Official Veterans Discussion

[kirbstr]

I don't care what happens to any of the characters as long as Falco's lasers don't suck and gliding is back.

 

[Deleted member]

My wishlist for Shulk is in my signature. Just rename the Monado Arts so they're Cyclone/Speed/Shield/Enchant/Buster instead of Jump/Speed/Shield/Buster/Smash. It really bothers me that two of them are made up.

On top of that, I think it would be really cool if all of the Arts gave an added bonus besides stat changes like how Jump makes Air Slash travel higher. Something like the following would do it for me:

• Speed buffs Shulk's roll so it travels farther and faster. Considering Monado Speed is used to increase evasion and dodge attacks, this makes too much sense. Plus the speed difference between his roll and dash is really jarring in Speed mode.
• Shield keeps the shield size increase, and also makes Shulk immune to shield pokes ala Yoshi's Egg. Shulk's shield would have to change to the yellow barrier from Xenoblade as well.
• Buster/Enchant lasts a few seconds longer than the other arts.
• Smash/Buster increses the Monado Beam's length during smash attacks, much like how Monado Buster enhances the beam's length to attack in Xenoblade.

Just some simple ideas that would make Shulk better and more true to his games.

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe this has been stated earlier, but we can all agree that / should be back to have more than 3 Pikmins with them right?

 

[fogbadge]

Maybe this has been stated earlier, but we can all agree that / should be back to have more than 3 Pikmins with them right?

i kind of want them as separate characters

 

[kirbstr]

Maybe this has been stated earlier, but we can all agree that / should be back to have more than 3 Pikmins with them right?

I'm guessing all the characters ****-blocked by the 3ds version will come back in full force (i.e. Olimar, Dedede, IC's)

 

[ryuu seika]

I dunno, Dedede seemed like more of a crusade against randomness and, while more pikmin will likely be included, Olimar's new Up B is likely to stay. Perhaps he'll get a Z-air to replace the lost one.

 

[kirbstr]

I dunno, Dedede seemed like more of a crusade against randomness and, while more pikmin will likely be included, Olimar's new Up B is likely to stay. Perhaps he'll get a Z-air to replace the lost one.

i was talking more about dedede's final smash. As for Olimar, they could still use his new Up-B, just change the pikmin to weight ratio.

 

[ryuu seika]

i was talking more about dedede's final smash. As for Olimar, they could still use his new Up-B, just change the pikmin to weight ratio.

Ah. I don't play with FSs much so wasn't aware his had a change. That's what I was theorising with Olimar too, though.

 

[Diddy Kong]

What I want is more refreshent in the move sets of old veterans. So they play more as in their games.

Kirby should get a buff on Inhale I feel. Cause nothing else Kirby has has any sort of range. This always held him back and Inhale buffs are indirect buffs and make him play out his gimmick better. Also allow him to eat items and spit out stars. It would help his neutral game against some characters. Kirby could use a bit of a pressure metagame.

Samus needs her Charge Shot and Missiles be a gimmick on it's own as well as Morph Ball. Press B to charge Beam, Side B to activate Missile Mode and Down B to Mroph Ball mode. Balance arrordingly. Charge Shot might get a nerf in overall power but huge boost in utility. Missiles need to be able to shoot faster and deal some more hitstun. Damage is fine. Also maybe limit the amount of missiles she can shoot at a time to 3? Make her faster and her physical attacks somewhat weaker and more combo based to allow Charge Shot finisher combo's. Screw Attack could and should also be one of her killing moves.

Yoshi should be similary buffed as Kirby. Maybe change Neutral B altogether and make it work more as in the games. Eggs as holdable items would make Yoshi far more dangerous as well as true to his games. Make him able to eat items just like Wario can. That this was never considered is weird to me. Also: increase grab range.

I mean such concepts should've really been considered earlier. Veteran characters have lot of potential for unique game mechanics and gimmicks as new comers do. Shame it's often overlooked.

There's also other gripes as King Dedede having no real swing or pounding attacks with the hammer. DK slapping so much instead of punching. Diddy not using his tail all too much. Mewtwo using his tail fsr too much. Ness not using his own PSI... but those are small things.

I'd also like to aerial combat possibilities for Charizard. Why can't he properly fly? His Specials need attention as well as aerials and Smash attacks. Too ground based.

Ganondorf I feel completely hopeless about especially with no actual new appearance since Hyrule Warriors. And honestly a few move set tweaks to the Zelda cast based on HW would be awesome. But as for Ganondorf himself... I'd hope they could just change his Smashes into something more fitting. And give him the best and / or most unique of his Custom Moves as default. If it's Twilight Princess Ganondorf again, which am 89% sure of, why not change Neutral B to the Sword Charge attack. It would be a running attack with good range in front thst gives Ganondorf some damn approach option. It could let him draw his sword and change his moves as if he'd hold a Beam Sword (yay for forced casual ****). One sword per stock. Throwing is also of course a possibility but it would poof immediately after. So this way Ganondorf receives minimal changes except for Neutral B and gets both a sword and projectile.

