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Official Veterans Discussion

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Opossum

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I mainly just care whether or not my mains come back, but considering they've never cut an entire series outside of technical or licensing issues, :4littlemac: should be fine, and :4mario: is obviously staying...


...that just leaves :4pacman:. For what it's worth, I do think Pac-Man is the most likely non-Sega third party to return, but he's still not a guarantee (by nature of being third party).

Just bring Pac-Man back and I'll be good.
 
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This is just what I personally want for Greninja if he appears in Smash for the Switch.

I know nothing about Pokemon, so I did some research. The first normal I would modify is F-air which I would change to aerial ace. It would be a disjoint, and have the hitbox come out on frame 8, and disappear on 10, having 15 less frames of end lag, it's basically a better version standard F-air. I would keep most of the other aerials the same, because they create his combo game, while F-air is mostly used for spacing.

I would switch substitute (down special) with protean, and give it something like Cloud's limit charge mechanic. Protean is an ability that makes it so your type changes to the type of the move you previously used (for example, if Greninja used F-air (aerial ace) after fully charging protean, he would be a flying type which would increase his air speed(?). Shadow sneak (side special) is useless in almost all situations, with its only good attribute being SSHC (shadow sneak hitstun cancelling). The only substitute for side special I could think of is something like a grounded Pikachu quick attack, but instead of instantly moving you to a location, it temporarily increases your speed until you use an attack, or it times out after five seconds.

So there ya' go. Making Greninja overpowered.
 

Kirbeh

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This is just what I personally want for Greninja if he appears in Smash for the Switch.

I know nothing about Pokemon, so I did some research. The first normal I would modify is F-air which I would change to aerial ace. It would be a disjoint, and have the hitbox come out on frame 8, and disappear on 10, having 15 less frames of end lag, it's basically a better version standard F-air. I would keep most of the other aerials the same, because they create his combo game, while F-air is mostly used for spacing.

I would switch substitute (down special) with protean, and give it something like Cloud's limit charge mechanic. Protean is an ability that makes it so your type changes to the type of the move you previously used (for example, if Greninja used F-air (aerial ace) after fully charging protean, he would be a flying type which would increase his air speed(?). Shadow sneak (side special) is useless in almost all situations, with its only good attribute being SSHC (shadow sneak hitstun cancelling). The only substitute for side special I could think of is something like a grounded Pikachu quick attack, but instead of instantly moving you to a location, it temporarily increases your speed until you use an attack, or it times out after five seconds.

So there ya' go. Making Greninja overpowered.
Why not just apply those changes to his existing FAIR? I don't really see the point in changing the actual attack animation to Aerial Ace of all things (Though I suppose it fits based on the attack description.). Well I see why with your choice of Protean, but I don't think that'd work very well to be honest. Type changes don't change stats, they change type advantages/disadvantages. I do sort of see what you were going for, but if you want Greninja to be able to buff its stats you could give him Work Up (though this raises attack and special attack not speed.)

It really depends on what exactly you're going for with these changes. He could lay traps on the stage if he were given Spikes. These could damage opponents that stepped on them. He could have his second signature move, Mat Block, which could be used as physical shield that stays on the stage for a little while until it takes enough damage and breaks.

Overall though, I'm quite fond of how Greninja is already, though some customs that incorporated actual additional moves from Pokemon instead of variations of what he already has in Smash would be neat.
 

FunAtParties

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I like Greninja's design outside of substitute. I like the idea of Substitute too, just not how it was executed (another counter). I don't think we need Protean, it would just make Greninja another Shulk.
 

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Should they return? Yes, absolutely. Bring them all back if possible.

I just hope that Duck Hunt comes back for the next hunting season. :4duckhunt:
 

NonSpecificGuy

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I mainly just care whether or not my mains come back, but considering they've never cut an entire series outside of technical or licensing issues, :4littlemac: should be fine, and :4mario: is obviously staying...


...that just leaves :4pacman:. For what it's worth, I do think Pac-Man is the most likely non-Sega third party to return, but he's still not a guarantee (by nature of being third party).

Just bring Pac-Man back and I'll be good.
Pac-Man is definitely safe in my opinion. Bamco is pretty well ingrained in the roots of Smash to make keeping him in a no brainer. I'm not to worried about any of the DLC characters either. All things considered a hefty amount of work was put into them to make them all feel unique. Even Roy and Lucas who are technically semi-clones or whatever are unique enough to warrant their return. Wolf is still absolutely baffling to me as to why he didn't return. I understand Sakurai didn't want it to seem like they were locking away content to sell later but that's still a sorry excuse considering how much demand there was for him.
 

