Official Veterans Discussion

[Kagg109]

ice climbers and young link are the only veterans i want back for smash switch. ice climbers have a pretty good chance. but young links chance on returning is very slim unfortunately.

 

[splat]

ice climbers and young link are the only veterans i want back for smash switch. ice climbers have a pretty good chance. but young links chance on returning is very slim unfortunately.

So would you want to see three Links (we'd have a chain!), or would you want to see YL replace TL again? I kind of feel people only tolerate TL because he's significantly different visually from 'regular' Link and because there have been quite a few cel-shades Zelda games. YL is visually (or at least, in style) similar to OGL and was present in the same games. I'd much rather see TL be luigified a bit more (two or three additional moves would be enough for me, though -- I like what the similar Links represent).

As for what I'd like to see for other veterans:
- Give DK and Diddy their DKCTF voices
- Give Peach a new neutral special (for Toad's sake)
- Palutena could do with some other specials for her basic set, I'd say
- Zelda needs some love. I really don't care for her new down special
- Lucina should (in case she returns, that is) get some minor changes to her stats: slightly lighter than Marth, perhaps slight different speeds, etc.
- Give ROB a new side special. I feel his current is a bit bland and doesn't really fit his zoning theme
- Get Wolf and the Ice Climbers back in there (and perhaps Snake, too!)
- Slowly start luigifying Dark Pit (should he return) - perhaps by giving him unique specials (as there are tons of items in Uprisig). At least give his side special some altered values!
- Give Jiggs some additional VFX that displays its Fairy typing
- Change Samus' up smash to something with a little more oomph
- Give Mewtwo a proper side special (or down special, disable would work as a side special fairly good, too). Perhaps Light Screen, working similar to what Gardevoir does would work - or maybe even Psystrike, which debuffs opponents hit causing them to take more damage - or even Psywave, a move which you could charge, which would let out a pulse in all directions (think Tabuu's Off Waves, but weaker)

 

[Ben Holt]

I'd like to see Donkey Kong's Side Special replaced with a barrel throw. It's an absolute crime that DK's moveset completely lacks barrels.
It'd have the same lag as his current Side-Special, and even the same effect if the barrel hits before it rolls on the ground.
Imagine his established Side-Special but instead of burying opponents with his head it'd be him smashing a barrel into the ground, and if it doesn't hit an opponent, it would roll on the ground, giving DK a decent projectile.

 

[SmasherRancher]

My idea is that they should add a Adventure Mode since the 3DS and Wii U didn't.
PLOT: All the veterans (including Ice Climbers) would have a team up until the 3DS and Wii U characters come in and:
+ THEM! (which means SMASH ATTACK THEM!!!)
Then there should be a battle!

vs !
then

vs
and so on!

 

[Murlough]

So would you want to see three Links (we'd have a chain!), or would you want to see YL replace TL again? I kind of feel people only tolerate TL because he's significantly different visually from 'regular' Link and because there have been quite a few cel-shades Zelda games. YL is visually (or at least, in style) similar to OGL and was present in the same games. I'd much rather see TL be luigified a bit more (two or three additional moves would be enough for me, though -- I like what the similar Links represent).

As for what I'd like to see for other veterans:
- Give DK and Diddy their DKCTF voices
- Give Peach a new neutral special (for Toad's sake)
- Palutena could do with some other specials for her basic set, I'd say
- Zelda needs some love. I really don't care for her new down special
- Lucina should (in case she returns, that is) get some minor changes to her stats: slightly lighter than Marth, perhaps slight different speeds, etc.
- Give ROB a new side special. I feel his current is a bit bland and doesn't really fit his zoning theme
- Get Wolf and the Ice Climbers back in there (and perhaps Snake, too!)
- Slowly start luigifying Dark Pit (should he return) - perhaps by giving him unique specials (as there are tons of items in Uprisig). At least give his side special some altered values!
- Give Jiggs some additional VFX that displays its Fairy typing
- Change Samus' up smash to something with a little more oomph
- Give Mewtwo a proper side special (or down special, disable would work as a side special fairly good, too). Perhaps Light Screen, working similar to what Gardevoir does would work - or maybe even Psystrike, which debuffs opponents hit causing them to take more damage - or even Psywave, a move which you could charge, which would let out a pulse in all directions (think Tabuu's Off Waves, but weaker)

I main Palutena and Mewtwo and I'm not a fan of your suggestions on them. :/

Mewtwo's confusion is too valuable to lose in my opinion. His zoning game would take a significant hit which would hurt M2s viability more than I'd like. Disable can go but I'd prefer it didn't. Probably one of the most balanced moves in the game honestly.