 

[Deleted member]

Kirby should get a buff on Inhale I feel. Cause nothing else Kirby has has any sort of range. This always held him back and Inhale buffs are indirect buffs and make him play out his gimmick better. Also allow him to eat items and spit out stars. It would help his neutral game against some characters. Kirby could use a bit of a pressure metagame.

Ganondorf I feel completely hopeless about especially with no actual new appearance since Hyrule Warriors. And honestly a few move set tweaks to the Zelda cast based on HW would be awesome. But as for Ganondorf himself... I'd hope they could just change his Smashes into something more fitting. And give him the best and / or most unique of his Custom Moves as default. If it's Twilight Princess Ganondorf again, which am 89% sure of, why not change Neutral B to the Sword Charge attack. It would be a running attack with good range in front thst gives Ganondorf some damn approach option. It could let him draw his sword and change his moves as if he'd hold a Beam Sword (yay for forced casual ****). One sword per stock. Throwing is also of course a possibility but it would poof immediately after. So this way Ganondorf receives minimal changes except for Neutral B and gets both a sword and projectile.

When you say an inhale buff, do you mean improved frame data, or do you want some kind of range increase if you hold it long enough like in more recent Kirby titles? Anyway, Kirby could really use a minor rework. It always bothered me that he has a huge array of powers to draw from but instead he has to hit opponents with his tiny feet. His subpar mobility isn't doing him any favors either. Buffing inhale would be a start, but I think he could use a projectile (Spark or Beam?) for a side special instead of hammer flip as well. Hammer Flip kind of takes away from Dedede's shtick on top of being a terrible attack. If you really wanted to keep a hammer move you could put it on either forward smash or neutral air. Giving Kirby a usable projectile would give him a way to force approaches, which is necessary since Kirby's own approach options are limited and his whole gameplan revolves around getting up close. If you wanted to go the extra mile a few more of his normals could change to different copy ability powers, but that's not necessary.

I think Ganondorf might be a lost cause. The most you could get away with at this point is changing a few of his moves to sword attacks like you said. Otherwise he'd feel too different from previous incarnations of smash, which I'd be in favor of, but I don't think the smash team would be. To circumvent that, I wouldn't really mind if Pig Ganon was a newcomer to make Ganon/Ganondorf be more true to his games. It wouldn't even be that out of place since we already have two Links and two Zeldas, but that's getting away from the purpose of the thread.

Edit: Beam Sword only changes a few attacks. Should've clarified before the misunderstanding.

As for my own main, I just hope some of his attacks get fixed. Greninja's kit is great, it's just really annoying when things don't work for no real reason. I'm talking about his Forward Smash having a blindspot in front of him because the sword passes through the Z axis, his Up Smash's second hit not hitting enemies standing on platforms, and the air above his head being a hurtbox during his crouch just so Fox and Falco can hit him with lasers. I can understand Up Air not connecting at higher percents due to the nature of the game, but the other things are just dumb. As for Neutral Air killing you if you happen to buffer an attack at the ledge because of its super higher FAF, I'd want that to be lowered enough for aerial combos but at least enough so you can consistently survive a non fastfall Nair from the ledge.

And just as a general thing, pretty much all of the counters that don't consistently land the counterattack need some kind of buff. The reasons why Shulk's, Corrin's, and Marth's counters work are because they hit through shields, have slowdown, hit quickly, or some combination of the three. Lucario and Greninja's counters in particular stand out as almost disfunctional. Lucario's Extremespeed should be nearly instant on reapparance and travel really fast to live up to its name. Greninja's Substitute is terrible, so it needs to inflict some slowdown on the attacker and have Greninja reappear faster for the counterattack. I say both because it's already really slow to counterattack on top of spawning an object that can get in the way, which gives the opponent more time to shield if you get stuck on the Substitute. While we're talking about Substitute, get rid of the wood so only the doll can appear .

 

[kirbstr]

I'd also like to aerial combat possibilities for Charizard. Why can't he properly fly? His Specials need attention as well as aerials and Smash attacks. Too ground based.

Ganondorf I feel completely hopeless about especially with no actual new appearance since Hyrule Warriors. And honestly a few move set tweaks to the Zelda cast based on HW would be awesome. But as for Ganondorf himself... I'd hope they could just change his Smashes into something more fitting. And give him the best and / or most unique of his Custom Moves as default. If it's Twilight Princess Ganondorf again, which am 89% sure of, why not change Neutral B to the Sword Charge attack. It would be a running attack with good range in front thst gives Ganondorf some damn approach option. It could let him draw his sword and change his moves as if he'd hold a Beam Sword (yay for forced casual ****). One sword per stock. Throwing is also of course a possibility but it would poof immediately after. So this way Ganondorf receives minimal changes except for Neutral B and gets both a sword and projectile.