Capybara Gaming

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At this point, as long as Sakurai is directing I can't see any third parties getting the shaft, and might even potentially see Snake coming back.

Sonic's been in two games now and we the old rival, Mega Man's one of the biggest names of the NES era, Pac-Man's the granddaddy of gaming, Ryu's the crossover king of fighters, Cloud is Mr, JRPG, and Bayonetta's got Platinum Games's relationship with the Big N. Each of them is huge in one way or another to Nintendo or gaming as an entirety, and I think they'd be willing to get all of them back.
 

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At this point, as long as Sakurai is directing I can't see any third parties getting the shaft, and might even potentially see Snake coming back.

Sonic's been in two games now and we the old rival, Mega Man's one of the biggest names of the NES era, Pac-Man's the granddaddy of gaming, Ryu's the crossover king of fighters, Cloud is Mr, JRPG, and Bayonetta's got Platinum Games's relationship with the Big N. Each of them is huge in one way or another to Nintendo or gaming as an entirety, and I think they'd be willing to get all of them back.
With 3rd parties it's not really Sakurai's choice. He's mentioned how difficult it is to bring in 3rd party characters in the past. They hald to renew the license every time a new game comes out. It's really up to the IP holders, I believe.
 

Capybara Gaming

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With 3rd parties it's not really Sakurai's choice. He's mentioned how difficult it is to bring in 3rd party characters in the past. They hald to renew the license every time a new game comes out. It's really up to the IP holders, I believe.
Well, yes, but I think Sakurai would at least try his hardest to keep them. All four companies seem to be on good terms with Nintendo, so I doubt any of them would say no to a return in Smash.
 

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Really didn't want it to look like I supported Roy here, he was just a character I thought of. I meant that thanks to smash people got a fixation on the child which got him in as DLC despite him being so similar to Marth. If he wasn't in smash he would have gone down the same route as so many other forgotten FE lords.
Well you're not wrong there but I feel like the love for Roy is a little superficial. Meme-based, even.
You people seem to be forgetting a couple of things.

  1. Japan loves Roy and love him as a FE unit too. You have to remember, Roy was the face of the Fire Emblem GBA revival over there, much like Lucina and Chrom are seen by us. Him being a bad unit isn't as much of an issue there either as their standards for what makes a character interesting is different.
  2. Roy got number 2 on the male Fire Emblem poll. Memes don't get that far. Notice, Dorcas the big Fire Emblem meme barely got into the top twenty and a lot of FE fans wanted to push him.
  3. Roy was chosen as one of the main units for Fire Emblem Heroes (as in he got a fancy cutscene). Ike and Corrin did not get such treatment. Roy is clearly something special.
Basically people like Roy and for legitimate reasons.

Stop saying they don't.

Cause its factually wrong.

You see, Roy entered Melee with three main traits: fire, a catchy chant and being a worse version of Marth. The perfect trinity for a bandwagon fan Favourite.

Why? Because fire makes him visually unique and flashy without requiring any complex explanation. Because being a worse version of Marth makes him an underdog without making him bad. Because, when one person starts rooting for him, a catchy chant makes it both easy and tempting to join in. And because having that chant be canon means everyone knows the same one.
He's not a unique fighter. He doesn't play especially well. He's just fancy way of handicapping one's self to gain crowd support.

Or rather, he was until Smash 4. I understand they tweaked a lot to make him play like a Marth geared towards different tactics but, at the end of the day, he's still a Marth.

If, however, we are doomed to have multiple Marth's, I totally agree that Lucina, who is practically a canon clone of Marth, not just the same moves, should be the first to go.
I'm not going to lie dude.

This is a horrifically bad post. It's an attempt to discredit Roy's popularity but your methods are so weak its... mind boggling.

Like, your post is not how competitive games work. It's not how crowds work. You ever see a Marth switch to Roy in competitive Melee? That never happens. And even if the competitive player wants to show off, Pichu is almost universally picked instead. Roy mains pick Roy because they like Roy.

You wanna make Roy seem less popular? Here. I'll do it for you.

