Veteran Revamps

[Dee Dude]

Decided to make this separate since the main thread is flooded with Verg/SE/Geno/whatever as usual again.

Out of all the veterans, which one would you completely revamp?

Not minor retooling, buffs, nerfs or anything, a flat-out reboot on their moveset with absolutely no similarities to their past attacks, specials etc almost turning them into a brand new character.

Main alienation be darned.

And since I know a majority is going to say the most obvious answer. You can’t say

For me, it’s definitely .
Get rid of the dumb clown car and have him on his feet with his Paintbrush giving him a new Sunshine inspired moveset. His Clown Car can be his Final Smash instead.

The Koopaling alts will be gone but not forgotten unless they’re moved to the Clown Car moveset seperately. (Who would be the default is another question.)

 

[Nebunera]

Without a doubt.

The reason why she is overpowered is because she makes you wonder what game you are playing. Like am I playing Smash Bros or Marvel vs Capcom?

THIS is an example of character using elements from their game done right.

 

[Luigifan18]

For me, it’s definitely .
Get rid of the dumb clown car and have him on his feet with his Paintbrush giving him a new Sunshine inspired moveset. RIP: Koopaling alts.

That is exactly how I had envisioned Bowser Jr. being in Smash back in the Brawl days.

 

[Orlando BCN]

Remove Luma from Rosalina. Genius.

 

[Fell God]

The Koopaling alts will be gone but not forgotten unless they’re moved to the Clown Car moveset seperately. (Who would be the default is another question.)

Koopa Kid from Mario Party hehe

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

I would revamp and personally. They have so much more potential but were turned into clones of and instead. Come to think of it, I would work on revamping all the echo fighters and semiclones to be honest. Either that, or outright remove them.

 

[Squirtle/Mario guy]

Remove Luma from Rosalina. Genius.

Rosalina and Luma has a unique bond that they cannot separate, removing Luma would defeat the reason why Sakurai added them in, in my opinion, kinda like people requesting for 1 ice climber when the reason Icies were in becuase of that bond.

For me, it’s definitely .
Get rid of the dumb clown car and have him on his feet with his Paintbrush giving him a new Sunshine inspired moveset. His Clown Car can be his Final Smash instead.

The Koopaling alts will be gone but not forgotten unless they’re moved to the Clown Car moveset seperately. (Who would be the default is another question.)[/QUOTE] Well they can still be alts since Alph i think is a different height but it wouldn't feel like your playing as the Koopalings but then better than being a coward, he'd still have his stuff like the mini koop robo thing but not kart or cannonball but i'm comfertable with the one we got for now

Who'd i'd change, well i'd say
, that kid is a coward and needs to fight
, same reason as Duke of Dork
, same reason as Duke of Dork
, same reason as Duke of Dork
, duh, she's samus echo
, GET THAT BOY SOME MASK
, GET THAT GUY SOME MEDICAL STUFF
, AND GET THIS SAME GUY BABY LUMA, wait wait wait, he's the same guy as the idiot who shoves pills into people ? ummm yeah he defs needs Baby Luma and also FLUDD needs more personality but idk how
AND MAKE HIM INSTAKILL EVERYONE (jk)

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Remove Luma from Rosalina. Genius.

I second that.

I'd revamp parts of Kirby and Dedede's movesets to reflect their games even more. Link would have TP link as an echo with the normal moveset, BotW Link would use the sheikah slate and champs' abilities. Dk would use some of the items in his game more. Luigi would have the Poltergeist in his moveset.
Other veterans i would revamp include:

 

[Luigifan18]

How is this thread a thing and Necro'lic hasn't joined in?

 

[Vanguard227]

- Ditch the clown car and give him his paintbrush from Super Mario Sunshine
- Have her move set fully revolve around the Mario sports spinoffs.
- Alter his move set further with more runes and champion abilities like Urbosa's fury and Revali's gale
- Give him the Majora's Mask make over. Give him the gilded sword and mirror shield. Remove his boomerang and replace it with the ability to change into Deku, Goron or Zora Link--completely changing his moveset once he's transformed.
- Give him actual guns (Or at least his tranq. gun) and a knife for CQC
- Implement his poltergust into his actual moveset. Include the different Poltergust abilities from all 3 Luigi's Mansion games.
- Have her use her harp/Lyre to play songs that can cause different effects/attacks, and give her that knife she has in that one piece of Ocarina of Time artwork.
- Give her her moves from Prime 2 and 3
/ - Make them completely unique from /
- Have him use his staff as his main weapon instead of the silver bow

 

[Luigifan18]

Holy crap, I thought I was one of the few people who liked Bowser Jr.'s paintbrush!!! ... ... ...