Charizard needs more jumps (He has the least amount of multi-jumps and he's a dragon) and a better up-b. I feel like if they gave him an up-b that went higher, more jumps, potentially gliding, and less laggy aerials he would feel more air-based. I also think that he needs an update on his down-b, especially with the removal of HM moves in SUMO. Maybe dragon dance for something interesting? His smash attacks and specials otherwise are fine, he is a heavyweight after all.

I think people should give up on the idea of a revitalized Ganondorf, however, I feel like he HAS been getting less and less Falcon as the games have gone on. Like you said, if they chose to keep some custom moves as default for some of the clones/semi-clones I feel like his aerial wizard foot would be a really cool option for him to have. Not only would he feel more "wizard-like" he would also have a reliable approach and recovery option. His up-b and side-b and fine the way they are as they are (kind of) based off of things from twilight princess. I also think that his neutral-b should change to the sword permanently, but I doubt the smash devs would do that. The main moves I want to be changed for Ganondorf are his down smash and neutral air. Both are very meh moves that are not very unique to him and could be a step towards further differentiating him from Falcon. Maybe side-smash too and he could use his sword for it.

EDIT: Beam sword would be interesting, but would never happen realistically.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I never said he'd have a Beam Sword. I'd say he'd draw his sword for a charging attack, and he keeps holding the sword after the move has been used. It would be limited to one sword each stock, and if thrown it would dissapear immediately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDA7RNjeZ10 15:42 is the moment he starts this attack.

The way the sword changes Ganondorf's moveset is exactly the same as if Ganondorf would hold a Beam Sword. That's the only thing I said about that item.

 

[kirbstr]

I never said he'd have a Beam Sword. I'd say he'd draw his sword for a charging attack, and he keeps holding the sword after the move has been used. It would be limited to one sword each stock, and if thrown it would dissapear immediately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDA7RNjeZ10 15:42 is the moment he starts this attack.

The way the sword changes Ganondorf's moveset is exactly the same as if Ganondorf would hold a Beam Sword. That's the only thing I said about that item.

Oh, I see, thank you for clarifying.

 

[Deleted member]

Here's a big overhaul idea for more akin to his original game:

He would have a gauge called Monado Gauge which would be visible on-screen like 's Power Meter and which gets filled every time carries an attack like and , and once this gauge has been filled to a certain level, can activate one of his Monado arts which, instead of modifying his stats, brings additional effects to its normal attacks and would cost a certain amount of the Monado Gauge following its efficiency.

For example:

- Monado Shield (which would be renamed to Monado Armour) will reduce the damage receives for 1/6 of the gauge.
- Monado Speed would increase 's overall agility both in the air and on the ground for 2/6 of the gauge.
- Monado Purge would allow to send projectiles forward by using side-A/down-A and upward by using up-A for 3/6 of the gauge.
- Monado Cyclone would add his up-Smash's and down-Smash's reaches akin to 's Heavenly Light for 4/6 of the gauge.
- Monado Buster (the actual one) would extend his overall blade's length and power for 5/6 of the gauge.

Every one of his art's effects would be balanced on purpose of course.

And then we keep Back Slash and Air Slash the same and make Vision more effective by adding the possibility to touch the opponent who attacks from the air.

 

[DJ3DS]

:

- Increase grab range (right now it is silly for such a large character)
- Change Side B so that it is a single spin with faster startup (One of his customs is like this) to make it a much more effective reflector / get off me move.
- Increase Up B speed OR make it so it can be acted out of immediately.
- Give F-Tilt it's old range back so ROB has a safe grounded poke

These four things would make ROB that little better without fundamentally changing anything about the character.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

If you have the chance to replace a Veteran Fighter, would you do it?

Or would that be controversial?

 

[DJ3DS]

If you have the chance to replace a Veteran Fighter, would you do it?

Or would that be controversial?

Would it be controversial? Sure.

Would I do it anyway? Yeah, no questions asked. I'd very happily remove characters I don't use, especially ones very similar to existing characters, to put in ones I'd prefer. If it were down to me I'd have replaced Falco and Toon Link without a second thought.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

I still kept that idea of a roster variation set a la, SNK Playmore and Netherrealm Studios.

One involves replacing Jigglypuff with a Fairy Tale Girl unleashing a Wigglytuff, a Clefable, & an Azumarill.

A Pokemon Trainer idea.

 

[Quillion]

I posted this potential revamp of Ganondorf's moveset onto GameFAQs a year ago. I do agree that his moveset has value as Falcon-based as it is, but it has the bare minimum of faithfulness to what he actually does in game. So I came up with this to brainstorm a potential change.

Spoiler: Reconciling Canondorf and Falcondorf

My goal here is to preserve much of his moveset while changing the animations and also making him balanced. I promise both magic and bladed weapons here, for three reasons: canon, being cool-looking, and let's face it, the poor Gerudo needs some range.