  • Roy has almost no international presence outside of Smash and Fire Emblem Heroes
  • He's a very divisive character in the eyes of the Western Fire Emblem Fanbase
  • Him being a low tier in Melee and Smash 4 means there are comparatively less players who play him competitively
There. I did your job without morphing the competitive community into some alien creature.

I'm sorry but that post was BAD.
 
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Delzethin

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Honestly...asking whether any given veteran "should" return is the wrong thing to ask. Too often, the Smash community judges characters for how "deserving" they are, but that doesn't seem to be how Sakurai sees it at all. Such judgemental talk just leads to infighting almost like we've split into tribes based on who we support! And it has little to no effect on characters' actual chances in the long run!

So as far as veterans go...I don't think it's about who "should" return so much as whose circumstances are the best at the moment. We know the Ice Climbers were planned for the base version of Smash 4, and missed out because the 3DS was unable to run multiple sets of Nana's complicated AI without overtaxing the system's RAM and making the game lag. With the Switch's more powerful hardware, we'll see if they get a revisit...though if they also had issues working in 8-Player Smash, things could get complicated. Then there's Wolf, who was one of the least clone-like clones in Brawl and seems to have been too low priority since his entire series was on hiatus at the time. With Star Fox Zero around, he's relevant again despite the game's lukewarm reception.

Beyond those two, though...I don't feel very confident in the others.
 
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UGXwolf

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So I kinda want to post regarding a few things. One, I want to sort of provide a counter argument to the logic many seem to be using. Every time we start Smash speculation, I feel the need to reiterate that Sakurai likes to BREAK patterns, rather than adhere to them. There are a few dead giveaways that a character is safe, but in particular, I don't think that being the sole rep for a franchise makes a character safe, as aside from potentially being replaced (as Ness almost was) we haven't seen this many single-rep series in the CSS, before. Maybe they will all be in the next Smash, but maybe they won't.

Second, I want to offer a slight defense of clone characters. Clones obviously save time and resources. This is how Lucina 4moves being similar to Fox's, he pretty much bore no actual resemblance. Maybe you still don't want these characters back. I just don't see a reason not to want them, myself. (For the record, I don't think Lucina or Pittoo will be tweaked very much in the future, as they have canonical reasons for being clones.)

Finally, I want to start something of a discussion on what I consider to be "relevance tiers." Kinda like typical character tiers, these set out to rate individual characters on their relevance to Smash as a whole and provide something of a kicking-off point for discussion on what makes characters more or less "viable" for the chopping block. Here's what I think this may look like:

S: (Inseperable from the series)
:4mario: :4link: :4samus: :4pikachu: :4dk: :4falcon: :4fox: :4yoshi: :4kirby: :4luigi:

A: (difficult to argue against)
:4marth: :4bowser: :4peach: :4diddy: :4zelda: :4ganondorf: :4pit: :4myfriends: :4falco: :4metaknight: :4dedede: :4lucario: :4olimar: :4sonic: :4wario:

B: (still very safe)
:4sheik: :4zss: :4ness: :4villager: :4gaw: :4rob: :4tlink: :4charizard: :rosalina: :4jigglypuff: :4littlemac: :4pacman: :4mewtwo: :4lucas: :4miibrawl: :4miigun: :4miisword:

C: (shakey ground)
:4shulk: :4robinm: :4duckhunt: :popo: :4bowserjr: :4palutena: :4drmario: :4megaman: :4greninja: :wolf:

D: (needs to be justified)
:4wiifit: :4corrin: :4darkpit: :4feroy: :4ryu: :4cloud: :4bayonetta: :snake: :squirtle: :ivysaur:

E: (take it or leave it)
:4lucina: :pichumelee: :younglinkmelee:

This is, of course, all my opinion. In the top two tiers, it's assumed the characters are all on a similar level to others in their tier. The rest are actually ordered, somewhat, left to right, in terms of who I think is hardest to easiest to cut. Naturally, DLC 3rd parties are harder to justify than on-disc ones and 3rd parties in general are harder to justify than 1st or 2nd parties. Lucina in particular is where she is because I feel like she could be made a costume of Marth and the game would barely lose anything, as a whole. Of course, given how little time and resources she requires, compared to other fighters, she's just as easy to bring back as she is to cut out. I'll gladly answer questions about my opinions, but I also wanna see YOUR opinions.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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All that I know is that 8-Player Smash could be a brick wall for the Ice Climbers, since having four sets of them is like an 8-player bout, but with four of them always being CPU-controlled. I'd hate to think about how big the performance issues could be if as many as 16 individual Ice Climbers are on-screen. Combine that with the presence of Poke Ball Pokemon and Assist Trophies, and you're just adding to the lag.
 