 

[Crystanium]

Dash attack should be a roll, not a trip and fall. Wario rolled in Wario Land. He should also be able to ground pound, but make it function like Greninja's d-air, since Wario bounces after performing a ground pound. Give Wario his ramming attack for his foward special. Have Wario shoot yellow fireballs, rather than bite. His fireballs can work like they did in Super Mario Land 2: Six Golden Coins. I'm not sure what could replacehis up special or Waft. When was Wario associated with flatus and garlic?


Perhaps u-air could function like Screw Attack. This was my brother's idea. Screw Attack could be replaced with Shinespark, allowing Samus to recover in any 8 directions. It'd be a kill move.

 

[Necro'lic]

How is this thread a thing and Necro'lic hasn't joined in?

Well I guess I'm here now. Shameless plug time, though at least this time it's super appropriate to the thread. These are the veterans I've made huge posts on for reworks. Some FAR more than others. I'll just say what the moves I would change are, but if you want more specifics, just skim through them. Or don't. I ain't in charge of your life. XD

Redesign/Rebalance threads

Samus

New moves: Jab 3, FSmash, USmash, DSmash, Neutral-B (Power Beam), Down-B (Morph Ball), BThrow, UThrow

Heavily reworked: DTilt, Side-B (Missile)

Jigglypuff

New moves: USmash, Up-B (Gyro Ball), Pummel

Heavily reworked: Neutral-B (Sing)

New trait: Buoyancy (Can now concurrently use Jigglypuff's double jumps while within an aerial move's animation)

Bowser

New moves: Side-B (Koopa Klench), BThrow

Heavily reworked: DTilt

Sheik

New moves: Jab 3, Jab 4, Jab 5, Jab 6, Down-B (Minuet of the Forest)

Heavily reworked: FSmash, Neutral-B (Needle Storm), Side-B (Bouncing Fish)

Zelda

New moves: Jab 1, Jab 2, BAir

Heavily reworked: Side-B (Din's Fire)

Pichu

New moves: UTilt, DTilt, Dash Attack, DSmash, FAir, BAir, DAir, Neutral-B (Charge Beam), Side-B (Thunder Wave), Up-B (Volt Switch), Down-B (Wish), FThrow, UThrow

Heavily reworked: NAir

Roy

New moves: Dash Attack, DSmash, BAir, UAir, Side-B (Piercing Rapier), Down-B (Unbound Riposte), FThrow

Heavily reworked: USmash

New trait: Unbound Fury (After doing any kind of dodge, the Binding Blade will glow with fiery power for 2 seconds, giving it 50% more hitstun for that time. If Roy is hit during this, the buff will immediately end and Roy will take 20% more hitstun from that hit)

King Dedede

New moves: DSmash 2, DAir, Down-B (Jet Missiles), UThrow

Heavily reworked: FSmash, FAir, Up-B (Super Dedede Jump)

Olimar

New moves: Jab 3, NAir, Side-B (Pikmin March)

Heavily reworked: Dash Attack, Shield-B (Pikmin Pluck), Neutral-B (Pikmin Throw), Down-B (Pikmin Order)

------------------------------------------------

That's just for what I've done so far. Here are some general ideas of what I've been thinking about doing in my next posts on this series:

Unlike a lot of the people here, I would keep the Klown Kart. The biggest change I would give it is the ability to float similar to Peach BUT also the ability to float upwards. It would work off of a fuel system like R.O.B's Up-B. So this not only makes Bowser Jr's mobility and recovery much better, and not only does it allow for his aerial moves to be used as much more generalized neutral options, but aesthetically it also allows for a motif of a boss battle that pelts you from literally any direction with projectiles that can counter him. Also, since you can easily stay at the top of the stage and use some keepaway tactics, the damage reduction from the clown cart works FAR more often, and it protects the top of Bowser Jr that gets damage amplification.

The biggest change for DK is replacing one of his special moves with the ability to spawn a barrel. There's nothing special about it other than just being a barrel, but DK has always had the increased movement and ability to jump when holding heavy things, so you could work this to his advantage without having to turn on items lol. Maybe a special anti-zoner tactic I would add is allowing him to put the barrel in front of him to block projectiles of have the barrel eat them instead. And of course you can roll the barrel. You could feel like you're in the arcade Donkey Kong game!

I have a way of decloning characters completely, which is why Pichu has so many new moves in my post about rebalancing him. I think the big change to Dr. Mario is a virus stacking system, and when three viruses are stacked in a row, the doctor gets some buffs. You get a virus by having a move actually hit the opponent. Fever you get from any side moves, Chill from up moves, and Weird from down moves. Neutral moves like NAir would give you none, barring Megavitamins which would give whatever was the last virus in line. Theoretically it would force players to be more creative with their combos, but in return I would probably have Dr. Mario be able to do varied combos better.

This is only a few, but you get the gist.

