VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[The Irish Mafia]

i'm a diva peach in teams. everything has to happen around me. my teammates are usually better off being somewhere i'm not, because my plan is usually to throw out as many moves as I can, and mash dsmash as much as I want.
aerials are good vs one opponent, ground moves are good vs multiple.
@ Xyzz , the reason those 2 characters are exceptional is that falco can control massive amounts of groundspace while peach can control airspace. he makes a lot of great opportunities for agressive floats and the two combo off one another pretty well. As for ganon, it's mostly that he makes up for her lack of kill potential, and that him comboing a fair off a cc dsmash can mean death on any stage. Her problem with both characters is she has few options but to stock tank, and it's hard to tell who should take the lead and who should support. Also, she needs to go far out of her way to support their recoveries, which is necessary for both in teams.

 

[Blother]

@Ryobeat Just watched your match against Tian and I have to say that I thought you were moving around really well. My current focus is getting a better handle on Peach's movement so I can play less sloppy. I liked those shield drops (or were they float drops?) they seemed to catch Tian off guard. You seemed to connect pretty well after getting a turnip hit, so taking MacD's advice on pulling more turnips would probably help out pretty well.

I haven't played against many campy opponents yet, so it was nice to watch a match on how to keep fairly composed and patient.

 

[MacD]

so yesterday i beat fly's sheik, then kira, then lost to westballz 3-1, then lost to okami 3-0 and got 3rd.

SO MUCH SHEIK LIKE FML. i feel like i leveled up in that match up a tiny bit, but then the getting 3-0'd by okami kinda hit me hard. haven't gone over any of my sets yet, but apparently i'm bad and kept getting sheild grabbed by okami LOLOLOL.....

 

[Xyzz]

The few people who realize that Peach players in general love to hold shield are really, really scary :D

 

[Blother]

If I'm not floating I'm shielding.

@ MacD are there videos of those games?

 

[MacD]

you can skim the twitch archives here http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/b/511727509

sleepyk might be uploading them to youtube also, not sure if/when he'd do that though

EDIT: there are also teams matches of me and fly. it's mostly against double sheik if you want to see how i try to deal with that BS in teams

 

[Babatunde]

lol, Define campy Sheik.

 

[mudkyp]

I was severely humbled by a local Luigi and local Sheik player in bracket last night. Two of my worst match-ups, simply because I don't have a lot of exposure to them. Safe to say, I've done some homework watching a few videos and I will hopefully do a lot better next time.

 

[DoH]

I think I found a use for Peach bomber.

So like Marths like to come in with this nair when you have a turnip. They're close enough where you can't throw the turnip and hit them without getting naired, but if you Peach bomber she compresses herself under the nair and hits them. And it does like 18%. Werq

 

[Babatunde]

I'd love to see footage of that sometime. Wait, QUICK, Go expose a Marth with it rl quick

 

[MacD]

while streaming last night, i got the random urge to do some play by play what i'm thinking commentary. it's vs connor's fox. it's really rough and i just kinda did it in the moment.

let me know what you guys think. is it helpful? did you enjoy it? are there things you wished i talked about? if people like it i'll try to do it more and better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp02mm2O_QQ

 

[Jethrotex]

Oh my goodness, at 1:07 or something, I dunno if you did that on purpose, but oh mannnn, that was cool. I do a lot of weird wavelanding things like that to adjust position and force my opponents into weird spots, but I never thought to cancel the waveland into a quick float and waveland afterwards. Oh man, that'll make my cortalings so cooool.

I also like watching your Peach because of how minimalist it is yet how effective. I dabble with too much subtle bs that doesn't matter cause Fox/Marth/Falco/Falcon vs Peach give little ****s about subtly sometimes lol.

 

[Blother]

That was actually pretty interesting I enjoyed it

Unrelated, but I am wondering if you can peach bomber up a wall without having some kind of back wall to keep yourself from bouncing too far away?

 

[Jethrotex]

You can peach bomber up all the wall stages. FD, FoD (above the thin part), Yoshi's. You can do it on dreamland, but there's never any need since it's about as high as your umbrella.

 

[Xyzz]

That was actually pretty interesting I enjoyed it

Unrelated, but I am wondering if you can peach bomber up a wall without having some kind of back wall to keep yourself from bouncing too far away?

You need to do the smash version of the peach bomber (like Samus we also have two versions of our side-b, depending whether we smash the controlstick to do it or not), and can't waste a lot of frames between two iterations.

 

[AozoraX]

How does one deal with Falcons and Foxes now?

They all seem to know to come from above with stomps or drills nowadays.
Do we have any aerial contest if they're overshooting aerials or nairplaning? I can't seem to dash attack Falcon or get away from Fox in time to space a CC dsmash when they whiff. Am I just slow?