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Luminario

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All that I know is that 8-Player Smash could be a brick wall for the Ice Climbers, since having four sets of them is like an 8-player bout, but with four of them always being CPU-controlled. I'd hate to think about how big the performance issues could be if as many as 16 individual Ice Climbers are on-screen. Combine that with the presence of Poke Ball Pokemon and Assist Trophies, and you're just adding to the lag.
That's a good point, is the Switch powerful enough to run 16 ICs, multiple pokemon, items, explosions, and a Final Smash?
The ICs could potentially be locked to 4 player smash in that case, so they don't need to be outright removed again.
 

Zerp

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All that I know is that 8-Player Smash could be a brick wall for the Ice Climbers, since having four sets of them is like an 8-player bout, but with four of them always being CPU-controlled. I'd hate to think about how big the performance issues could be if as many as 16 individual Ice Climbers are on-screen. Combine that with the presence of Poke Ball Pokemon and Assist Trophies, and you're just adding to the lag.
Eh, 8 Bayonettas performing bullet arts already causes my Wii-U to severely lag, I agree they're likely to be laggy in that mode but I don't think Nintendo cares enough about it to actually stop the Ice Climbers.
 
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Wolfie557

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Yeah Sheik is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things but she's popular, unique and a recurring vet so I don't see her going anywhere. Failing getting her own moveset I'd like to see Impa take Sheik's and simply replace her, but that's not happening either.

And Roy? I dunno, he's somewhere in the middle. He was a popular Melee character whose cut only made him more popular but obviously the series can move on without him, especially in the face of all them other FE characters and the new ones that will exist by the time Smash 5 proper starts culling characters for the roster. I like him but I'd rather see him cut than deal with an oversaturation of FE still. Though as pretty much a direct clone, with another character from the same game on the roster, my first choice for the axe is Lucina. From that series.
Impa has enough to pull from that she should be her own character and I would be disapointed if it was any other way. Namely from Skyrward Sword, BotW and despite very unlikely to use stuff directly from Hyrule Warriors imo, it can still serve as a pretty big inspiration too.
Well you're not wrong there but I feel like the love for Roy is a little superficial. Meme-based, even.
You see, Roy entered Melee with three main traits: fire, a catchy chant and being a worse version of Marth. The perfect trinity for a bandwagon fan Favourite.

Why? Because fire makes him visually unique and flashy without requiring any complex explanation. Because being a worse version of Marth makes him an underdog without making him bad. Because, when one person starts rooting for him, a catchy chant makes it both easy and tempting to join in. And because having that chant be canon means everyone knows the same one.
He's not a unique fighter. He doesn't play especially well. He's just fancy way of handicapping one's self to gain crowd support.

Or rather, he was until Smash 4. I understand they tweaked a lot to make him play like a Marth geared towards different tactics but, at the end of the day, he's still a Marth.

If, however, we are doomed to have multiple Marth's, I totally agree that Lucina, who is practically a canon clone of Marth, not just the same moves, should be the first to go.
whats to stop Lucina being more different than Roy next game? nothing really.
I say keep both but if have to cut one, go with Roy because Lucina is much more signifcant to the FE franchise and is far more popular than Roy outside of Smash.

Lucina should have her Great Lord outfit as a costume.
LoZ should simply have more
Cannot agree more.
 

Diddy Kong

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Yo I like Roy actually! :4feroy:

I was more than excited to see him return, with a Luigified move set much like I expected it should look and feel like.

And as a Fire Emblem unit he's by far not the worst! He actually got the BEST growth rates out of all characters, besides Karel and Fa. And the Sword of Seals is amazing! He likely will be able to catch up quickly with the rest, might only need a Energy Ring sometimes to compensate Strenght. But I myself never had a bad time with Roy as a unit.

It's approximately 5 chapters at most that he's max level and not favorable to use , but that gives you time to build up other units who need it more. After he gets Sword of Seals and reaches level.. 6 to 8, he should be your best unit period. He might not exactly shine right away after promotion but the chapter vs Zephiel offers a LOT of experience for him to catch up. He really gets to shine at the chapters afterwards. Honestly, FE6 was a great game, and Roy gets hated on for no good reason.