 

[Squirtle/Mario guy]

My recreation of Bowser Jr with percentage and description because i don't do competive smash and inspired by Inklings and his old moves

Recreation of Bowser Jr (His paint works similarly to Inkling’s)

Entrance : Landed as Shadow Mario and reveals himself to be Shadow Mario with the Bib for Shadow Mario before being replaced by the one we know

Neutral Attack : Slashes his Paintbrush (3%)
Edge Attack : Backflip with his Paintbrush on stage (5%)

Neutral Special : Flicks his paintbrush with paint flicked on opponent (7%)
Side Special : Like the Inkling roller brushes his paintbrush on the ground. Has the same effect of the Inkling’s roller (Same percentage of Inkling’s roller)
Up Special : Lands on a Clown Car and it blasts him out before exploding (5% contact, 13% explosion)
Down Special : Like Mechakoopa but he lobs it like the animation in Mario Kart when lobbing a Ba-bomb and it will move like it is in his old moveset (2% contact, 7% explosion)

Dash Attack : Slashes his paintbrush diagonally (6%)
Grab : A Piranhabon appears from a paint puddle, grabs opponent and hands to Bowser Jr (0%)
Pummel : Draws diagonally on opponent (2%)
Tether : Piranhabon from the brush and latches onto the ledge (0%)

Forward Tilt : Thrusts his paintbrush forward (9%)
Up Tilt : Thrusts his paintbrush upwards (7%)
Down Tilt : Uses his paintbrush like a tongue and brushes it three times like his old down tilt (1.5% hits 1-2, 5% hit 3)

Forward Smash : Uses his paintbrush like a drill but for three seconds (7% each second)
Up Smash : Like his old up smash but does a handstand and spins around (6%)
Down Smash : Like his old Down Smash but one side is his paintbrush and the other is Spawny holding a boxing glove thing from his clown car (8%)

Neutral Aerial : Like his old Netural Air but with his paintbrush (6% clean, 5% mid, 3% late)
Back Aerial : Thrusts his paintbrush backwards (14% clean, 8% mid, 5% late)
Up Aerial : Bowser Jr throws his paintbrush upwards and jumps to grab it (4% if hit by brush, 7% if hit but Bowser Jr)
Forward Aerial : Thrusts his paintbrush forward (14% clean, 8% mid, 5% late)
Down Aerial : Flicks the paintbrush downwards with paint being flicked at opponent (5%)

Forward Throw : Takes a sentry slams opponent on it and kicks it forward (14%)
Backwards throw : Takes a sentry slams opponent on it and kicks it backward (14%)
Up throw : Throws opponent into a cauldron and mixes it with paintbrush for 5 seconds (3% every second)
Down throw : Takes his cow hammer from Mario and smashes it on opponent (16%)

Final Smash : Shadow Mario Paint *Unlike the other one after he does the paint he will shoot paint cannonball from his clown car and will also damage players if they touch it (3% paint, 5% explosion, 6% hit by Paint ball)

Up Taunt : Does the bo-yah animation from Inklings but he does’t say bo-yah and only does it one time
Side Taunt : Jumps in his Clown Car and does the hopping animation when idle in Smash 4
Down Taunt : Spawny comes and is about to shoot a laser when Bowser Jr grabs him and he shoots a second long laser

Victory 1: Twirls paint around him as Shadow Mario before transforming back to Bowser Jr
Victory 2 : Cheering on his victory without noticing a mob of Pintas running at him angrily
Victory 3 : Hops on his clown car and swings his paintbrush above him

 

[Deleted member]

Samus

New moves: Jab 3, FSmash, USmash, DSmash, Neutral-B (Power Beam), Down-B (Morph Ball), BThrow, UThrow

Heavily reworked: DTilt, Side-B (Missile)

This.

 

[Guynamednelson]

inspired by Inklings

There's a non-competitive reason to keep Jr. in the Clown Car: It makes him more unique.

 

[Polar Bair]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned :ultKirby: yet. Kirby has been in an awkward place since Melee, for a bunch of reasons.
1. Copy abilities are limited, and can be anywhere from useless (, ) to matchup-dictating (, )
2. Missing iconic moves like his slide, which leaves his moveset feeling redundant.
3. Lack of both range and speed keep Kirby from feeling as strong or good to play as he could be.

The only moves I'd keep from his current moveset are jabs, throws (at least up and back), and potentially Inhale. Let me elaborate on that: Since Smash Kirby uses a bunch of abilities for his moves AND can copy with Inhale, this gave me an idea for an Inhale/copy-free Kirby. His moveset would reference a lot more abilities from Ice to Fire, and then some.

Alternatively, Kirby's copy ability could be upgraded to replace all 4 specials with the opponent's. This wouldn't necessitate as much of a normal move overhaul so I'll just focus on the copyless idea. This is all a what-if, anyhow. I'll elaborate on it later but I always saw something like the custom move Ice Breath, Spark as a down smash, and more.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

There's already a thread on it, but it was originally designed to be for specific veterans each week, so I'll quote an idea I had.