Palutena I'm fifty-fifty on. Her Teleport is great and her side-b is definately a boon. Her Autoreticle needs adjusting for sure but it doesn't need to be replaced entirely.

Her counter is garbage get it the **** outta here pleaaaase.

Keep in mind we are both entitled to our opinions and I respect yours just felt like voicing my own.

What Palutena needs is a new f-tilt, a new up-tilt, a new down-smash, a new down-special and maaaybe a new F-Smash. Everything else can make her a solid character with some adjustments.

She absolutely needs better frame data in general. Her Upsmash is great as is but make the visual and the hitboxes match. Fair is solid. Bair is great. Upair is great. Nair is great but more/better autocancel frames would be nice. Make the move not last so long. I rarely use Dair. Won't care if it goes one way or the other. If it autocanceled like Fox Up-air it would be hilariously fun in friendlies.

Make down-tilt just a tad faster. Jab is great. Rapid Jab is fairly meh. Dash attack is perfect in my opinion. Invincibility gives it a niche and it has decent kill power which makes up for its poor end lag.

Mewtwo is perfect as he is. Not broken and not trash can tiers of awful. Removing rage jank would be more than enough to satisfy me. Dying at 50% I can accept. Dying at 0%? Come on now....

Zelda is tough since they seem to like her moveset. She'll never be good unless they make her Sheik fast with an easily autocanceled fair.

They absolutely need to get rid of some of the crap though. Going into freefall after a side-b is STUPID. Going for (however many) frames after teleporting without being able to drift is STUPID.

Her down special needs....I honestly don't know. I'd say kill power but honestly it should probably just go. I'm doubteful they'll change it since they just added it but heres hoping.

Lucina deserves a rework. Add Chrom with 4's Lucina moveset if they really just like it.

R.o.b. could seriously use a new-side special. Its really, really bad as it is now. xD

I agree on Dark Pit. Luigify away!

Edit: sorry for the book guys.

 

[Luminario]

I main Palutena and Mewtwo and I'm not a fan of your suggestions on them. :/

Mewtwo's confusion is too valuable to lose in my opinion. His zoning game would take a significant hit which would hurt M2s viability more than I'd like. Disable can go but I'd prefer it didn't. Probably one of the most balanced moves in the game honestly.

Palutena I'm fifty-fifty on. Her Teleport is great and her side-b is definately a boon. Her Autoreticle needs adjusting for sure but it doesn't need to be replaced entirely.

Her counter is garbage get it the **** outta here pleaaaase.

Keep in mind we are both entitled to our opinions and I respect yours just felt like voicing my own.

What Palutena needs is a new f-tilt, a new up-tilt, a new down-smash, a new down-special and maaaybe a new F-Smash. Everything else can make her a solid character with some adjustments.

She absolutely needs better frame data in general. Her Upsmash is great as is but make the visual and the hitboxes match. Fair is solid. Bair is great. Upair is great. Nair is great but more/better autocancel frames would be nice. Make the move not last so long. I rarely use Dair. Won't care if it goes one way or the other. If it autocanceled like Fox Up-air it would be hilariously fun in friendlies.

Make down-tilt just a tad faster. Jab is great. Rapid Jab is fairly meh. Dash attack is perfect in my opinion. Invincibility gives it a niche and it has decent kill power which makes up for its poor end lag.

Mewtwo is perfect as he is. Not broken and not trash can tiers of awful. Removing rage jank would be more than enough to satisfy me. Dying at 50% I can accept. Dying at 0%? Come on now....

Zelda is tough since they seem to like her moveset. She'll never be good unless they make her Sheik fast with an easily autocanceled fair.

They absolutely need to get rid of some of the crap though. Going into freefall after a side-b is STUPID. Going for (however many) frames after teleporting without being able to drift is STUPID.

Her down special needs....I honestly don't know. I'd say kill power but honestly it should probably just go. I'm doubteful they'll change it since they just added it but heres hoping.

Lucina deserves a rework. Add Chrom with 4's Lucina moveset if they really just like it.

