turnaround grab or anything against this kind of dair. Dair in neutral is a gimmicky option which needs good players to punish it, but it stays gimmicky and objectively punishable. Guaranteed dairs are a different thing but I don't see the reason to dair a shield or even missing to get punished, because thats what could happen if the opponent's options are not heavily limited when you dair.
 

M@v

Subarashii!
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Oct 13, 2007
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Here's some vids of my mk. I go Zelda in some of the matches too so feel free to skip over those parts of the videos if you want to.

MOAL IV | M@V vs. Logan | PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAOeAQag2Vk&list=PLJCuP6Odsy67hFDmbEqadKvPsvi5f1eNS&index=9
MOAL IV | Green Ranger vs. M@V | PM Winners Finals (13:10 starts mk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b5CNXQ-7RU&list=PLJCuP6Odsy67hFDmbEqadKvPsvi5f1eNS&index=19
MOAL IV | Logan vs. M@V | PM Losers Finals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwz744wV3bw&list=PLJCuP6Odsy67hFDmbEqadKvPsvi5f1eNS&index=15
 
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Croi

Smash Lord
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Jun 10, 2010
Messages
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Halifax, Nova Scotia
Here's some vids of my mk. I go Zelda in some of the matches too so feel free to skip over those parts of the videos if you want to.

MOAL IV | Green Ranger vs. M@V | PM Winners Finals (13:10 starts mk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b5CNXQ-7RU&list=PLJCuP6Odsy67hFDmbEqadKvPsvi5f1eNS&index=19
"I know GR hates this character [...] ever since Apex 2014. He just had to fight a Meta Knight and that it was terrible, um, and that it was no fun..."

Haha, that was me! I knocked GR out of pools at Apex with MK :p
 
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