VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Babatunde]

lol u play peach?

nintendude has a great peach for a secondary and an even better shiek!
Just look at his xanadu matches

 

[Nintendude]

The sad part is I've put a ton of effort into Peach but virtually none into Sheik.

 

[K@$h]

besides WD Oos what other Oos options are good to learn. ive been experimenting with DJC'ed aerials, but i think thats to slow.

 

[Nintendude]

Up-B oos is good for dealing with spacies pressure, and Nair oos is good in some situations as well.

 

[Xyzz]

Float > (optional movement on moves with more range and wind-down > ) Aerial (usually nair) is really good.

I like up smash OOS against some things, e.g. if I see spacies start a dash attack at some spacings I know it'll end at a place where the shoulderpad up smash will connect and if that'll lead to a cool combo I'll take it.

Armada recommended playing around with dj-land > downsmash. (Not that something that guy advocates needed further credentials, but I personally haven't really tried those, because I rarely play Peach at the moment... so I can't tell from personal experience how good it feels ).

Also: Never discredit the technically trivial things like roll / shield grab. They have their uses

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Nair oos is a good punish, both fullhop, shorthop, and DJC if you do it fast enough (though it does run the risk of losing your double jump, which you need to make it back, say, after marth tipper fsmashes you out of your DJC nair). I've put a lot of work into my fc nair oos so I can "parry" most unspaced normals
up B is kinda dragon punchy, it's perfect if they're at that in front & above angle, but it is a 3rd jump so whiffing it is bad, especially if they get below you
WD back is really key because of what a large distinction there is between a peach that will respond to a situation by abusing her priority and one that keeps you guessing. if your opponent gets comfortable winning trades vs you then you really need to be able to wd back and punish whatever he tries.
Turnip throw oos is pretty good but I'm still uncomfortable doing it

 

[ShroudedOne]

Turnip throw OOS is baller vs Puff. There's a lot of things to experiment with when it comes to her out of shield, and you don't always have to do something.

 

[K@$h]

Thanks for the all the feedback! yeah i was assuming Nair Oos was one of my better choices (whether insta-floated or whatever). i dont think my fingers are quite fast or coordinated enough to consistently DJC Oos every single time. but thanks again i gots a lot to work on!

 

[Xyzz]

Do people djc nair oos because it's easier to them than float nair?

Because other than that I can't find anything that'd make that seem like a good idea :x

 

[kalamazhu]

why would u dj cancel nair? just nair oos and float nair oos and wd oos.

 

[K@$h]

personally I find DJC easier than float oos becasue i can just mash the face of the controller and get one of 3 options DJC Nair, DJC jab(to d-smash), DJC dsamsh. i also think the DJc aerial hits lower to the ground

 

[KirbyKaze]

Some simple things you can do out of your shield...

Ground float aerials OOS
SH aerial OOS
FJ aerial OOS
WD OOS
FJ OOS into float
SH OOS into float
Up+B OOS

There's more, but that should get you started.

 

[Purpletuce]

K@sh, ever go to GC?

 

[K@$h]

nahh my friend and i have been planning on going to one, but you know how they say college kids have no money? Highschoolers have even less.

 

[Purpletuce]

Not necessarily, it all depends on circumstance. Your parents probably still pay for some of your stuff, however you don't get financial aid either, so some highschoolers have money, some college students do, and sometimes you never have either. You should try to get to one though, and there are carpools from all over, if your folks are fine with you being around 'strangers'.

Going to tournaments will also help you a ton at getting better :D

 

[AozoraX]

Throwing turnips out of shield is so amazing when someone thinks you're about to jump out. They get smoked by it and you get some breathing room to reset or something. But getting caught with turnip in shield is pretty crappy to begin with, though.

 

[knightpraetor]

I think i asked this before, but i forgot. How many frames is sh drop turnip into nair out of shield? just wondering how long the turnip drop animation takes.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Who do you all normally use as a secondary? I'm not fully aware of my weak matchups, but I would say my worst is Falco. So I was fiddling around with Fox and Marth, and ended up going with Marth. Good or bad choice for certain counterpicks?

P.S. FJ aerial, what does that mean?

 

[Xyzz]

Fulljump, as opposed to short hops.

I don't think a secondary is necessary for Peach (and going Peach all the way helps you develop her gameplay a lot). Marth is probably fine, if you want to go that route. He doesn't do much for Sheik, and I'd be terribly afraid of trying to face CF without knowing every nuance of Marth, but decent Fox / Puff matchups are probably helpful. Fox is pretty cool, because he has like no bad matchups, on the other hand, the other guy WILL perfectly know how to play against him, so he'll usually have a better idea about what to do in the matchup at hand than you do.