I like your idea for , but a revamp in design I feel deserves a revamp in move set. I had a different one to make him feel more true to Breath of the Wild. This idea can also further declone him from the other two Links. Moves are being compared to and changed from his move set in Ultimate.

Spoiler: Moves

Jab - Link does a four hit move with animations similar to his attack with a one handed weapon while not moving. Each hit connects into the next.

Dash Attack - Link does a quick slash similar to the first hit of his attack with a one handed weapon while dashing. The move in Smash Ultimate would only be the first hit in the animation shown.

Up Smash - When at 0%, the move fires the same beam as Forward Smash but in an upwards direction.

Down Smash - It is now Spin Attack which was his former Up Special. This move can now only be used on the ground, but it can be charged for longer because it's now a Smash Attack. Still comes out just as fast, but leaves him vulnerable for a bit longer time.

Shield - Visually, it is now Daruk's Protection. Functionally, it is now just like Yoshi's egg shield. It cracks as it takes damage or is continuously used, and can even break putting Link into a Shield Break animation.

Up Special - Link now uses Revail's Gale instead of using Spin Attack. This immediately has Link pull out his Paraglider and has Revail place gusts of wind at his feet shooting him upwards quickly.

Champion Powers
Above his damage gauge, Link gets four gauges in a line each representing his four champion powers. When Link uses the champion powers, the champions will appear like how they did in the game.

Revail's Gale - This gauge represents how much charge Revail's Gale has. Link spawns with Revail's Gale fully charged and it builds up on its own pretty quickly, but it is half depleted when Link uses the move. How high Revail's Gale take Link is based on how charged it is when he uses it.

Daruk's Protection - This gague represents how much health his shield has. It fills up as his shield regenerates and depletes when his shield takes damage. The gauge is fitting because Daruk's Protection is Link's new shield. Performing a perfect shield shows Daruk appearing in front of Link as if he himself is blocking the attack, but it's only for looks as a Perfect Shield is still just a Perfect Shield.

Urbosa's Fury - This gauge represents how much charge Urbosa's Fury has. Much like Limit Gauge, Urbosa's Fury builds up as Link gives or receives damage. The gauge resets completely when the move is used. If Link presses the B Button while charging a Smash Attack and while the gauge is full, a lightning aura appears portraying the area which Urbosa's Fury will cover. It's radius isn't huge, but is pretty big. When the Smash Attack is released, Link uses Urbosa's Fury as well as the Smash Attack. Urbosa appears by Link and deals some damage to opponents in the lightning aura while stunning them for an extended period of time.

Mipha's Grace - This gauge represents how much charge Mipha's Grace has. It fills up and depletes the same way as Urbosa's Fury. When the gauge fills up, Mipha's Grace happens automatically the next frame. Mipha pops out circling around Link and heals a fraction of the damage Link took.

I wanted to incorporate the four champions into Link's move set because he has them in his actual game. To not see representation of them in Smash Ultimate at all in spite of the fact that Breath of the Wild Link is in the game was a bit of a let down. Some of the other moves I changed in the revamp was trying to stay loyal to the combat system of that game.

 

[Quillion]

Ugh, why is it people want to change movesets to change because "canon"? Doesn't anyone realize it's just unfair to the vast majority of people who have dedicated themselves to learning the ins and outs of a character and want to stick with them throughout a series?

The only real change I want is to give Samus projectile normals, but only because ZSS is the melee Samus therefore Varia Samus should be projectile Samus.

Other than that, this topic is ridiculous. It ignores any thought towards design or keeping a niche for the sake of "canon". Please, no more.

 

[Necro'lic]

Ugh, why is it people want to change movesets to change because "canon"? Doesn't anyone realize it's just unfair to the vast majority of people who have dedicated themselves to learning the ins and outs of a character and want to stick with them throughout a series?

The only real change I want is to give Samus projectile normals, but only because ZSS is the melee Samus therefore Varia Samus should be projectile Samus.

Other than that, this topic is ridiculous. It ignores any thought towards design or keeping a niche for the sake of "canon". Please, no more.

*Raises hand*

I gave Samus projectile normals in my rework thread.

 

[RouffWestie]

Have just a move or two use the magic wands from SMB3.
Give him a unique moveset based on the puzzle gameplay of his series.
Grappling hook in place of the hookshot.
Give him the same combo and Up Smash/Up Tilt, as he has in Meta Knightmare Ultra.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

Ugh, why is it people want to change movesets to change because "canon"? Doesn't anyone realize it's just unfair to the vast majority of people who have dedicated themselves to learning the ins and outs of a character and want to stick with them throughout a series?

The only real change I want is to give Samus projectile normals, but only because ZSS is the melee Samus therefore Varia Samus should be projectile Samus.