 

[Jethrotex]

Sdi the drill to downsmash. Jab the drill. Wavedash back. Grab it. Bair it.

Sh drill covers a pretty short distance, just react when you see it come out. In the neutral position vs fox, just draw a some lines in your head. if he jumps from the first line, he's gonna nair from full length, if he passes the second line, his nair will overshoot and he can sh drill, just cc and you can sdi the drill or cc the nair. If he passes the third line he's probably gonna sh drill or try to grab, if he's right next to you, he can't jump in time so he's probably looking to grab. There's some tricks with double jump and continued dash dancing which are kinda meh to deal with, but usually if he double jumps he's just looking to make you flinch and will most likely jump back if you don't do anything that'll get you hit.

Vs Falcon, you can run under him or roll and get behind him. I think you can dash attack his dair, you just need to time it better, but I forget atm. Sometimes I like to mess with them by running under with fc nair since the back arm has a lot of priority. Wavedash back is pretty good too, careful for the aerial to gentlemen, his jabs are like a shine, except you can sdi the first jab behind him and downsmash.

 

[AprilShaw]

Do any Peach players use lagless landing (no lag landing? lag free landing? I'm not sure what it's called xD) in their platform game? Where you double jump right above a platform and land with 0 frames of lag. I was messing around with it today a little bit and it seemed fairly easy for a lot of benefit. Haven't seen any other Peach players using it though.

 

[knightpraetor]

isn't it easier to just float to the platform height and lagless land

 

[knightpraetor]

@aa

How does one deal with Falcons and Foxes now?

They all seem to know to come from above with stomps or drills nowadays.
Do we have any aerial contest if they're overshooting aerials or nairplaning? I can't seem to dash attack Falcon or get away from Fox in time to space a CC dsmash when they whiff. Am I just slow?

For fox you can't reactively deal with his dash options unless you're at a very wide spacing. attempt to maintain a wider spacing when grounded so you can dodge and if they keep trying to break that spacing either attack yourself or take to the air for defense.

also fox coming from above with drill is really bad. just smash DI the drill. outprioritize the drill, dodge the drill.

SH drill has no range..if he's hitting you with it in neutral you aren't mobile enough. if he's establishing pressure and then hitting you with it when you roll, that's pretty good. Can't do much about it except not get pinned in the first place

 

[AprilShaw]

How does one deal with Falcons and Foxes now?

They all seem to know to come from above with stomps or drills nowadays.
Do we have any aerial contest if they're overshooting aerials or nairplaning? I can't seem to dash attack Falcon or get away from Fox in time to space a CC dsmash when they whiff. Am I just slow?

If they're coming from above, usmash and utilt both have invincibility. Against Falcon specifically, if he tries to jump above and stomp, I just like to full hop and uair him out of it if I'm close enough.

 

[Quaz]

SHEIK IS soooooo HARD! D=

 

[WIDL]

Just wondering, how do you guys go about practicing (vs cpus?)?

I feel Peach is really boring compared to practicing with spacies. My tech skills is pretty good, but I still feel I should at least try to get in 30 minutes-1 hour a day. Do any of you have a specific way of training? I know a lot of people use the 1-player glitch for movement practice, but not sure how beneficial it is with Peach. I know Armada tends to practice certain combos over and over, but I don't feel I have something specific. I usually just go vs a level 3 Fox/Falco. I'm going to a tourney in a couple of days (lotsa tourneys in Norway nowadays), so hopefully I can get a couple of the sets recorded.

 

[AozoraX]

So in which direction should we be sdi-ing fox drills and shines then? To the sides?

 

[knightpraetor]

@ AozoraX
yes, to the sides

my basic practice routine is typically:

practice missing fair by a set # of millimeters as i cross to close on the opponent.

do various full hop zoning patterns on the walking cpu for 10-20sec.

Practice all forms of leaving platform with peach.

practice different DJ swing baits i use, ensuring that my float heights are within 1cm of what i want to select when exiting the dodge.

pick random spots offstage, visualize the fox being there firefoxing run off throw the turnip, drop finish, etc.

combo my opponent vertically. practice turnip combos on the opponent while they are in the air. Practice rapid FC nairs low.

practice momentum shifts on floats while visualizing various zoning moves that i have to beat.
practice Shield movement, retreating floats out of shield.

practice dashdancing and moving while interspersing low floats and sh aerials. practice platform combos off upthrow at various percents.
I practice a lot of setups into various turnip snipe edgeguarding practice.

i'm sure there is more, but i'm so confident of a lot of the old stuff that I don't practice it. Honestly the hardest thing on the list is probably still hitting turnips when a fastfall is required and making sure float heights are exactly what they need to be off of a fastfall in a full/DJ. Honestly even a cm off from the selected height on a float is gamebreaking at higher level.

to me, the most annoying things in tourney are dying from burning my float on a DJ if i miss the DJ timing and having the opponent win an exchange even though my read was correct because the spacing/height of my float was wrong. and those are followed closely by misjudging the current amount of momentum i have, causing me to misspace.

