Viable Secondaries for Yoshi?

[AAA Battery]

I find myself struggling against characters like Cloud and Bayonetta as of late. I was also doing some research on matchups (This forum for Yoshi is kinda lacking in that regard...), and apparently those matchups are pretty bad. I can kinda see why. Cloud's Up Air alone gives Yoshi difficulty even in spite of Yoshi's godly air speed. And Bayonetta... well my biggest issues may be not knowing good kill confirms for her or how to DI properly. Yoshi lacks a kill confirm out of throws and his projectile isn't very effective when Bayonetta can just slide under. If anyone has any ideas for secondaries I can try... help a Smash Brother out here. :/

 

[DJlive]

Hey dude!

Secondaries, lol. I ask that question myself. Weirdly though, not for those characters.

Unpopular opinion, I like those matchups. Why? They're the type of characters that are flowchart. Do this, then do that and if it doesn't work do that.

For Cloud, you know he'll try to wall you out with fairs and nairs. He'll also try to do a lot of jabs, dash attacks and dtilts. My advice, shield then punish. From shield, you can get either jab, utilt, nair and down b. The first three are for combo and kill confirms, the latter for kills.

For Bayonetta, you know she'll either
A. Utilt/dtilt
B. Witch twist
C. Afterburner kick

So Uhm, shield punish again. Di is also much easier now with the nerfs. Best is down and away but earlier percents, up and in for witch twist works as well. If she becomes prone to witch time, throw more guaranteed setups like utilt uair or fair jab dsmash or egg toss fair. Or you can just mix up with grabs. Or do what you normally do but delay, bait out witch time then punish.

Both Bayo and Cloud can be egg tossed from afar, just make sure you stop once their zone can reach your hurtbox. Resume when in advantaged state.

As for kill confirms...
Jab dsmash near the ledge
Jab usmash/fsmash at kill percents
Jab uair/jc usmash/charge fsmash at high kill percents or floaty characters
Jab downb for fast fallers and shielders
Utilt uair at kill percents
Near ground uair uair at kill percents
Perfect shield to down b
Fair (no tech) uair at kill percents
Fair (no tech) usmash at low kill percents
Fair (no tech) bair at kill percents

And of course remember your list of raw kill moves like bair, offstage nair, uair, sour spot fair

Oh yeah, remember both are also bad at recovery so know fair spike setups...
Jab Jab fair
Egg toss fair
Nair fair
Sour spot fair fair
Ftilt fair
Dash attack dj fair
Jab dtilt fair

Or just nair, sour spot fair, bair them offstage so they can't recover.

Lastly, if you see them roll from the ledge, or roll towards the stage and are positioned properly, quick down b punish can work.

 

[AAA Battery]

Hey dude!

Secondaries, lol. I ask that question myself. Weirdly though, not for those characters.

Unpopular opinion, I like those matchups. Why? They're the type of characters that are flowchart. Do this, then do that and if it doesn't work do that.

For Cloud, you know he'll try to wall you out with fairs and nairs. He'll also try to do a lot of jabs, dash attacks and dtilts. My advice, shield then punish. From shield, you can get either jab, utilt, nair and down b. The first three are for combo and kill confirms, the latter for kills.

For Bayonetta, you know she'll either
A. Utilt/dtilt
B. Witch twist
C. Afterburner kick

So Uhm, shield punish again. Di is also much easier now with the nerfs. Best is down and away but earlier percents, up and in for witch twist works as well. If she becomes prone to witch time, throw more guaranteed setups like utilt uair or fair jab dsmash or egg toss fair. Or you can just mix up with grabs. Or do what you normally do but delay, bait out witch time then punish.

Both Bayo and Cloud can be egg tossed from afar, just make sure you stop once their zone can reach your hurtbox. Resume when in advantaged state.

As for kill confirms...
Jab dsmash near the ledge
Jab usmash/fsmash at kill percents
Jab uair/jc usmash/charge fsmash at high kill percents or floaty characters
Jab downb for fast fallers and shielders
Utilt uair at kill percents
Near ground uair uair at kill percents
Perfect shield to down b
Fair (no tech) uair at kill percents
Fair (no tech) usmash at low kill percents
Fair (no tech) bair at kill percents

And of course remember your list of raw kill moves like bair, offstage nair, uair, sour spot fair

Oh yeah, remember both are also bad at recovery so know fair spike setups...
Jab Jab fair
Egg toss fair
Nair fair
Sour spot fair fair
Ftilt fair
Dash attack dj fair
Jab dtilt fair

Or just nair, sour spot fair, bair them offstage so they can't recover.

Lastly, if you see them roll from the ledge, or roll towards the stage and are positioned properly, quick down b punish can work.

Thanks. I actually never thought of some of these kill confirms like jab to down smash. I'll be sure to do some practice, too.

 

[Pixel_]

I still want to know about Yoshi's secondaries, though.
- Who covers most (if not all) of Yoshi's bad matchups?
- Who covers Yoshi's worst matchups?
- Who plays similarly to Yoshi?
I came here for the first one, and the rest are for anybody else who wants to know Yoshi's secondaries.