Other than that, this topic is ridiculous. It ignores any thought towards design or keeping a niche for the sake of "canon". Please, no more.

It makes the characters feel more like themselves. A ton of characters still use outdated moves or movesets. To name an example, FLUDD. There are also some characters that are way too similar to each other. I know Smash Ultimate has officially declared them to be "Echo Fighters", but there are characters who are still partially clones of the characters they originated from. Those characters don't fight like themselves.

It does interfere with the mains, but being that cloning is the main reason for revamps, they could turn to the original character for the play style.

 

[Quillion]

It makes the characters feel more like themselves. A ton of characters still use outdated moves or movesets. To name an example, FLUDD. There are also some characters that are way too similar to each other. I know Smash Ultimate has officially declared them to be "Echo Fighters", but there are characters who are still partially clones of the characters they originated from. Those characters don't fight like themselves.

It does interfere with the mains, but being that cloning is the main reason for revamps, they could turn to the original character for the play style.

But all of those times, echoes and semi-echoes make sense.

• Fox, Falco, and Wolf don't have much to go off of other than a blaster.
• Dark Samus is the Metroid Prime having absorbed part of Samus's suit.
• Dark Pit is a literal clone of Pit.
• Fire Emblem lords like Marth, Roy, and Chrom don't have much to go off of. Ike and Corrin are the lucky ones.
• Lucas didn't have much to go off of either, plus he shares Ness's healing niche in canon.
• Ganondorf used a ground punch in OoT, a kick in WW and TP, and an elbow strike in TP.

That was only a partial list. So why would you change something that's clearly working now for something that's untested and unfamiliar?

 

[Crystanium]

Ugh, why is it people want to change movesets to change because "canon"? Doesn't anyone realize it's just unfair to the vast majority of people who have dedicated themselves to learning the ins and outs of a character and want to stick with them throughout a series?

The only real change I want is to give Samus projectile normals, but only because ZSS is the melee Samus therefore Varia Samus should be projectile Samus.

Other than that, this topic is ridiculous. It ignores any thought towards design or keeping a niche for the sake of "canon". Please, no more.

I've mained Samus since 1999. If her moveset could be altered to improve her frame data, improve combo set-ups, &c. all in the name of canon, I would happily take the time to relearn her.

 

[Necro'lic]

But all of those times, echoes and semi-echoes make sense.

• Fox, Falco, and Wolf don't have much to go off of other than a blaster.
• Dark Samus is the Metroid Prime having absorbed part of Samus's suit.
• Dark Pit is a literal clone of Pit.
• Fire Emblem lords like Marth, Roy, and Chrom don't have much to go off of. Ike and Corrin are the lucky ones.
• Lucas didn't have much to go off of either, plus he shares Ness's healing niche in canon.
• Ganondorf used a ground punch in OoT, a kick in WW and TP, and an elbow strike in TP.

That was only a partial list. So why would you change something that's clearly working now for something that's untested and unfamiliar?

• Fox, Falco, and Wolf don't have much to go off of other than a blaster.

Well considering the inclusion of new tools from Star Fox Assault and Star Fox Zero, I think you could potentially make something out of at LEAST Falco. I think Fox can stay the same and Wolf already is pretty unique.

• Dark Samus is the Metroid Prime having absorbed part of Samus's suit.

And yet it is infused with Phazon, a mutagen that increases physical strength. Plus Dark Samus also moves much differently. Why not give some Phazon enhancement style moves?

• Dark Pit is a literal clone of Pit.

Who's main weapon is a laser staff and who debuted in a game with a MASSIVE amount of weaponry to choose from for an original moveset

• Fire Emblem lords like Marth, Roy, and Chrom don't have much to go off of. Ike and Corrin are the lucky ones.

Honestly, I don't really believe this at all. I made a Roy rework thread where he uses his Rapier to fight along with his sword AND changes some more attacks to different sword strikes altogether. On top of that, I gave some moves of Roy's damage over time via fire from his Binding Blade.

I think you attribute Ike and Corrin's luck more from the fact they have an original moveset at all and less than Roy and Chrom not having the capacity for a newer moveset.

• Lucas didn't have much to go off of either, plus he shares Ness's healing niche in canon.

Sure, he shares the healing, but they decloned him pretty thoroughly in Smash 4 and he honestly doesn't need much to get to full original character other than changing his special moves.

• Ganondorf used a ground punch in OoT, a kick in WW and TP, and an elbow strike in TP.

He still could use more pure magic blasts. I personally would take more inspiration from Hyrule Warriors' style of Ganondorf for his Smash fighting style since it seems like the best of both worlds (plus it's badass).

 

[Quillion]

I've mained Samus since 1999. If her moveset could be altered to improve her frame data, improve combo set-ups, &c. all in the name of canon, I would happily take the time to relearn her.