First off, specials:

Neutral B: Warlock Punch -> Warlock Blast: Loosely based off of the "dark waves" thing he before his OoT fight, he raises his hand, focuses dark power into the area in front of him, and triggers a large blast of darkness. For added flavor, the area where the blast will be would be marked with some magical runes similar to Hyrule Warriors. Just like the Warlock Punch, it still has a slow charge, and it's ridiculously powerful if it connects. Only mechanical change would be giving it more range. And yes, it's still reversible, which creates an even bigger blast!

Side B: Flame Choke + Dead Man's Volley: This is a special case, as the move is mostly good as it is. However, I would change the rushing animation to something else for another property: the ability to reflect projectiles. If he connects with an opponent, he chokes them on the ground/chokeslams in the air just as it is. But if he connects with a projectile, just like Pit's Side B, he hits it with a backhand. Unlike Upperdash Arm, he doesn't send the projectile up, but straight back at the opponent! One of the most iconic fixtures of Zelda final bosses can finally be incorporated into him, and he won't be so easily projectile camped with this!

Up B: Dark Dive -> Possession: Even despite the slight animation change in Smash U, the move still leaves a lot to be desired. So what I have in mind would reference him possessing Zelda at the end of TP: Ganondorf turns into a dark mist that rises upward. At the very end of the move if the grab doesn't connect, he transforms back into a Gerudo with a blast so as to preserve the Shoryuken-like thing he does in the move currently. But if the grab connects, his essence enters the opponent, burns him/her from within (is he eating his/her soul? O_O), and then leaps out of the opponent in an explosion. Spooky! Mechanically, the move would be identical to what his current Up B is.

Down B: Wizard's Foot -> Trident of Power: Finally, a bladed weapon! Ganondorf summons his trident, then rushes forward with it on the ground, or dives diagonally downwards with it in the air. Pretty much the same as it is currently is, though, of course, with more range, and maybe a slightly higher hitbox on the ground?

Next, his Smash attacks, all using his bladed weapons.

Side Smash: Pulls out his Sage Sword from TP and does a two-handed lunge. This keeps it fairly similar to his elbow strike animation-wise while adding, again, more range.

Up Smash: Pulls out his Sage Sword and does an upward slash in front of him. No reason for him to do that silly high kick. Just gives the move a much more useful hitbox.

Down Smash: Pulls out his dual swords from WW and slashes low in front, then behind him. Mechanically similar to his current front-back kick, but with, again, more range.

Now for assorted normal changes:

Neutral A: Same as it is now, but adds a magical explosion in front of his hand. The end result would look something like the first hit of Mewtwo's Neutral A, but with a sourspot on the hand but a sweetspot on the blast.

Up Tilt: Again, no reason for him to be this flexible. He instead charges a ball of energy in his hand above him, then throws it downward for a massive explosion. Otherwise identical mechanically.

Neutral air: Pulls out his dual swords and slashes in front of him twice.

Up air: Instead of doing a flash kick (seriously, why would Ganondorf be this acrobatic?) he pulls out his Sage sword and slashes in an arc above him. Has a similar sweeping hitbox to what it has currently, but again, with moar range.

Back air: Similar to current, but fires a magic blast behind him. Once again, simply adds range.

Grab: If there's anything I'm taking from the Project Ganondorf mod, it's this: he telekinetically grabs the opponent. Grabs and throws will probably be the most changed aspect from current Ganondorf.

Pummel: Chokes opponent with dark energy. Aesthetically similar to Mewtwo's pummel.

Throws: Telekinetically throws the opponent in whatever direction the throw is.

TL;DR: I envision Canondorf to essentially be the same as Falcondorf, but with more range. Otherwise, just animations would be revamped; mainly to replace the remaining Falcon animations with more canon ones

Though honestly, speaking as someone who was insanely angry about Ganondorf's moveset at one point, I've come to terms with it. When you think about it, wanting Ganondorf to be changed because he's unfaithful and because he's a Falcon clone is hypocritical.

 

[Blackwolf666]

Use as an alternate costume for and swap out his normal arrows for fire arrows as his new neutral special (just so I'm clear I don't mean only when he's but his neutral special will be fire arrows when he's )

Also as an alternate costume for . After a couple years I don't care anymore. I wanted to get her own move set but I've given up hope to make more unique and just tossing her to the alternate costume bin like she was originally intended.

I still haven't given up on making unique though and here's the answer that has been tossed around the internet like confetti.

 

[DJ3DS]

I posted this potential revamp of Ganondorf's moveset onto GameFAQs a year ago. I do agree that his moveset has value as Falcon-based as it is, but it has the bare minimum of faithfulness to what he actually does in game. So I came up with this to brainstorm a potential change.

Spoiler: Reconciling Canondorf and Falcondorf

My goal here is to preserve much of his moveset while changing the animations and also making him balanced. I promise both magic and bladed weapons here, for three reasons: canon, being cool-looking, and let's face it, the poor Gerudo needs some range.