The Cooldown: finally, switch to marth, practice fine dashdance control and more zoning stuff with fair, then switch to pikachu and practice cool gimp combos (never forget to walk it off, you don't want to pull a muscle)

 

[Jethrotex]

Yo, good stuff MacD.

 

[MacD]

I WILL BE THE HERO PEACH NEEDS!!!!!!!!!

thanks! i basically all but solved my falcon problem. no more getting 3 stocked by S2J over and over again. i also went through the sheik gauntlet again. i wouldn't say i had the best showing vs sheik, but i beat all 3 of them so i did things are least somewhat right. i would not recommend Dsmashing as much as i did vs okami. i knew i was going to lose the trade sometimes, but he seemed to run into a few too many so i figured even if i get punished for a few, the few that hit will make up for it. it's weird, falcon and sheik seemed all but impossible, but something changed and now they are both super possible to beat. i basically just got a little more patient and started yielding to the matchups to a point. like no more full hopping nair'ing into falcon LOLOL. i've still got my jank style though, don't worry

sleepyk will be uploading those vids to youtube soon enough, or you can check the archives on twitch.tv/leveluplive

also me and fiction are gonna be a static team going forward for a while. we are going to poop on peeps at regionals and nationals so ya'll better look out for that.

 

[Xyzz]

Peach - Fox is one of the - if not the strongest teams in melee, you're both amazing players and your general styles align very well with how the team probably works best (you're super aggressive, Fiction is fairly patient)... what could possibly go wrong? :D

 

[Jethrotex]

Falco, Marth and Falcon still make me sad.

 

[WIDL]

So the Marth matchup has become a gigantic issue for me.

http://www.twitch.tv/gardex/b/519243821?t=101m

I just can't. Help? For the sweetspots, I know Armada tends to catch it with a dair-dsmash sometimes, but I can't seem to properly position myself for it.

 

[The PikMan]

Great showing VaNz, it was interesting to watch your style, especially against gravy, a matchup I struggle with. Shame those Samus grabs got you

 

[knightpraetor]

i really wish twitch matches got put on youtube more often. i find it very hard to find and watch twitch matches later. I guess I should learn how to do it myself.

However, those peach dittos taught me quite a bit. Thanks Vanz. Now if I could just find a peach player to practice against.

 

[The PikMan]

They'll be uploaded within a week or so, VGBC is pretty good about uploading matches

 

[MacD]

GIMR uploaded everything by this point. recently he's been uploading most everything at the tourneys.

 

[Cia]

Thanks guys. Not entirely proud of the way I played, but placed higher than I expected to

 

[Snowfin]

while streaming last night, i got the random urge to do some play by play what i'm thinking commentary. it's vs connor's fox. it's really rough and i just kinda did it in the moment.

let me know what you guys think. is it helpful? did you enjoy it? are there things you wished i talked about? if people like it i'll try to do it more and better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp02mm2O_QQ

Dude i think it was awesome, please do more of those!!! And DONT GET CAUGHT IN THE TREEEEEE!!!!!

 

[AozoraX]

So, I'm still having issues versus Falcons, Foxes are no big deal anymore but -
I'm getting used to the matchup still. I know the finer pieces and reading Page 1 as a review helps a little.
Anymore general tips versus Falcon? Stages to pick, moves to trade/watch out for, etc.

 

[MacD]

that front post is kinda meh advice at this point IMO. the match up has evolved. you can't float camp a falcon. he'll just nair you or knew you. at least that's how it should go.

you can't trade with/beat falcon in the air. i used to get pooped on by S2J cause i would go for full hop nairs and just get knee'd or something. watch armada vs westballz/S2J from EVO to get a small idea. that's how i'm sorta handling the matchup now. you can watch the recent thing of me vs S2J/Westballz from last SSS.

Dreamland is good normally because you can live Dthrow knee at higher percents, and if you live long enough, dthrow knee stops being a combo. stages are hard to say and almost might just come down to preference

 

[OliClutch117]

That combo at the end of game one vs Westballz was beautiful MacD

 

[AozoraX]

So given the new meta and evolution - I see that Armada seems to just get in their faces with uairs most of the time. Shieldgrabbing the nairs and other things seem to flow so well, but maybe that means I should ask
If I know they'll nair, should I attempt to shieldgrab it? Most Falcons overshoot nairs and... yeah, they crossup.
Reactionary bair out of shield perhaps?