I personally play Falco a bit, because he's a) (imho) the best character in the game, b) really fun to use, c) has no bad matchups. (I don't use him in serious matches, unless I know I'll stomp the other guy badly no matter what, and want to look better doing so lol)

You might want to consider going with Sheik... there's two prominent examples (vanz, atma) who've shown this to work quite well. Plus Sheik is kinda "basic"... your general melee skill really translates well into playing Sheik... few character specific techniques, and her tactics in the different match-ups are rather intuitive, too. (just to clarify: I don't think she's too easy or cheap. She's perfectly fine, she just doesn't have to learn so many unique things (weird IC chaingrabs / matchup specific things ("how the hell do I get in on Marth as Peach?"). She just learns how to do her standard stuff, the rest is based on applying those well in the match at hand.)

 

[Heero Yuy]

Sheik just isn't my type of character, which is why I don't feel like picking her up. I can agree that Falco is the best character in the game, however. I kinda use Marth now for the same reasons as you because he's just plain fun to use. In fact... Y'know what. Xyzz, you just made me decide that: I'll just focus on Peach 100% while simultaneously using Marth in friendlies.

 

[kalamazhu]

I secondary fox for my bad matchups falcon and puff. The thing is I actually do play a lot of fox and he is a serious character not just a joke secondary so it works out for me... don't expect to pick up a secondary to get free wins you need to work in it a lot.

@HeeroYuy you shouldn't need marth. As peach you should be comfortable with the falco matchup as it is one of peaches best top tier matchups.

 

[Babatunde]

As peach you should be comfortable with the falco matchup as it is one of peaches best top tier matchups.

Dem lasers doe, what should i do against them?

 

[Strong Badam]

float at a height just above them

 

[Xyzz]

^ is the general go-to.

Some Falcos also underestimate the range on our dash attack, and shoot at unsafe distances. (Best case scenario: You hit him and the laser cancels the lag of DA... not that it needed that to be one of our best combo launchers :D)
Powershielding is also fine, of course. Peach is kinda slow, so it can be hard to get much off it, but if you do it's really nice.

But yeah, no need to get fancy, if he's too far away to be hit, you enter a float height above his lasers and move towards him. At some point he'll either have to approach or try to cross you, that's where you start hitting him.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Dem lasers doe, what should i do against them?

I should smack you.

 

[Babatunde]

I should smack you.

WELL EXCUUUUUUUSE ME PRINCESS XD. I just had my very first serious falco match in the PM ladder in AiB and had trouble with lasers k? Im already thoughtful on floating over them no duh But some times he likes to full hop in order to reach me. Its at that time that i fastfall and try to dash attack him but he shields me everytime. Maybe i should keep the pressure up with another FCed fair at close quarters to mix up my pressure game. Cuz pressure ***** Falco.

 

[Armada]

I don't think a secondary is necessary for Peach (and going Peach all the way helps you develop her gameplay a lot).

I do think it is necessary vs Puff (no one is surprised to see this one coming from me). That MU is very bad I think.
I also think Fox on stadium is VERY stupid. Not necessary to change char but for sure a very hard MU on that stage (hard MU in generall I would say too) I played Falco on that stage sometimes in Sweden cause I felt it was really bad.

But the thing you mention at the end is the reason I stopped doing that even if it made me lose more a few more games in the short run.

 

[Xyzz]

Stadium is stupid in general and should not even be legal :D

I'm undecided on the puff match-up. From looking at you vs hbox where you still tried the Peach route it sure looks horrible (especially since puff just seems to be a bit better in every aspect of the matchup than peach is (has better combos, can effectively gimp (rest), has better edgeguards, is better in the neutral position)).
Then again it might just be Hungrybox being very good against Peach. Just looking at Hax vs Sheik wouldn't make me believe that it's bad for CF at all, and I've literally never seen Hbox play any other Peach than you, and my own playtime vs Puff in general is super limited as well... so I don't really have enough stuff to think about in order to have a real opinion.

In any case, I'm pretty sure the point where it might become worthwile to consider picking up a secondary vs Puff, is far beyond the point where you need to ask for advice online (:

 

[Armada]

Stadium actually is kinda stupid. The fact the stage changes randomly is a big reason to actually remove it to be honest.

Yeah the fact that Puff is better in every aspect of the MU makes it so hard. Falcon is having a hard time with Sheik (I love to play Sheik in that MU =D) but not that bad according to me (compared to this MU).