I say he's overall better than both Lyn and Eirika. And he's better than Eliwood in his route. Lyn without her route is a very weak Lord honestly if you look at it objectively. She needs that Mani Katti more than Roy needs his Sword of Seals. He can also kick ass with a Rapier, Silver Sword (against non boss and non dragons) and of coarse Durandel. He's not exactly all around usable as Hector and Ephraim, but I due to Ephraim having bad stat caps (especially for his potential), I don't think he's all that much better than End Game Roy. Hector starts of quite weak in his own mode and becomes a liability for his team down the road too... So why the double standard with Roy? You will train up Hector too immediately after promotion, same you should do with Roy.

Comparing with FE7 Lords is harder though because of all the road you can play. I'd still say Roy is overall better than Lyn, is slightly better than Eliwood due to Sword of Seals > Durandal (unless Eliwood goes out of his way to S Rank Lances - which can only be done in Hector mode realistically). And he loses to Hector because Hector is beast, but in his own mode he suffers similarly to Roy and doesn't get pooped on.

Roy's quite comparable to a weaker FE9 Ike I think. Weaker cause of infinite Ragnell and Aether, but lets not forget that the Radiant Hero started out with similar bases to Roy, and even also had a shaky Strenght growth for his game. Roy is also definitely better than FE11 Marth, how come he gets away with that horrible performance unnoticed? FE12 Marth is beast cause of the Shield of Seals however... Dude doesn't even need a promotion or extra 10 levels...

FE6 is challenging because you have shakable stat growths. A unit like Lilinia can be both amazing or terrible, depending on her shaky Speed growth. I've had a Strenght and Speed cursed Dieck once... the game offers little unit usability. You definitely have an elite squad of units, and Roy is part of that squad. You'll have to look at FE6 objectively before you make a judgement of Roy as a unit.

As if his character, he's also heavily underrated. I say he's a pretty damn brave guy, he's willing to stand up to an entire army that has conquered about 1/3th of the continent and started invading his country too. His country's army is decimated and it's strongest warrior, general and leader dies in front of Roy saying ****ing dragons are responsible for all. He always faced incredible odds. And as his personality concerned, he's extremely humane. Only times I ever found him naive is in his interactions with Cath. I think the story actually gives him a lot of character development if you look at it the right way. He first stands up just for his country and loved ones ( Roy x Lilina is canon don't debate me on this) then for humanity, then for equality between man and dragon. He's extremely devoted to the truth and ideals. So yes, he's one of my favorite Lords in the series actually. Always was, but he's grown on me a lot after the years.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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That's a good point, is the Switch powerful enough to run 16 ICs, multiple pokemon, items, explosions, and a Final Smash?
The ICs could potentially be locked to 4 player smash in that case, so they don't need to be outright removed again.
Either that, or reduce model quality. Smash Wii U has demonstrated this with a good number of characters.
 

Guybrush20X6

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Quick run down of shoulds vs possibilities

:icsmelee::popo: They should but we still have no idea of the technical limitations we're up against. (Ironic that as tech advances they get progressively more impossible)

:pichumelee: Unless it got a major rework to where it's rewards match it's risks I don't see much gameplay reasons but it could be done easily.
:younglinkmelee: I'd say not as his position was taken but I thought Roy's position was taken too so who knows.

:squirtle: Despite not being Charizard levels it's still an iconic Pokemon to it is possible it could make a comeback
:ivysaur: I want Ivy back so much but honestly Ivy was there to fill a slot. Maybe it could come back as Bulbasaur?
:pt: I think Pokemon Trainer should be reworked and brought back but who would replace Charizard?
:wolf: Struggling to find reasons why not. Couldn't get the new voice actor to do lines?
:snake: Konami...
 

LunchmanJ

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Ice Climbers, Wolf, and Snake should return for sure. Pokemon Trainer could be reworked as Red, but nobody wants that so :( I don't know who should be cut though. Probably Dark Pit (clone, nobody wanted him), Dr. Mario (clone, nobody wanted him), a Fire Emblem character (Robin or Lucina or Corrin depending on who people want), etc. Really, there should just be a poll on who people want cut and go from there.
 

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I'd be fine with any veterans returning, especially Snake and Ivysaur.

As for current characters getting canned, I think it'd be due to circumstances such as time constraints rather than how "deserving" they are. Will an FE character be cut next game? Maybe. Will it be because muh reps? Probably not. Of course, some characters are bigger priority than others, but that isn't necessarily because they deserve it more.