R.o.b. could seriously use a new-side special. Its really, really bad as it is now. xD

I agree on Dark Pit. Luigify away!

Edit: sorry for the book guys.

They should really change Palutena's Reflect's effect though. I'd be happy to exchange the pushing effect of it for more time the barrier is active. The entire selling point of it is that it hangs around as you do other stuff but then balance got to it and it's time was reduced dramatically. I agree on everything else, though I do love the Goddess Wings Fsmash and Dsmash; they look so cool and the windbox can be useful.
With Ftilt I'd like it if they change it to the shield bash of dash and Bair, complete with the invincibility for a second. I can see what they were going for with making Ftilt unclankable but in practice it stops her opponents attacks and leaves them free to punish her and it's too slow to be useful in most situations. Making it a shield bash makes it much more defensive.

Zelda's Phantom Slash doesn't really need any more kill power, that thing is a beast fully charged, you need to be able to cancel it and for it to not take 9 seconds to regenerate after being destroyed.

 

[FunAtParties]

Here's a question, let's say custom moves get kicked, would there be any custom attacks you'd like to see promoted as a default?

 

[A Distant Demon]

Here's a question, let's say custom moves get kicked, would there be any custom attacks you'd like to see promoted as a default?

Palutena palutena palutena palutena palutena


Give her Lightweight and Super Speed. maybe explosive flame too.

Her current specials are the most boring out of all of her customs and also some of her worst. Lightweight is just too good.

 

[FunAtParties]

Palutena palutena palutena palutena palutena


Give her Lightweight and Super Speed. maybe explosive flame too.

Her current specials are the most boring out of all of her customs and also some of her worst. Lightweight is just too good.

I don't mind most of her current specials, but some of her customs are really cool. I also like Jump Glide, but it can use some tweaks.

 

[Megadoomer]

Here's a question, let's say custom moves get kicked, would there be any custom attacks you'd like to see promoted as a default?

Give Ganondorf Warlock Blade as his default over Warlock Punch. I don't know how one stacks up to the other (how they're better or worse), but it seems ridiculous that Ganondorf's a sword-wielding wizard in the Zelda games but only uses a sword in one taunt and a custom move in Smash. (plus, it would help to further differentiate him from Captain Falcon, at least a little)

 

[FunAtParties]

Give Ganondorf Warlock Blade as his default over Warlock Punch. I don't know how one stacks up to the other (how they're better or worse), but it seems ridiculous that Ganondorf's a sword-wielding wizard in the Zelda games but only uses a sword in one taunt and a custom move in Smash. (plus, it would help to further differentiate him from Captain Falcon, at least a little)

Definitely though I'd rather him just get redone altogether.

 

[Opossum]

Reflect and Auto-Reticle are fine conceptually, but need buffs. Jump Glide and Lightweight should be her new Up and Down specials, respectively.

 

[Luminario]

Give Ganondorf Warlock Blade as his default over Warlock Punch. I don't know how one stacks up to the other (how they're better or worse), but it seems ridiculous that Ganondorf's a sword-wielding wizard in the Zelda games but only uses a sword in one taunt and a custom move in Smash. (plus, it would help to further differentiate him from Captain Falcon, at least a little)

I really can't get over the fact they actually gave Ganny a sword but outside of customs they locked it to a taunt for 2 games.

Also the problem with choosing 4 of Palutena's specials is that so many of them are pretty unique, so choosing 4 of them and getting rid of the rest is quite hard. This is why I want a stance move so bad, so she has access to many more specials without needing customs. If I had to choose, then Heavenly Light, Super Speed, Warp, and Celestial Firework.
Also Zelda should get a version of Din's Flare, as Flare is how it should have been in the first place, a long range pestering tool without being balanced off of kill power.

 

[Curious Villager]

Here's a question, let's say custom moves get kicked, would there be any custom attacks you'd like to see promoted as a default?

They should update Toon Link's Sliding Spin attack and turn it into his signature Hurricane Spin attack from the Zelda series (At least whenever he's on the ground and fully charging it, the old spin attack can stay whenever he's in the air or leaves it uncharged), especially if custom moves won't return. I'm kind of astounded as to how they updated his spin attack trail effect to match up with the trail he gave off whenever he performed the Hurricane Spin in the Wind Waker yet he still can't actually use it outside of the Sliding spin attack custom move, which is basically the closest thing he has to his signature move...