 

[Purpletuce]

Truth about PS, esp. since how much silly stuff can go on with the transformations (the ledges that will sometimes count as platforms and short your techs/rolls, the walls, the 'foxhole', etc.)

 

[Xyzz]

Stadium actually is kinda stupid. The fact the stage changes randomly is a big reason to actually remove it to be honest.

Yeah the fact that Puff is better in every aspect of the MU makes it so hard. Falcon is having a hard time with Sheik (I love to play Sheik in that MU =D) but not that bad according to me (compared to this MU).

Falcon - Sheik with Hax as the Falcon was just intended as an example, that using a really limited data source can easily give skewed results. But I agree that it's not thaaat bad... maybe ICs - Peach is about as bad as Peach - Puff... but I'm not really confident saying too much about that matchup either... :D
Another thing about Peach - Puff that makes it so annoying imho is that the match up is so slow paced... I mean, if it's Sheik - Falcon, the Falcon can always land that incredible quick Falcon combo stuff and turn a match completely around. In Puff - Peach that can't really happen (except for rest :x :D).

 

[Armada]

Im one of those that thinks Peach is destroying ICs (From what I have most people that play either char thinks it is more even then I do but still) but ICs at least have some punishes (even if they are hard to land) so I would still not say it's as bad.

But most likely the second hardest MU between the top characters (according to me) and then something like Falco vs Falcon would be third maybe.
Have to hate that rest

 

[Xyzz]

I think Falco Falcon just gets truly horrid at the absolute top level (that means PP) where the Falco is super consistent. As long as he sometimes messes up, Falcon destroys him way too hard for the match up to be truly bad :D (it's bad, but nowhere close to unwinnable without being tremendously better than the other guy)

 

[Armada]

I do think the MU is pretty bad. But yeah not unwinnable or something close to that. Just felt for rank the 3 worse MUs between the good chars.

 

[BladeWise]

I also think Fox on stadium is VERY stupid. Not necessary to change char but for sure a very hard MU on that stage (hard MU in generall I would say too) I played Falco on that stage sometimes in Sweden cause I felt it was really bad.

While you are certainly a much better player than me, I disagree with Stadium being so awful against Fox. I know that he can run away easily and it has a short ceiling and stupid transformations.
However, I find that I have a lot of good fortune against Foxes at Stadium, since that's the standard CP.

Against players like Zhu, Silent Wolf, Eggz, and others, I've won consecutive games 4 and 5 on Stadium after being down 2-1 numerous times.
In the set I beat Mango, I was actually up 3 stocks to 1 on Stadium until I choked it away. (I still won game 3 on FoD)

I find that the lack of a top platform helps Peach -- or rather, prevents spacies from dancing around you as easily. Also, without a high 3rd platform, he can't chase you high as easily.

I'm no where near as efficient as you when it comes to comboing, though. You make use of multi-level combos incredibly well, so I wouldn't be surprised if you preferred 3 platforms over 2.

Also, while the transformations certainly favor Fox, if you play carefully, you can use the slants/edges to your advantage to avoid waveshine combos.

However, I do remember extra difficulty in friendlies against M2K's Fox on Stadium. But that was years ago.

 

[Armada]

Yeah the lack of the top plattform can be pretty good with Peach.
I don't really mind it to much cause no one has been using it good enough vs me so I feel it's a problem. Many people have tried for some parts but I just developed my uair game to cover space above me better so I guess few players tried it vs me in the end.

Yeah M2Ks Fox is very hard on Stadium for sure

 

[Strong Badam]

this character is too hard

 

[CyberZixx]

Are you training up Peach for Evo, strong bad?

 

[Purpletuce]

Interesting ideas about the top platform.

Bladewise, what are you meaning by multi-level combos? Are you talking about how he is more prepared to combo onto the top platform? (Ready to chase with U-airs or tech chase, etc.)

 

[Jayk]

Im one of those that thinks Peach is destroying ICs (From what I have most people that play either char thinks it is more even then I do but still) but ICs at least have some punishes (even if they are hard to land) so I would still not say it's as bad.

But most likely the second hardest MU between the top characters (according to me) and then something like Falco vs Falcon would be third maybe.
Have to hate that rest

Since you seem to really feel comfortable in the matchup (and cause you're like, the god of Peach) could you give some advice on how to beat ICs?
This Falco main I play against all the time has recently picked up ICs and somehow they are countering me really hard .

At first I wanted to chalk it down to matchup inexperience, but after playing him ~3-6 hours a week for a month I haven't made much progress...