 

[Yikarur]

Diddy and Cloud are your best best.
Diddy has very good match-ups against character I consider difficult, but you have to mirror match other Diddys so thats a downside
Cloud beats almost everyone solidly, Diddy is an difficul MU for Cloud if the Diddy plays the match-up really well but you have the power on your side.. so if you really want a secondary which is easy to play and helps with difficult match-ups just play Cloud.
You have to mirror match Cloud though if you want to avoid the MU with Yoshi though, but Cloud mirror is less difficult than Diddy mirrors as a secondary.

 

[AAA Battery]

Diddy and Cloud are your best best.
Diddy has very good match-ups against character I consider difficult, but you have to mirror match other Diddys so thats a downside
Cloud beats almost everyone solidly, Diddy is an difficul MU for Cloud if the Diddy plays the match-up really well but you have the power on your side.. so if you really want a secondary which is easy to play and helps with difficult match-ups just play Cloud.
You have to mirror match Cloud though if you want to avoid the MU with Yoshi though, but Cloud mirror is less difficult than Diddy mirrors as a secondary.

I actually wonder how Peach fairs... but if I had to use Diddy Kong, that could work. I'm actually one of the worst Clouds I know so I don't think I can really do well with him. Plus, Cloud is a matchup I struggle with and I abhor ditto matches. But for Diddy's case... how should Diddy play the matchup? I see ZeRo play Mew2King and it looks scary for Diddy. Though Z-dropping bananas could give Cloud's recovery trouble. But what else would I need to know?

 

[Yikarur]

Clouds strength is his aerial game while Diddys strength is his ground game. You have to play very very ground based; your goal is to punish his landings while you try to prevent Cloud getting you in the air. Strong ground game beats strong aerial game if you keep your ground game up. (thats why Yoshi struggles so hard)

The next goal is to get the skill asap because you don't want to mess with a raged Cloud. Cloud with rage is the most scary think in this game so you really need to be on-point with your kill confirms and edge guardings.

 

[AAA Battery]

Clouds strength is his aerial game while Diddys strength is his ground game. You have to play very very ground based; your goal is to punish his landings while you try to prevent Cloud getting you in the air. Strong ground game beats strong aerial game if you keep your ground game up. (thats why Yoshi struggles so hard)

The next goal is to get the skill asap because you don't want to mess with a raged Cloud. Cloud with rage is the most scary think in this game so you really need to be on-point with your kill confirms and edge guardings.

Interesting. Very VERY interesting. I must thank you for your help. This is all very important.

 

[DJlive]

If you're having problems with Cloud while in the air, practice movement options.

Nair, up b can both stall you in the air
Bair can drift you outwards
Egg lay extends momentum, coupled with reverses is useful
Air dodge ff when in Cloud's zone
And always remember you have Yoshi bomb to ledge to reset yourself, or you don't need the ledge if you feel Cloud can't punish you.

 

[DJlive]

I just came from watching Wall vs Shadowfox and Void vs Sky Williams

Just a few tips that I got from those matches.

Some Clouds will keep you from going into the air by dair. He can't really act that well during that time. I'll use it to run reverse egg him. And if he's near the ground, hold shield, let it finish then oos Nair, JC up smash, down b or uair.

Some Clouds will also bait by approaching with Nair, utilt or uair. Don't engage. If you have running room, run away reverse egg throw. Raptor might do run shield oos option, which is riskier but might also be good.

Once you do get hit by the sword, disengage. You'll be fighting a losing battle. So better to DJ away and reset. Sometimes I'll DJ cancel with aerial then ffac it to the ground then shield. If it's possible, DJ cancel ledge bomb.

 

[AAA Battery]

I just came from watching Wall vs Shadowfox and Void vs Sky Williams

Just a few tips that I got from those matches.

Some Clouds will keep you from going into the air by dair. He can't really act that well during that time. I'll use it to run reverse egg him. And if he's near the ground, hold shield, let it finish then oos Nair, JC up smash, down b or uair.

Some Clouds will also bait by approaching with Nair, utilt or uair. Don't engage. If you have running room, run away reverse egg throw. Raptor might do run shield oos option, which is riskier but might also be good.

Once you do get hit by the sword, disengage. You'll be fighting a losing battle. So better to DJ away and reset. Sometimes I'll DJ cancel with aerial then ffac it to the ground then shield. If it's possible, DJ cancel ledge bomb.

So far what I'm getting from this is that when fighting a Cloud, I'll have to play very defensive. I can see where my errors are really shining from then. I play like a tornado: Just overwhelm and crush. But when it comes to a matchup like vs. Cloud, I can see where that wouldn't work. Thanks by the way for the advice. I really appreciate it. I'll focus more on Yoshi as a whole and deal with the matchup that way since I'm also finding difficulty finding another main to suit my playstyle.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

I think Rosalina is a good secondary for Yoshi.