 

[FunAtParties]

I really can't get over the fact they actually gave Ganny a sword but outside of customs they locked it to a taunt for 2 games.

Also the problem with choosing 4 of Palutena's specials is that so many of them are pretty unique, so choosing 4 of them and getting rid of the rest is quite hard. This is why I want a stance move so bad, so she has access to many more specials without needing customs. If I had to choose, then Heavenly Light, Super Speed, Warp, and Celestial Firework.
Also Zelda should get a version of Din's Flare, as Flare is how it should have been in the first place, a long range pestering tool without being balanced off of kill power.

I'm going to rank my favorite Palutena specials seeing as that seems to be a point of discussion.

NS:
1 Explosive Flame
2 Auto Reticle
3 Heavenly Light

SS:
1 Super Speed
2 Reflect Barrier
3 Angelic Missile

US:
1 Jump Glide*
2 Warp
3 Rocket Jump

DS:
1 Celestial Fireworks
2 Lightweight
3 Counter*

(Most favorite and least favorite of all specials)

[Subject to change]

- I love Jump Glide and I love how it works, I'd love to see it above all else. I think it'd work well if it was combined with Super Speed.

- I'm not a huge fan of Lightweight like everyone else is. I just don't like ability/attribute changes in movesets. That being said, I'm not really big on any of the other down specials either, so it'd work for me.

 

[Luminario]

I'm going to rank my favorite Palutena specials seeing as that seems to be a point of discussion.

NS:
1 Explosive Flame
2 Auto Reticle
3 Heavenly Light

SS:
1 Super Speed
2 Reflect Barrier
3 Angelic Missile

US:
1 Jump Glide*
2 Warp
3 Rocket Jump

DS:
1 Celestial Fireworks
2 Lightweight
3 Counter*

(Most favorite and least favorite of all specials)

[Subject to change]

- I love Jump Glide and I love how it works, I'd love to see it above all else. I think it'd work well if it was combined with Super Speed.

- I'm not a huge fan of Lightweight like everyone else is. I just don't like ability/attribute changes in movesets. That being said, I'm not really big on any of the other down specials either, so it'd work for me.

That's another problem with only choosing 4 Palu specials to keep, everyone's got that one special they love above all others. For me it's Heavenly Light, simply cause it looks gorgeous and I'm very superficial when it comes to gorgeous looking attacks. I'd rather see it changed into a AOE attack that you summon then leave it to continue doing damage as you move about yourself instead of what it is now though.
I'd be overjoyed if she had all your 1st specials, Explosive Flame and Celestial Fireworks would likely be much more reliable than the defaults right now and Super Speed is incredible. I'd only accept Jump Glide if they remove the weakness of being unable to use it again if you flinch though.

 

[FunAtParties]

That's another problem with only choosing 4 Palu specials to keep, everyone's got that one special they love above all others. For me it's Heavenly Light, simply cause it looks gorgeous and I'm very superficial when it comes to gorgeous looking attacks. I'd rather see it changed into a AOE attack that you summon then leave it to continue doing damage as you move about yourself instead of what it is now though.
I'd be overjoyed if she had all your 1st specials, Explosive Flame and Celestial Fireworks would likely be much more reliable than the defaults right now and Super Speed is incredible. I'd only accept Jump Glide if they remove the weakness of being unable to use it again if you flinch though.

(On Jump Glide)You mean when you press down you go into freefall right? Yeah I think it's stupid, especially because she can attack out of it already.

Heavenly Light need a to be changed to come back, but I too like it. It just doesn't really do anything right now.

 

[Murlough]

They should really change Palutena's Reflect's effect though. I'd be happy to exchange the pushing effect of it for more time the barrier is active. The entire selling point of it is that it hangs around as you do other stuff but then balance got to it and it's time was reduced dramatically. I agree on everything else, though I do love the Goddess Wings Fsmash and Dsmash; they look so cool and the windbox can be useful.
With Ftilt I'd like it if they change it to the shield bash of dash and Bair, complete with the invincibility for a second. I can see what they were going for with making Ftilt unclankable but in practice it stops her opponents attacks and leaves them free to punish her and it's too slow to be useful in most situations. Making it a shield bash makes it much more defensive.

Zelda's Phantom Slash doesn't really need any more kill power, that thing is a beast fully charged, you need to be able to cancel it and for it to not take 9 seconds to regenerate after being destroyed.