First off, specials:

Neutral B: Warlock Punch -> Warlock Blast: Loosely based off of the "dark waves" thing he before his OoT fight, he raises his hand, focuses dark power into the area in front of him, and triggers a large blast of darkness. For added flavor, the area where the blast will be would be marked with some magical runes similar to Hyrule Warriors. Just like the Warlock Punch, it still has a slow charge, and it's ridiculously powerful if it connects. Only mechanical change would be giving it more range. And yes, it's still reversible, which creates an even bigger blast!

Side B: Flame Choke + Dead Man's Volley: This is a special case, as the move is mostly good as it is. However, I would change the rushing animation to something else for another property: the ability to reflect projectiles. If he connects with an opponent, he chokes them on the ground/chokeslams in the air just as it is. But if he connects with a projectile, just like Pit's Side B, he hits it with a backhand. Unlike Upperdash Arm, he doesn't send the projectile up, but straight back at the opponent! One of the most iconic fixtures of Zelda final bosses can finally be incorporated into him, and he won't be so easily projectile camped with this!

Up B: Dark Dive -> Possession: Even despite the slight animation change in Smash U, the move still leaves a lot to be desired. So what I have in mind would reference him possessing Zelda at the end of TP: Ganondorf turns into a dark mist that rises upward. At the very end of the move if the grab doesn't connect, he transforms back into a Gerudo with a blast so as to preserve the Shoryuken-like thing he does in the move currently. But if the grab connects, his essence enters the opponent, burns him/her from within (is he eating his/her soul? O_O), and then leaps out of the opponent in an explosion. Spooky! Mechanically, the move would be identical to what his current Up B is.

Down B: Wizard's Foot -> Trident of Power: Finally, a bladed weapon! Ganondorf summons his trident, then rushes forward with it on the ground, or dives diagonally downwards with it in the air. Pretty much the same as it is currently is, though, of course, with more range, and maybe a slightly higher hitbox on the ground?

Next, his Smash attacks, all using his bladed weapons.

Side Smash: Pulls out his Sage Sword from TP and does a two-handed lunge. This keeps it fairly similar to his elbow strike animation-wise while adding, again, more range.

Up Smash: Pulls out his Sage Sword and does an upward slash in front of him. No reason for him to do that silly high kick. Just gives the move a much more useful hitbox.

Down Smash: Pulls out his dual swords from WW and slashes low in front, then behind him. Mechanically similar to his current front-back kick, but with, again, more range.

Now for assorted normal changes:

Neutral A: Same as it is now, but adds a magical explosion in front of his hand. The end result would look something like the first hit of Mewtwo's Neutral A, but with a sourspot on the hand but a sweetspot on the blast.

Up Tilt: Again, no reason for him to be this flexible. He instead charges a ball of energy in his hand above him, then throws it downward for a massive explosion. Otherwise identical mechanically.

Neutral air: Pulls out his dual swords and slashes in front of him twice.

Up air: Instead of doing a flash kick (seriously, why would Ganondorf be this acrobatic?) he pulls out his Sage sword and slashes in an arc above him. Has a similar sweeping hitbox to what it has currently, but again, with moar range.

Back air: Similar to current, but fires a magic blast behind him. Once again, simply adds range.

Grab: If there's anything I'm taking from the Project Ganondorf mod, it's this: he telekinetically grabs the opponent. Grabs and throws will probably be the most changed aspect from current Ganondorf.

Pummel: Chokes opponent with dark energy. Aesthetically similar to Mewtwo's pummel.

Throws: Telekinetically throws the opponent in whatever direction the throw is.

TL;DR: I envision Canondorf to essentially be the same as Falcondorf, but with more range. Otherwise, just animations would be revamped; mainly to replace the remaining Falcon animations with more canon ones

Though honestly, speaking as someone who was insanely angry about Ganondorf's moveset at one point, I've come to terms with it. When you think about it, wanting Ganondorf to be changed because he's unfaithful and because he's a Falcon clone is hypocritical.

I could get behind this. I'm not sure how wanting Ganon changed is hypocritical though...

 

[Quillion]

I'm not sure how wanting Ganon changed is hypocritical though...

Because even though you want Ganondorf to be changed because he's "unfaithful" and "lacks iconic moves", you don't want Mario to use his Goomba Stomp or his Hammer. Nor do you want Ness to use his Bat for more than one move (and yet people think Ganondorf's Warlock Blade custom "isn't good enough"). You hold Ganondorf to an unfair double standard for being "not being like the games" and "outdated" when there are other characters who lack their canon defining characteristics as well.

If you want Ganondorf to be changed because he's a Falcon clone, then you're just making him intrude on Ike's niche (as the heavy sword user) or Mewtwo's niche (as the dark magic user. NOTE: Psychic powers and Magic powers are essentially the same thing). You hate that Ganondorf's moveset derives from Falcon despite his playstyle differences, yet you want him to play the same as other characters.

(NOTE: I'm not talking about you in particular, I'm talking about all Ganondorf complainers)

 

[Blackwolf666]

Because even though you want Ganondorf to be changed because he's "unfaithful" and "lacks iconic moves", you don't want Mario to use his Goomba Stomp or his Hammer. Nor do you want Ness to use his Bat for more than one move (and yet people think Ganondorf's Warlock Blade custom "isn't good enough"). You hold Ganondorf to an unfair double standard for being "not being like the games" and "outdated" when there are other characters who lack their canon defining characteristics as well.