Let's take Mewtwo for instance. One of the most popular and recognizable Pokemon ever. Sounds like a shoe-in, right? Nope. Despite his popularity and massive fan demand, he has generally been low priority in every Smash game, being considered but not making it for Smash 64, finally making it to Melee only to be cut in Brawl due to time constraints, and making it in only as DLC in Smash 4 after the initial roster was finished.

And no, I don't want anyone getting cut either, but that is very unlikely.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I'd be fine with any veterans returning, especially Snake and Ivysaur.

As for current characters getting canned, I think it'd be due to circumstances such as time constraints rather than how "deserving" they are. Will an FE character be cut next game? Maybe. Will it be because muh reps? Probably not. Of course, some characters are bigger priority than others, but that isn't necessarily because they deserve it more.

Let's take Mewtwo for instance. One of the most popular and recognizable Pokemon ever. Sounds like a shoe-in, right? Nope. Despite his popularity and massive fan demand, he has generally been low priority in every Smash game, being considered but not making it for Smash 64, finally making it to Melee only to be cut in Brawl due to time constraints, and making it in only as DLC in Smash 4 after the initial roster was finished.

And no, I don't want anyone getting cut either, but that is very unlikely.
This is a high quality post.

Sums up my thoughts on veterans completely.
 

Blackwolf666

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Those that didn't make the cut in sm4sh that I want to see return: :squirtle::ivysaur::snake::wolf:
Those in sm4sh that I think may not return but I want them on switch: :4corrinf::4robinf::4bowserjr::4lucina:(with her own move-set)
Those I wouldn't lose any sleep over if they were cut: :4ryu::4shulk::4cloud::4bayonetta2::4darkpit::4drmario:
 

Wolfie557

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Those that didn't make the cut in sm4sh that I want to see return: :squirtle::ivysaur::snake::wolf:
Those in sm4sh that I think may not return but I want them on switch: :4corrinf::4robinf::4bowserjr::4lucina:(with her own move-set)
Those I wouldn't lose any sleep over if they were cut: :4ryu::4shulk::4cloud::4bayonetta2::4darkpit::4drmario:
You have a heart of stone boi.
 

Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4

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Swamp Sensei Swamp Sensei regarding that Roy post, as a former FE hater, I can see why people think that he stinks. Think about how precious roster spots are. How many times did people roll their eyes at Dark Pit or Lucina saying "that could have been Inkling, or Snake, or Wolf." Now imagine that you have never played Pokemon. You have never even heard about Pokemon before smash. Then you look at Smash 4 saying "why are there so many damn Japanese Yo-Kai or whatever???" I believe, since many American/European smashers have never played FE before, the characters seem dumb. And when a FE character is cloned, it seems doubly dumb. Now, in no way am I saying that Roy doesn't deserve a spot. But I wonder about Lucina sometimes. She is just Marth without the tipper, generally. I don't see why she can't be an alt, like the koopalings.
 

Megadoomer

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Personally, I prefer playing as Lucina over playing as Marth. It seems to me that the tippers are incredibly specific, and I like being able to use that moveset without having to worry about the overly precise spacing that seems to be required when playing as Marth.
 

FunAtParties

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Those that didn't make the cut in sm4sh that I want to see return: :squirtle::ivysaur::snake::wolf:
Those in sm4sh that I think may not return but I want them on switch: :4corrinf::4robinf::4bowserjr::4lucina:(with her own move-set)
Those I wouldn't lose any sleep over if they were cut: :4ryu::4shulk::4cloud::4bayonetta2::4darkpit::4drmario:
Good to see I'm not the only Ryu hater left lol
 
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How many times did people roll their eyes at Dark Pit or Lucina saying "that could have been Inkling, or Snake, or Wolf."
The problem is that this is straight up wrong.


Clones like Lucinea and Dark Pit are free content. They literally could not add any more characters in the time it took to make all of the clones.


She is just Marth without the tipper, generally. I don't see why she can't be an alt, like the koopalings.
Since clones dont take much time, that means if she stayed as an alt, it would just mean less content for the player with no benefits. Staying an alt is a lose lose situation.
 
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Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4

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The problem is that this is straight up wrong.


Clones like Lucinea and Dark Pit are free content. They literally could not add any more characters in the time it took to make all of the clones.