Holy crap I've never agreed so much with someone. I really want ftilt gone but I couldn't think of anything. A quickish shield bash would be sick.

I also like her Wing Smash attacks. I think the downward one looks janky at certain points but fsmashs visual is gorgeous.

Zelda's Phantom Slash will rarely if ever land after being fully charged so the full knockback of it is negligable imo. Being able to cancel is a great idea and 9 secs is way too long for such an underwhelming attack.

 

[Luminario]

Holy crap I've never agreed so much with someone. I really want ftilt gone but I couldn't think of anything. A quickish shield bash would be sick.

I also like her Wing Smash attacks. I think the downward one looks janky at certain points but fsmashs visual is gorgeous.

Zelda's Phantom Slash will rarely if ever land after being fully charged so the full knockback of it is negligable imo. Being able to cancel is a great idea and 9 secs is way too long for such an underwhelming attack.

I used to think that the Goddess Wings were a bad idea cause she had other light powers she could use in their place, but then they really grew on me to become one of my fave smash attacks in the game to use.
That a good point, the only times I land the fully charged version is on lower level players who don't really know it's drawbacks. At higher levels I get punished for even attempting to use it. As usual, it got balanced off of it's kill power instead of being balanced as a defensive wall. It could be a 2 part attack instead, where you summon it to simply stand there to begin with then press down B again for it to swipe with it's sword.

(On Jump Glide)You mean when you press down you go into freefall right? Yeah I think it's stupid, especially because she can attack out of it already.

Heavenly Light need a to be changed to come back, but I too like it. It just doesn't really do anything right now.

Actually according to the smash wiki Jump Glide can't be used again until you land if you flinch at all while using it, which is a horrible for a recovery with no hitbox on its own.
They could easily balance Heavenly Light to be horizontally shorter and do less damage in order for it to attack separately from Palu. It's a unique attack, and visually suits Palu more than Auto-reticle or Counter.

 

[Metalex]

On the topic of Palutena i think it would be best if they just gave her a stance switch move like someone suggested (replacing Down B) so she could seamlessly switch between two sets of specials as she has so many unique customs.

Alternatively she could be the first to have Smash specials. My idea for this would be:

Smash Up B - Jump Glide
Tilt Up B - Warp

Smash Side B - Super Speed
Tilt Side B - Reflect

Smash Down B - Counter (Celestial Fireworks could be as good too)
Tilt Down B - Lightweight

Neutral B - Autorectile (Or could be reworked so it's Explosive Flame when B is held and Autorectile if you tap B)

 

[Luminario]

Another change I'd like to see is using more Plasma Whip attacks in her moveset. Fsmash could have easily be changed into a double whip attack instead of a double kick and Up B could have her rise with the whip circling around her body before the kick at the end instead of the awkward split she does as she rises right now. It's a really cool weapon and it should really be used much more.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

On the topic of Palutena i think it would be best if they just gave her a stance switch move like someone suggested (replacing Down B) so she could seamlessly switch between two sets of specials as she has so many unique customs.

Alternatively she could be the first to have Smash specials. My idea for this would be:

Smash Up B - Jump Glide
Tilt Up B - Warp

Smash Side B - Super Speed
Tilt Side B - Reflect

Smash Down B - Counter (Celestial Fireworks could be as good too)
Tilt Down B - Lightweight

Neutral B - Autorectile (Or could be reworked so it's Explosive Flame when B is held and Autorectile if you tap B)

If we're being strictly accurate, Samus has it on her side B becoming super missiles but that sounds like a good idea. Though I'd put rocket jump as the smash UP. Seems more impactful.

 

[Metalex]

If we're being strictly accurate, Samus has it on her side B becoming super missiles but that sounds like a good idea. Though I'd put rocket jump as the smash UP. Seems more impactful.

Haha that's very true! Didn't think of Samus missiles!

And yeah, that could be a good idea although i would swap Warp with Jumpglide then as it's quite unique.
I mostly chose Warp and Jumpglide as they seem to be by far the most used/liked ones.

 

[Deleted member]

One buff would really need is for his Vision.

Like, if his Vision is triggered when his opponent attack him from below while he's in the air, you could push the stick downward to attack them back.

If you could knew how many times Vision put me on a disadvantagious position when I miss the opponent...