If you want Ganondorf to be changed because he's a Falcon clone, then you're just making him intrude on Ike's niche (as the heavy sword user) or Mewtwo's niche (as the dark magic user. NOTE: Psychic powers and Magic powers are essentially the same thing). You hate that Ganondorf's moveset derives from Falcon despite his playstyle differences, yet you want him to play the same as other characters.

(NOTE: I'm not talking about you in particular, I'm talking about all Ganondorf complainers)

Mario and Ness still have several moves that are based off of their own games... we don't need every single thing they can do to be adapted. Ganon has just 2 and they're not even that iconic or recognizable. Also before anyone talks about characters that have move sets that don't come from their own games like fox and C. Falcon those are still completely unique to them and have a little inspiration from the source material like slippy designing fox's weapons and Falcon... shouting his name over and over... and over again. Okay we all just give CF a pass on that because he's not a clone character, we didn't have much to go on for a move set when smash 64 first came out, he's fun to play and the memes he's inspired. (I'll admit my stance on CF is hypocritical)

So, are you saying that its wrong for Ganon to have moves that'll be based off of his own game because you think it might be too similar to mewtwo and Ike? Marth intruded on Link's niche as being the only swordsman y'know.

 

[Oddball]

I don';t see where you have any kind of argument there.

You might as well complain that Link and Pit are too similiar because they're both blade weilding bowmen or that Samus and Megaman are the same because they're both futuristic fighters with guns for a hand.

 

[Quillion]

we didn't have much to go on for a move set when smash 64 first came out, he's fun to play and the memes he's inspired. (I'll admit my stance on CF is hypocritical)

We didn't have much to go off for Ganondorf either. All he did was either fire energy balls and punch.

Guess what, we did get the latter. Sure, you could argue that his energy balls are "iconic", but Mario's Goomba Stomp is even more iconic, yet you don't want that for Mario's moveset, do you?

So, are you saying that its wrong for Ganon to have moves that'll be based off of his own game because you think it might be too similar to mewtwo and Ike? Marth intruded on Link's niche as being the only swordsman y'know.

You might as well complain that Link and Pit are too similiar because they're both blade weilding bowmen or that Samus and Megaman are the same because they're both futuristic fighters with guns for a hand.

Marth doesn't have projectiles, is faster, and has the tipper gimmick. Pit has multiple jumps, a fully controllable arrow, and a reflector. These nuances among other things make them much different than Link.

Mega Man has projectile normals while Samus doesn't.

There is NO way to not make canon-based Ganondorf without having him intrude on Ike or Mewtwo's niches.

 

[ryuu seika]

Sure, you could argue that his energy balls are "iconic", but Mario's Goomba Stomp is even more iconic, yet you don't want that for Mario's moveset, do you?

You mean the stomp that is an innate weakness of all Mario enemies besides Bowser? The stomp that can be performed on them by litterally anyone in the various SSB adventure modes? The stomp used to introduce Luigi in Melee? The stomp that gave rise to footstooling in Brawl?

Yeah, that's in everyone's moveset now. Why would we restrict it to Mario?

 

[DJ3DS]

Because even though you want Ganondorf to be changed because he's "unfaithful" and "lacks iconic moves", you don't want Mario to use his Goomba Stomp or his Hammer. Nor do you want Ness to use his Bat for more than one move (and yet people think Ganondorf's Warlock Blade custom "isn't good enough"). You hold Ganondorf to an unfair double standard for being "not being like the games" and "outdated" when there are other characters who lack their canon defining characteristics as well.

If you want Ganondorf to be changed because he's a Falcon clone, then you're just making him intrude on Ike's niche (as the heavy sword user) or Mewtwo's niche (as the dark magic user. NOTE: Psychic powers and Magic powers are essentially the same thing). You hate that Ganondorf's moveset derives from Falcon despite his playstyle differences, yet you want him to play the same as other characters.

(NOTE: I'm not talking about you in particular, I'm talking about all Ganondorf complainers)

To be honest I think this is an unfair comparison for two reasons. Firstly, Mario does draw heavily from his source games; sure they haven't used everything but there's no way they possibly could. Secondly, you're not going to see people complaining about Ness' faithfulness that often (though yes, I've seen it on here) because barely anyone has played Earthbound in comparison to most of the other franchises here.

On the other hand, you've created a false dichotomy in the second paragraph. Not wanting Ganondorf to be a slower, heavier Falcon is not the same thing as wanting him to be a slower, heavier character X - and with Sakurai having put goodness knows how many swordsmen into the game this time and made them feel sufficiently distinct it seems reasonable to assume he'd be able to design the character without making it a clone of someone else.

In any case I genuinely quite like the way you've proposed updating the character of his moveset (without massively changing the flavour) but am wholly unconvinced here.