You are just ONE person, though. Who are you against millions?

 

[Polar Bair]

You are just ONE person, though. Who are you against millions?

Ignoring the wild exaggeration here for a minute, why are you so convinced movesets that don't work well and are outdated shouldn't be changed, ever? Characters should evolve over time. Most people who play Smash are attached to the character, not how they play. A good redesign should keep the character's role but actually makes them effective.

 

[Deleted member]

Ignoring the wild exaggeration here for a minute, why are you so convinced movesets that don't work well and have barely changed since their debut can't be changed? Characters should evolve over time. Most people who play Smash are attached to the character, not how they play, and a good redesign keeps the character's role but actually makes them effective.

If every move was still the same, Olimar would still keep that ugly recovery from Brawl, and Pit wouldn't look as nice as in Smash 4.

Also, do we really want to keep the falling on the floor mechanic and gliding from Brawl?

 

[Quillion]

Ignoring the wild exaggeration here for a minute, why are you so convinced movesets that don't work well and are outdated shouldn't be changed, ever? Characters should evolve over time. Most people who play Smash are attached to the character, not how they play. A good redesign should keep the character's role but actually makes them effective.

Movesets only work poorly because of bad frame data, damage, hitbox size, and other things relevant to design. Being outdated has no bearing on whether a moveset doesn't work or not.

Maybe things like overdone tethers or gliding can go since they're bad design, but there's no reason to do things like give Ganondorf a sword, DK his coconut gun, or Zelda her Light Bow. Doing things like that actually IS bad design because it disrupts the niche that the characters have had for a long time.

 

[Polar Bair]

Movesets only work poorly because of bad frame data, damage, hitbox size, and other things relevant to design. Being outdated has no bearing on whether a moveset doesn't work or not.

Maybe things like overdone tethers or gliding can go since they're bad design, but there's no reason to do things like give Ganondorf a sword, DK his coconut gun, or Zelda her Light Bow. Doing things like that actually IS bad design because it disrupts the niche that the characters have had for a long time.

Sometimes those can be good choices though. You're telling me there's no way any of those things could benefit a character while still keeping them true to how they play? Ganondorf didn't cease being a slow, powerful character that has to make reads to succeed when Ultimate changed his smashes. I'll give you the Coconut Gun example, because that's a silly one that could totally change DKs niche. But if an idea is fresh, in line with the character's interpretation, and improves them within reason, it sounds worth trying. You're saying nothing should ever change because there are bad ideas in this thread, like that's not the case everywhere. Even in Smash sometimes.

 

[Quillion]

Sometimes those can be good choices though. You're telling me there's no way any of those things could benefit a character while still keeping them true to how they play? Ganondorf didn't cease being a slow, powerful character that has to make reads to succeed when Ultimate changed his smashes. I'll give you the Coconut Gun example, because that's a silly one that could totally change DKs niche. But if an idea is fresh, in line with the character's interpretation, and improves them within reason, it sounds worth trying. You're saying nothing should ever change because there are bad ideas in this thread, like that's not the case everywhere. Even in Smash sometimes.

But Ganondorf was just so fun as the slow, powerful puncher that just doesn't give a damn. Scoring kills required being a combination of arrogant and calculating. Sure, it wasn't done entirely right, but for non-serious play, the moveset was just so meaty and satisfying. And Melee at least proved that there was some competitive potential in the moveset; it just needs usable frame data and maybe something to power through flinching.

Yes, giving Ganondorf a sword perhaps wasn't too big of a change, but it still ruins what people have found fun about his playstyle for a long time. What's the point of playing arrogant and calculating when you have such big, sweeping hitboxes? There's just no reason anymore.

Even small changes like that are damaging to a character's enjoyability. I think even Smash 4's Bowser is another prime example since the monstrous kaiju that was in Melee and Brawl is now an inexplicably fast wrestler. Yes, it makes him more canon, but without that awesome headbutt, claw jabs, Koopa Klaw, and shell spin D-smash, he's just not as enjoyable as he was before. It feels like his moveset no longer has as much weight as it used to; it's heavy, but it's not satisfyingly heavy.

I can see the value in changing movesets for canon, but it's ultimately unfair to most people to change Smash characters just because they did this one thing in this one game. I don't entirely hate the idea; my feelings tend to flip-flop, but I'm sure that everyone but a vocal minority prefers that movesets stay as constant as possible.

 

[Dee Dude]

I only made this topic cause I was interested in seeing people’s thoughts on what possible overhauls people would want to see on characters for those who are unhappy.

I discarded the whole “main alienation” thing to see if people are willing to take the risk even if they’re said character’s main.

So what if some people are interested in having moveset that are true to the spirit of the character, I never said I actually want this to happen since there are plenty of Smash original movesets I enjoy, this is
completely like many other threads.