Since clones dont take much time, that means if she stayed as an alt, it would just mean less content for the player with no benefits. Staying an alt is a lose lose situation.
A. Well, this confuses me since Popo and Nana were exactly the same and still took up 2 slots in Brawl. (see Relax Alax videos) this would mean that they would have to design each individually.

B. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. It wouldn't kill them though, I think, to make her a semi-clone and add her as DLC a la Lucas.
 
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A. Well, this confuses me since Popo and Nana were exactly the same and still took up 2 slots in Brawl. (see Relax Alax videos) this would mean that they would have to design each individually.
Data slots and layman's term for slots are two different things. Giga Mac and Giga Bowser have differnt data for their models and particle effects than regular for instance but didnt take up enough dev time to be called a "slot"

And we straight up have Sakurai saying how the clones came to be. Alts that got upgraded and only had a quick bit of balance done, so they weren't "designed individually." The amount of dev time for all 3 clones is way less than even one regular character, and are, again, free characters that litearlly could not have taken the spaces of inklings, snake, and wolf.
 

Mrrgle

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:younglinkmelee: = No thanks, unless he gets a entirely new moveset.
:pichumelee: = I don't see exactly why not, but he'll need some tweaks/new moves.
:wolf: = FOR THE LOVE OF GOD YES
:popo: = ^^^
:snake: = Yea, but... Y'know, Konami.
:squirtle: = He was cool.
:ivysaur: = PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
 

Luminario

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Your guess is as good as mine
Since this thread is also apparently for veteran moveset changes too, I'd like to put forward a few ideas about it, some I've mentioned on here before but others pretty new.
:4zelda:
Now that she's free of Sheik, she should really embrace the defensive mage archetype she's themed around.
Her Ftilt and Utilt could create a slow moving crescent projectile in front and above her respectively (think Poison's projectile from Street Fighter). Give Ftilt less kill power and give both moves the same lag with the projectile reaching about Rosalina's Utilt range (but forwards for Ftilt) to balance them out.
Her Usmash could have a fiery explosion at the end of the multihit, similar to Uair. This is more of an aesthetic thing tbh but does add vertical range on the final hit.
Her Fair and Bair both being Lightning Kick, while iconic to Zelda, really hold her back. I'd say that Fair should be replaced by what Ftilt is now but in the air (without the projectile I mentioned earlier) but keep Bair the traditional Lightning Kick, so she has a quick aerial for damage and a kill aerial for variety.
Din's Fire is a good idea, but they went in the wrong direction by giving it pure kill power then balancing off of that when it really should be for tacking on damage and pestering from afar. It should keep the huge blind spot in front of Zelda but should activate much quicker and move much faster, as it can be used to punish people attempting to space from a certain distance. Remove the god awful idea of making her freefall after using it in the air too.
Phantom Slash should be able to be cancelled, that's all.
:4palutena:
While her base moveset really isn't that bad by itself (not counting the horrible lag issues) I'd say Ftilt and dash attack should be switched, so that Ftilt could be a shield parry attack with the invincibility frames and the dash attack could be the multihit staff spin.
Instead of being the character with unique custom moves, Palutena could be the character with the first stance special. Up B and Side B can still be Warp and Reflect, Down B could be replaced with Celestial Firework, and B could be the completely new special Goddess Stance, which gives her access to her specials that were previously locked behind customs. Pressing B then pressing up lets her do Jump Glide, side lets her do Super Speed, Down lets her use Lightweight, and pressing B a second time lets her use Autoreticle. These moves could then be balanced accordingly but still giving her many more options in fights.
:4ganondorf:
I'm not as familiar with Ganny as I am with the past 2 characters, but a small change I would like to see is simply giving him a hover for a run. It would still be a slow as his regular run right now, but would certainly suit his personality more to simply hover forwards with his arms crossed.
Dead Man's Volley is another thing I'd like to see replace Warlock Punch(I know it was mentioned quite a bit in the general discussion but I'm bringing it up here cause I like it), where he shoots a slow moving ball forwards that stuns but can be reflected by hitting it hard enough just like Dedede's Gordos. The ball moves slow enough for Ganondorf to be running closely behind it which can lead to mixups: the opponent can hit it back but Ganny follows up with a dash attack to hit it back again, they can shield it but get grabbed, Ganny can dodge it himself then punish accordingly, Side B and Down B could even be given the property to phase through the ball completely allowing even more mixups.
:4jigglypuff:
Due to who Jiggs is and why she's added, I don't ever expect that many changes, but all her specials have at least some use except for Rollout. One attack they could easily change that to is Dazzling Gleam, where it's a chargeable defensive attack where after it's fully charged, pressing B again will create a very large hitbox around Jiggs, blasting the opponent away.
:4villagerf:
No umbrella twirl for Utilt? Disrespectful.