 

[Quillion]

You mean the stomp that is an innate weakness of all Mario enemies besides Bowser? The stomp that can be performed on them by litterally anyone in the various SSB adventure modes? The stomp used to introduce Luigi in Melee? The stomp that gave rise to footstooling in Brawl?

Yeah, that's in everyone's moveset now. Why would we restrict it to Mario?

In Melee, predating the footstool, Zelda, DK, Falcon, Ganondorf, and Ness had stomping attacks as their d-airs.

I don't see anyone wanting Mario (nor Doc and Luigi) to have the same.

 

[A Distant Demon]

In Melee, predating the footstool, Zelda, DK, Falcon, Ganondorf, and Ness had stomping attacks as their d-airs.

I don't see anyone wanting Mario (nor Doc and Luigi) to have the same.

I think you're over analyzing this one part of Mario when he has plenty of other moves ripped right from the mario games.
Hell, jumping is already a special. Up B.

I mean, i'm not really a zelda fan, but I wouldnt mind if one of the most important characters in the series wasn't derivative from a completely unrelated series.

DJ3DS kind of says the rest better than I could

and if it wasn't for the fact the hammer was an item, I would be pissed it wasnt in his moveset.

 

[Quillion]

I think you're over analyzing this one part of Mario when he has plenty of other moves ripped right from the mario games.

So does Ganondorf, but people like to hypocritically ignore that.

 

[ryuu seika]

In Melee, predating the footstool, Zelda, DK, Falcon, Ganondorf, and Ness had stomping attacks as their d-airs.
I don't see anyone wanting Mario (nor Doc and Luigi) to have the same.

So four characters had a stomp. Big deal.
It's not like Mario had anything like that in his source material. All he had was the ability to deal damage upon landing.

Except, if we look elsewhere in Melee, he may not have even had that. According to Adventure mode, all mushroom kingdom enemies have being landed on as a weakness, Mario or not.

 

[Blackwolf666]

Y'know, there was something someone told me about a potential gimmick for a swordsman ganondorf that'd make him different from previous swordsman... give him the ability to sheath and pull out his blade. I'll let him type it out in his own words

his own words:
"With his neutral b he'd pull out a sword that'd change how some of his attacks work primarily both the ground and air "A attacks" but the trade off would be that he can't grab and pressing the grab button while sword is out would cause him to drop it and after that it'd act like wario's bike other people can pick it up but it'd be heavy and they cant use it as a sword. pressing b again would make him to a swing that not only damages enemies but acts as a reflect."
his own words end

Personally, I think it has potential since ganondorf doesn't always use swords. Also like I said before (or rather posted a picture hoping people would understand what I was saying without saying it) introduce Black Shadow as a new character and just give him Ganon's current move set to lessen the impact of Ganon's new moves on people that like the current move set.

edit: while I'm here I should point out that the reason I mentioned Marth and Link earlier was to try and make the point that because 2 characters have X in common does not mean that they'll play the same. Looks like that fell on deaf ears.

 

[Quillion]

edit: while I'm here I should point out that the reason I mentioned Marth and Link earlier was to try and make the point that because 2 characters have X in common does not mean that they'll play the same. Looks like that fell on deaf ears.

I get that, it's just that i don't see any way for Ganondorf to be revamped and not be like Ike or Mewtwo. Hell, my moveset idea is nearly an Ike clone in terms of playstyle.

 

[kirbstr]

I get that, it's just that i don't see any way for Ganondorf to be revamped and not be like Ike or Mewtwo. Hell, my moveset idea is nearly an Ike clone in terms of playstyle.

Every smash game people hype up the potential for ganondorf to get a full revamp, and sakurai has stated again and again that he keeps him that way to make him more loyal to how he was in his first smash bros appearance. The best that will happen is custom moves potentially becoming his main attacks.

He's not even that captain falcon anymore, the only special that works similarly is wizard foot and even then it has different properties and design.

He would NOT work well like mewtwo and ESPECIALLY not like Ike. Ganondorf is a "smash bros" character now, he will probably be the same for the rest of the series for the sake of consistency.

 

[Quillion]

Every smash game people hype up the potential for ganondorf to get a full revamp, and sakurai has stated again and again that he keeps him that way to make him more loyal to how he was in his first smash bros appearance.

Has he really said that? I know he said something similar for Dr. Mario, but that was entirely because of his "individuality from Mario" (despite that in reality, there's barely any difference, as proven by hackers).

As far as we know, the reason why he keeps Ganon the same in spite of admittedly vocal demand is a complete mystery.

 

[kirbstr]

Has he really said that? I know he said something similar for Dr. Mario, but that was entirely because of his "individuality from Mario" (despite that in reality, there's barely any difference, as proven by hackers).

As far as we know, the reason why he keeps Ganon the same in spite of admittedly vocal demand is a complete mystery.