 

[Deleted member]

I only made this topic cause I was interested in seeing people’s thoughts on what possible overhauls people would want to see on characters for those who are unhappy.

I discarded the whole “main alienation” thing to see if people are willing to take the risk even if they’re said character’s main.

So what if some people are interested in having moveset that are true to the spirit of the character, I never said I actually want this to happen since there are plenty of Smash original movesets I enjoy, this is
completely like many other threads.

Original moves aren't bad.

Captain Falcon and R.O.B. are a good example of that.

Personally, the only buff that i want is for my main (Varia Samus).

She is too weak.

 

[Crystanium]

You are just ONE person, though. Who are you against millions?

Yes, one person who is voicing his opinion. If these millions wish to partake in this kind of discussion, they're free to do so. The point is that until one speaks contrary to what I think, these millions you speak of can go either way. They might agree with me or not. We cannot know, so let's put this lack of information aside and work with who can voice their opinion.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Well it's kinda half and half regarding my revamp for him. First, he will keep his current moveset, but he also will have two new full-fledged movesets you can choose from before a match, featuring him using an EZ Cannon, and another for a Palutena Blade. Where his Bow moveset is more of versatility and jack-of-all-trades, the Cannon moveset is all about power and area control with various explosions, although he'll definitely be slower. The Blade style is about range and reach, and can choose projectiles, with its charge shot being good at neutralizing enemy projectiles (even going through a Mewtwo fully-charged Neutral-B with no problem and still traveling), though it's not that strong at all. The Blade moveset will have no reflectors to make up for its good reach and access to some projectiles.
It's just a rough idea where I want Pit to be more true to Uprising in a way, by the player choosing a "weapon loadout" before the match, where you choose between the versatile and combo-heavy Bow, the great melee range of the Blade (that also has projectiles), or the field control and power of the Cannon. At the same time, you'll be able to pick which one of the 3 that suit your style most or the particular matchup you're in. Obviously you can't change weapons during the match though (with the exception of picking each weapon in Squad mode or whatever it was called).


Similar to Pit's situation, but his two full-fledged movesets feature his Staff and Ogre Club. To make it short, his DP Staff is all about range and skill with aiming while he's poor in close range, while his Ogre Club is all about close-ranged power that rivals even the strongest heavyweights although he will move slow. The Bow moveset is unchanged and will play as the only moveset that he and Pit will share, where his two unique movesets feature different weapons and styles.
Note that the Ogre Club moveset will feature the ability to deflect most projectiles via certain swing attacks, similar to how Ness and his Bat does it.


She'll be greatly revamped and turned into a heavyweight with many different projectiles, identical to her style in her KIU boss battle. Various projectiles attacks include the "Autoreticle" projectiles being able to be aimed in front of her with control, the slow "shield" projectile that occasionally shoots a projectile as it travels though she can only use it once in a while, and the tilt attacks will definitely be changed mostly because they're garbage in the first place. The pillar of U-smash and Reflect Barrier will stay, more attacks with her shield will be present, and her air mobility will be a bit better due to her levitation power. She will move a bit slower on the ground however. Honestly it did confuse me how she wasn't a heavyweight in the first place, for Pit's heavier now despite Palu having all that jewelry and gear with her.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

But all of those times, echoes and semi-echoes make sense.

So why would you change something that's clearly working now for something that's untested and unfamiliar?

Because they make less sense canonically. Smash Bros is a game that brings Nintendo and even some third party fighters together to battle to the death (or see who gets the most kills and dies the least if you’re not competitive), but if characters aren’t themselves then there really isn’t a point to bringing them to whatever stage you happen to be playing on at all.

Besides, characters in the competitive realm are based on frame data, damage, launch power, hit boxes, general statistics, and more. Not based on what type of moves they use. I would argue that Zelda’s current move set hasn’t worked, and that any other move set for her is better than what we currently have based on the tier lists of the past three games.

The only reasons for keeping the outdated and irrelevant move sets is because people are reluctant to change. Now why does that argument seem familiar?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

• Dark Samus is the Metroid Prime having absorbed part of Samus's suit.

And yet it is infused with Phazon, a mutagen that increases physical strength. Plus Dark Samus also moves much differently. Why not give some Phazon enhancement style moves?

Dark Samus already levitates above ground during her walking, dash and rolling animations, so they managed to capture that feel from her games. What else do you want to them to change in her movement?

And in regards to her moves, I know she has her own but she also heavily mimics Samus's since she was created from her genetic material and power suit. In Prime 2, she shoots missiles and power missiles, uses morph ball, uses boost ball, her spread shot is a variation of Samus's Power Beam. Her being the way she is now in Ultimate makes sense with her canon.

• Dark Pit is a literal clone of Pit.