Yoshi struggles with 'playing lame' defensively. Rosalina allows you to 'play lame' (tall character with massive shield radius, perfect shield everything, frame 6 grab, etc).

I'm not sure about the Rosa v Cloud MU, but I'm pretty sure Rosa can lame it out no matter how disjointed a character is. Lame game too OP. Her shield radius allows her to block Clouds air attacks much higher than Yoshi can. Punishes should come more easily.

 

[AAA Battery]

I think Rosalina is a good secondary for Yoshi.

Yoshi struggles with 'playing lame' defensively. Rosalina allows you to 'play lame' (tall character with massive shield radius, perfect shield everything, frame 6 grab, etc).

I'm not sure about the Rosa v Cloud MU, but I'm pretty sure Rosa can lame it out no matter how disjointed a character is. Lame game too OP. Her shield radius allows her to block Clouds air attacks much higher than Yoshi can. Punishes should come more easily.

I main Rosa already, and she arguably has it harder than Yoshi fighting Cloud. His Dair counters Rosa'a Uair and the sword allows him to effectively knock Luma out before he can do any significant damage. Plus he has Limit charge. And letting Cloud charge limit break is suicide when you struggle at close or mid-range with a sword the size of a ship.

 

[AAA Battery]

When or IF I get a Wii U, I plan on picking up Ryu. He actually beats both Cloud and from what I can tell, Sheik and ZSS.

 

[BrilliantBrill]

Would Mewtwo be a good secondary for covering Yoshi's weaknesses?

 

[Doublenickels]

Would Mewtwo be a good secondary for covering Yoshi's weaknesses?

I've actually picked up Mewtwo recently and he seems to do well against characters like Cloud and Diddy. His tail is long enough to play that spacing game with them, shadow ball is a great projectile, you have sideB as a reflector, good air and ground speed. It just seems to work in my opinion.

I just need to polish that Mewtwo a little more, so I'm not making stupid mistakes while in the lead. But yes, I think Mewtwo is a solid secondary for Yoshi.

Definitely better than Wario was for me (R.I.P. sweet prince).

 

[WinterShorts]

Maybe if you're having trouble with Cloud, then you could do this Armada-style, pick up Cloud and learn him. You could know his weaknesses, how is he played at his absolute best, you know. Just know it from the perspective of the Cloud player, as well as knowing more about the general smash 4 metagame.

 

[Pixel_]

I've been interested in Fox lately, do you guys think he'd make a good secondary? I think Zero mentioned Fox as a notable matchup against Diddy, but I forgot if he said anything about Cloud...

 

[Goldenstein64]

I've been interested in Fox lately, do you guys think he'd make a good secondary? I think Zero mentioned Fox as a notable matchup against Diddy, but I forgot if he said anything about Cloud...

Fox MIGHT be a good match-up against Cloud

• Chokes Cloud with really fast aerials
• might be outranged by Cloud's Titanic
• Fox has predictable recovery, but Cloud's is worse
• Dsmash & Bair=Cloud's death
• More combo oriented than Cloud
• Light weight + Limit Break=easier to KO
• Has less juggling capacity than Cloud

Fox has low range, a linear recovery, and is very technical, but is made up for with sheer speed and safe combo starters because of speed
Cloud has a linear, vulnerable recovery, but is more than made up for with high range, good kill moves, and good damage output

 

[Skeeter Mania]

What about MK? Any good secondaries for him (arguably about as hard as Diddy and Cloud IMO)?

 

[AAA Battery]

Lately I've been playing Marth actually.

 

[Delta-cod]

Lately I've been playing Marth actually.

Has that being working well? How does Marth help you cover Yoshi's weak match ups?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Has that being working well? How does Marth help you cover Yoshi's weak match ups?

I'm sure he fares better against Cloud, though I was thinking Bowser as a CP.

 

[AAA Battery]

Has that being working well? How does Marth help you cover Yoshi's weak match ups?

Sorry I didn't see earlier. But his extra range does help make up a lot given Yoshi struggles heavily against swordsman. Though I haven't nailed playing the neutral game so results haven't gotten that much better. Plus, still struggle with Diddy Kong since he doesn't need range given his banana enables so many follow-ups. Thinking now though that I know Yoshi a lot better now than I did then so I'll try to optimize his combos to see what can work for his REALLY bad matchups if I'm ever forced to play one.

 

[AAA Battery]

Interesting. Looking over to Yoshi's double jump armor tolerance, he doesn't get hit out of it by Cloud's late down air until a little after 70%. So maybe armoring through it to punish with my own uair could work. I have to try this next time I'm home.

 

[Yikarur]

I second Rosalina for Sheik and Diddy and Diddy for Swordsmen. Works out pretty well so far.

 

[AAA Battery]

I second Rosalina for Sheik and Diddy and Diddy for Swordsmen. Works out pretty well so far.

Not going to lie, I struggle to see Yoshi being tournament viable anymore. I'm thinking about dropping him in favor of Toon Link now just because I find him more fun to play.