 

[ryuu seika]

If you could knew how many times Vision put me on a disadvantagious position when I miss the opponent...

Serves you right. It's a ridiculous move in that it becomes active super fast (like, throw it out reactively levels of fast), prevents you from taking a hit, stays active for a long time AND has stupid range when it becomes an attack. Having a way to punish it is a must.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Serves you right. It's a ridiculous move in that it becomes active super fast (like, throw it out reactively levels of fast), prevents you from taking a hit, stays active for a long time AND has stupid range when it becomes an attack. Having a way to punish it is a must.

Here is a really easy way to punish it.

Don't attack a counter.

 

[Opossum]

Here is a really easy way to punish it.

Don't attack a counter.

Vision still shouldn't be buffed.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Vision still shouldn't be buffed.

I agree it doesn't need a buff.

Serves you right. It's a ridiculous move

But stuff like this is just the sign of a player who doesn't play very well.

The only counter that really needs a change right now is Palutena's due to it being undertuned.

 

[Autumn ♫]

I'd personally make Shulk's counter a bit shorter. I can't count how many times I thought he missed a counter, then go to punish only to find out his counter was still activated.

 

[lordvaati]

least it's not like Greninja who has a counter that's dying to justify it's existence.
It's to the point were Shadow Sneak seems a more reliable option then that.

 

[ryuu seika]

Here is a really easy way to punish it.
Don't attack a counter.

So only ever Up B Shulk. Got it.
Seriously, though, while the perfect reaction time it needs is often too much to ask of a player, Vision is actually quick enough to be a response, rather than a prediction. It becomes active faster than a large chunk of Kirby's moveset.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So only ever Up B Shulk. Got it.

Kirby can just grab or inhale the counter.

Kirby gets great reward off of grabs.

Try that.

 

[Dr.Turtle]

How do people feel about Ice Climber-ing Pichu into the Pichu Bros?

 

[nirvanafan]

How do people feel about Ice Climber-ing Pichu into the Pichu Bros?

If they were to bring pichu back I would say this is the way to go, it gives pichu a bit more distinction from pikachu and may even have some potential to be a bit more unique.

 

[ryuu seika]

Rip off an existing character to turn a unique and highly recognisable veteran into some obscure character duo I've barely heard of? No. Why would you do that?!

If you're turning any Pikachu variant into an ICs derivative, it should be Plussle and Minun as they have greater significance, don't ruin a veteran and could actually bring something unique to the role with a separation distance matters magnetism gimmick.

 

[Oddball]

I'd just straight up rather not have Pichu return at all.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Rip off an existing character to turn a unique and highly recognisable veteran into some obscure character duo I've barely heard of? No. Why would you do that?!

If you're turning any Pikachu variant into an ICs derivative, it should be Plussle and Minun as they have greater significance, don't ruin a veteran and could actually bring something unique to the role with a separation distance matters magnetism gimmick.

You barely heard of the Pichu Bros?

Dude that's where I learned about Pichu.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

I think that the Ice Climber, being one or two at a time, is fit for smash. However, I do not think that any other character should get the 2-in-1 mechanic. Heck, I think Rosa should do away with Luma altogether. The reason they were put into Melee is their unique mechanic, and they will lose their identity if others copy it. If hardware limitations prevent Nana coming, Pope should still stay simply based on the fact that not one Melee veteran has left us besides the Icees.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

. However, I do not think that any other character should get the 2-in-1 mechanic. Heck, I think Rosa should do away with Luma altogether

The mechanics of the Ice Climbers and Rosalina and Luma are entirely different.

They have very little overlap.

 

[ryuu seika]

I think that the Ice Climber, being one or two at a time, is fit for smash. However, I do not think that any other character should get the 2-in-1 mechanic. Heck, I think Rosa should do away with Luma altogether. The reason they were put into Melee is their unique mechanic, and they will lose their identity if others copy it. If hardware limitations prevent Nana coming, Pope should still stay simply based on the fact that not one Melee veteran has left us besides the Icees.

They were put into Melee as a retro icon. Their gimmick only mattered come Brawl, where it was their past popularity that kept them in.

That said, they are nothing without their gimmick and so should most definitely not be cut down to solo Popo. Both ICs or none please.

Rosalina is pushing it, in terms of standing on their toes, but Luma is an assist, not a full blown partner, and very clearly comes across as such. I'd love it if they would change the character name to reflect that, though.