There was an interview he did with Famitsu a few years ago in which he explains that he originally added him in last second to melee so that people wouldn't be upset that he wasn't in the game. He then explained that as the years went on and he developed the character more, he started to draw connections between the way ganondorf handled in smash and his late father and couldn't bring himself to change the character. I also think he "mained" him in brawl. So it just boils down to a lot of personal bias.

EDIT: Couldn't find the origional article, here is a link to an image of a translation: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/847/294/29b.png

 

[Swamp Sensei]

to make him more loyal to how he was in his first smash bros appearance.

You've twisted Sakurai's logic here.

He stayed largely the same because Sakurai didn't want to alienate people who liked Ganondorf's gameplay style. It's the same reason clones are never fully decloned.

There was an interview he did with Famitsu a few years ago in which he explains that he originally added him in last second to melee so that people wouldn't be upset that he wasn't in the game. He then explained that as the years went on and he developed the character more, he started to draw connections between the way ganondorf handled in smash and his late father and couldn't bring himself to change the character. I also think he "mained" him in brawl. So it just boils down to a lot of personal bias.

EDIT: Couldn't find the origional article, here is a link to an image of a translation: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/847/294/29b.png

You are taking his personal musings a bit too seriously there.

 

[ryuu seika]

He stayed largely the same because Sakurai didn't want to alienate people who liked Ganondorf's gameplay style. It's the same reason clones are never fully decloned.

The way it was stated post-SSB WiiU was very much blaming the fans' own hatred of change and implying that Sakurai can't handle the resulting criticism. Which seems odd, given the complaints he gets over keeping Ganondorf the same.

As for the whole "He'd be a clone of Ike" thing, Ike is a heavier swordsman but he's not a big, far reaching Swordsman. Ganondorf, in some incarnations, uses what is practically a zweihander.

Ike is a swordsman and he's practically Nightmare from Soul Calibur, with reflector properties on some of his sword attacks. There's no real comparison between them.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The way it was stated post-SSB WiiU was very much blaming the fans' own hatred of change and implying that Sakurai can't handle the resulting criticism. Which seems odd, given the complaints he gets over keeping Ganondorf the same.

As for the whole "He'd be a clone of Ike" thing, Ike is a heavier swordsman but he's not a big, far reaching Swordsman. Ganondorf, in some incarnations, uses what is practically a zweihander.

Ike is a swordsman and he's practically Nightmare from Soul Calibur, with reflector properties on some of his sword attacks. There's no real comparison between them.

I think you're looking into things that aren't there. He wasn't blaming anybody. Goodness gracious. Sakurai has never been afraid of criticism. I doubt Ganondorf would be the one thing to break him there even if there's that odd connection to his dad.

And where the heck is this reflector property thing coming from? Ike doesn't have any of that and as far as I know, neither does Nightmare (not too well versed into Soul Calibur). That said I'm fairly certain Ragnell, Ike's blade is a zweihandler, isn't it?



As for my opinion on the matter, I think Sakurai is already doing the smart thing. He's working clones away from their counterpart bit by bit. Full moveset revamps have been known to alienate players. I mean look at Juri and her player base in Street Fighter V.

Like, think of Ken and Akuma from Street Fighter. They started off as different but still close to Ryu. They changed game by game. Nowadays, the inspiration is still there but they all branched out and each have unique attacks now. I think Sakurai is doing that and I gotta say it's fairly smart.

 

[ryuu seika]

As somebody who barely plays Streetfighter, half the cast still look like Ryu clones from the outside, even if there is canon reason for it. It's the same as how I tolerate Wolf and Falco but would much rather have Krystal or accept that Luigi has a logical reason to be a slippery Mario with different specials.

The difference is, Ganondorf hasn't trained under Falcon or a shared master, isn't his obsessive brother, doesn't come from the same squadren and hasn't had all his gadgets made by the same supplier. There is no connection between them. No reason for them to be so similar.

Yes, Ganondorf now has a choke hold and he's the right sort of slow and deadly but that's pretty much all he has in terms of his canon character.

...Ike's blade is a zweihandler, isn't it?

In canon? Maybe. In Smash Bros gameplay? Hell no.

And where the heck is this reflector property thing coming from? Ike doesn't have any of that and as far as I know, neither does Nightmare (not too well versed into Soul Calibur).

There aren't many projectiles in Soul Calibur so it would hardly be relevant if nightmare did but no. That was a suggestion for a uniquely Ganondorf element. The batting back and forth of energy projectiles is probably the most consistent part of his fighting style.

As for my opinion on the matter, I think Sakurai is already doing the smart thing. He's working clones away from their counterpart bit by bit. Full moveset revamps have been known to alienate players.

The "smart thing" is quite debatable. Yes, there is an element of intelligence to easing people through the decloning process but, if it's still going to be decades before we see anything even remotely resembling an actual Ganondorf, was it really that smart to add him in the first place?

This is why I hate all those "clones take no time to make, we lose nothing by having them in the game" comments. We've already lost the possibility of a real Ganondorf any time in the foreseeable lifetime of the franchise, what more is needed for them to accept that non-Pichu clones are bad.