Soooo, thoughts?
 

Oddball

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I'd rather have (to pick a random number) 65 characters with five of them being clones than to just have 60 characters.

With that said, I'd like it if they thought outside the franchise a bit more when it comes to clones. Having Ganondorf and Captain Falcon is a lot more appealing tome than Pit and Dark Pit or Fire Emblem Guy and another Fire Emlbelm guy. (Although i would not turn down a Justin Bailey Samus Aran clone.)

As for the characters that have been cut, I don't think of Young Link as having been cut as much as he was updated. You want to bring him back, give him new moves. Ice Climbers would be my number one choice for a return, although I'd like Snake's return as well.

Wolf I just don't care about. One way or another. If he's there, good, if he's not, I won't complain.

Pichu I'd rather not see come back. He was pretty worthless.

On the chance that Snake CAN'T come back because of Konami, I wouldn't mind them giving his moves to an Advance Wars character instead. Sami would be my pick.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Good to see I'm not the only Ryu hater left lol
Still don't understand why people hate characters so much they'll identify themselves as a hater.

wouldn't mind them giving his moves to an Advance Wars character instead. Sami would be my pick.
Snake's moveset wouldn't work well on any AW character.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Why do you care so much
I've been through this song and dance many times.

I want to cut down on behavior like that. You would not believe how many fanbases get ruined by that stuff.

If you don't like a character thats fine, but identifying yourself as a hater means its very personal and THAT leads to huge problems.
 

FunAtParties

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I've been through this song and dance many times.

I want to cut down on behavior like that. You would not believe how many fanbases get ruined by that stuff.

If you don't like a character thats fine, but identifying yourself as a hater means its very personal and THAT leads to huge problems.
Eh I'm editing my first response, please reread if you already read the first one.

I get we're you're coming from, you don't want this place tearing itself apart with comments like that, that really don't do anything but piss people off. I get it.

The thing for me is, I think having some contrariety is part of having a healthy community. This place becomes an echo chamber a good part of the time, and opposing opinions tend to be very discouraged around here.

It becomes fairly annoying to see people being berated whether aggressively or passive-aggressively for trying to express a different opinion. In only a couple years, I've seen quite a few people last like 2 weeks here, because no one gives them any support for thinking differently.

I feel like sharing my opinion with the other dude is fine. I get the hater thing was dumb, but it was just a quicker way to sum up that I agree that Ryu shouldn't be in Smash, so if things got out of hand right away again, the guy would know they weren't completely alone in their opinion. I've been through the rounds when discussing Ryu (pretty sure you took part in some of those discussions), so please excuse the vagueness in the original comment, and the initial hostility.



Why bother posting if you dont want people to respond to it?
For the other guy who I responded to?

Are we gonna do this thing again where you, and 5 others come at me all at the same time for something that shouldn't cause this kind of reaction again, because I'm really not in the mood to get into it over a comment I made two-weeks ago.
 
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Guybrush20X6

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I'm thinking, what veterans are due a moveset shake-up. Besides Lucina and Dark Pit who need some Luigification that is.

I'm talking along the lines of how Yoshi and Bowser got their moveset changed up going from Brawl to 4.

One idea I had for Wario was to change his down air to a butt slam, while making his neutral have his old down air's animation.

Though speaking of Bowser, one thing I'd like would be for Giga Bowser to go back to being a final boss. Doesn't mean that Bowser has to lose his old final Smash, just have a version that's permanent but can be knocked back or has a health meter..
 

Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4

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I'm thinking, what veterans are due a moveset shake-up. Besides Lucina and Dark Pit who need some Luigification that is.

I'm talking along the lines of how Yoshi and Bowser got their moveset changed up going from Brawl to 4.
.
Characters' animations that I think need changing:
Pretty much entire moveset: (:4dk:/:4wario2:) (not canon like, AT ALL)(:4darkpit:/:4lucina:) (too similar to source material)
half the moves::4sonic: (7 moves in a ball)
1 or 2 moves::4metaknight: (dair):4mewtwo:(ftilt)
 
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