Who's main weapon is a laser staff and who debuted in a game with a MASSIVE amount of weaponry to choose from for an original moveset

He has a weapon named after him, but he actually comes at you with several of them and in most of the chapters he prefers to use the Silver Bow. That aside, Dark Pit is a literal mirror image of Pit; anything he does Pit can do as well. Perhaps if he was a character with a higher priority they could diverse him more, but being a clone it's the most accurate representation you can do for him.

Yes, giving Ganondorf a sword perhaps wasn't too big of a change, but it still ruins what people have found fun about his playstyle for a long time. What's the point of playing arrogant and calculating when you have such big, sweeping hitboxes? There's just no reason anymore.

What?
I really don't understand the point in an "arrogant" playtstyle and how his new sword ruins him now. Your explanation isn't very coherent.

Because they make less sense canonically. Smash Bros is a game that brings Nintendo and even some third party fighters together to battle to the death (or see who gets the most kills and dies the least if you’re not competitive), but if characters aren’t themselves then there really isn’t a point to bringing them to whatever stage you happen to be playing on at all.

...Except that he already explained why those characters being clones make sense canonically for the most part. Why people in this fanbase like to pretend that someone being a clone is inaccurate when their source material clearly disproves this notion?

Also, change by virtue of being change isn't inherently good. You also need to have a move that can fulfill a function properly. I honestly don't understand the motion for removing FLUDD just because it was featured in a game that came out years ago. Super Cape is far older and hasn't being featured in any Mario game since World therefore making it much more outdated than FLUDD, shouldn't we remove it first? If we did, Mario would lose a very good tool useful for reflecting and edgeguarding, so then we have to ask ourselves if the change was worth it.
Mario is a great example of a moveset that is practical while being faithful to the source material throughout the character's history. Fireball is his projectile, Super Jump Punch is his recovery, Cape is a defensive option and FLUDD is a disruptive tool that can edgeguard or force your opponent at a disadvantage. His normals, being taken from Mario 64, are well rounded and suited for the close quarters combat nature of the game. They all synergize very well with each other.

I don't see a good reason to replace his existing moves with something from the newer games just because they are new. Don't fix what is not broken.
In the comic Dark Knight Returns 2 by Frank Miller, he gave the Flash a black suit with shorts instead of his red one. This is the explanation Flash gives us for ditching his red costume: "The old design was really... old". A fine example of "screw iconism" offering no good reason other than that they wanted to change something.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Ugh, why is it people want to change movesets to change because "canon"? Doesn't anyone realize it's just unfair to the vast majority of people who have dedicated themselves to learning the ins and outs of a character and want to stick with them throughout a series?

I realize it's "unfair" (lol), but I just don't care.

 

[Squirtle/Mario guy]

There's a non-competitive reason to keep Jr. in the Clown Car: It makes him more unique.

Ik but some people wanted it so i decided to do it just for fun

Im aware that Sakurai likes uniwue fighters, i mean look at Villager, Duck Hunt and heck even Robin

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

...Except that he already explained why those characters being clones make sense canonically for the most part. Why people in this fanbase like to pretend that someone being a clone is inaccurate when their source material clearly disproves this notion?

No, he didn't claim why it makes sense canonically, he claimed that it makes sense because there isn't canon to go off of.

But all of those times, echoes and semi-echoes make sense.

• Fox, Falco, and Wolf don't have much to go off of other than a blaster.
• Dark Samus is the Metroid Prime having absorbed part of Samus's suit.
• Dark Pit is a literal clone of Pit.
• Fire Emblem lords like Marth, Roy, and Chrom don't have much to go off of. Ike and Corrin are the lucky ones.
• Lucas didn't have much to go off of either, plus he shares Ness's healing niche in canon.
• Ganondorf used a ground punch in OoT, a kick in WW and TP, and an elbow strike in TP.

That was only a partial list. So why would you change something that's clearly working now for something that's untested and unfamiliar?

Dark Samus is enfused with phazon material, moves differently, and is supposed to be stronger. Plus, if you actually watched her battles against Samus, you would see that she has a ton of unique material to go off of. If people want to play like Samus, well nothing is happening to her.

Dark Pit was debuted in a game where there was a huge amount of weaponry to choose from, and the silver bow isn't even his main weapon of choice. It's the staff he uses in his Final Smash. If people want to play a dual sword style of fighting, Pit is still an option.

And the fact that Ganondorf has stayed a partial clone for so many years now is an insult at best to Ganondorf players everywhere. He plays nothing like the games he is based on which is what Smash Bros is about. If Sakurai made Snake a clone fighter or even a partial clone of someone like Mario back in Smash Brawl, people would still be pissed off to this day.

I can't speak for Star Fox, Fire Emblem, or Earthbound but I can guarantee there's a unique move set to go off of somewhere in the games that they're in. There can't be nothing to go off of for Roy, Lucina, and Chrom.