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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

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This is specifically pointed at Vanz but others can chime in.
How do you feel about peach matching up against fox?


I seriously cannot believe that it is a losing match up for peach. It's about as close to even as exists IMO.
You could make a case if the fox just laser camps but the last fox to do that was M2k vs Armada at Pound 4 where he won one game.
 

DoH

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Beam swords: camp fair to jab. Also throw it on occasion, and dash attacks.

I like playing Foxes. Mostly because I feel like there are very few that can beat me.
 

VA

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I went to a tournament this weekend and this Marth was pissing me off with his endless zoning and retreating Fair camp. So I picked a point on the map, put up a tent, and stayed the night. I'm pretty sure he took almost 300% that game from turnips alone. This was on battlefield btw. If you stand under one of the platforms (closer to the ledge) and hold a turnip, Marth CANNOT approach from any angle w.o eating a turnip on the way. You have to be smart about how you throw it though. If you just throw it because you see him coming, he'll just nair through it or something. But even if he does you can punish the landing lag. I'll try to get a video demonstration up at some point.
sure but like, standing at his DA distance from me i'm pretty sure he can hit u for grabbing either with DA or grab or a dtilt. i think i realised from watching armada that vs marth u have to use odd movement stuff to get him to move. otherwise there's not much unpunishable stuff u can do. i like turnips on fd against marth.
 

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This is specifically pointed at Vanz but others can chime in.
How do you feel about peach matching up against fox?


I seriously cannot believe that it is a losing match up for peach. It's about as close to even as exists IMO.
You could make a case if the fox just laser camps but the last fox to do that was M2k vs Armada at Pound 4 where he won one game.
It's all about level of play. At low level, damage output plays a huge factor in who wins vs fox, and 40% in one move is absurdly good. So bad peaches **** bad foxes. At mid level, it's more about who has a better default game, so if the fox knows how to run away instead of rushing down and losing trades, then he can easily just outmove peach. At high level it's more about space control and punishing options, and then you really get into what tools the characters are provided with. imo it's 50-50 at high level, the only reason I see good peaches lose to good foxes is because they're getting grabbed a lot and not mixing up their already lagless landings. He can drillshine usmash you, but hey, that's life, you can dsmash him right back. Either way, it happens when one player puts the other in a bad situation and capitalizes.
 

VA

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on the topic of drillshine > wavedash usmash, isn't it kind of hard for fox to land this as he has to come at u with vertical momentum/not many hits to avoid it being DI'd out of? if he's moving fully toward u in a SH and using 4+ hits it's easy to hold in and get out of this with ASDI. i guess it's situational i just find it easier and easier to get out of. maybe it's the quality of the foxes i play against ;)
 

Xyzz

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The fox I play against the most manages to do his aerial super low, so he rarely does more than two hits.
I think up smash is pretty stupid in general, that thing has a way too good combination of awesome hitboxes, startup, ending lag, killing power at high and combo stuff at low percents.
Despite hating fox with a passion, I don't think the matchup is too bad either (55 - 45 to 60-40, depending on how "lame" the fox is willing to play).
 

ShroudedOne

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It's just a matchup Peach needs a lot of practice in. It's not insurmountable by any means.

Is there anyone who has any advice for me vs him? I feel like I'm just getting ran around and I can't touch him. :\

@VA: The Marth MU seems to be all about weird movement to get him to swing at you. Peach can't really force Marth to swing at her without it (or turnips, but you can't always have a turnip).
 

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Good responses. I just don't like when people say fox is a bad MU for peach, I never thought so when she can get him off stage with safe and quick moves and literally cover every recovery option. And of course I am referring to high level play since we all aspire to play at that level.
She really only loses to laser camping (once again lol).

New Questions:

How do you all feel about sheik peach? I main sheik and the person I train with most is a good peach (Hanky Panky).

And what exactly am I supposed to do when my shield gets hit by an aerial that is float canceled in general?
Peach is +4 on shield (like we all know) and dsmash hits on frame 5. This gives me (sheik/fox/falcon) 1 frame to act. Seems to me like you always lose that engagement once your shield gets hit.
Peach is +4, grab grabs on frame 7, that is 3 frames to act (so jumping and rolling are both too slow)
Peach is +4, she can jab you if you attempt to shield grab

I suppose having better shield DI would make fair->dmash **** me less but that isn't really a solution to getting out of it.
I guess fox can shine out of shield too but a frame or two too slow and you are eating a CC downsmash.
So, assuming that peach will perform her aerials low enough and space correctly then I don't see a solid response to this other than trying to avoid it in the first place.
 

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@PandaCobo: Nah, it's not. Although Falco can be really hard to face, if you don't know the matchup, but with enough practice Falco vs Peach is actually 50-50 (and because so many Falcos are braindead idiots Peach should usually win ;) ).
@Tactician: Yeah, fc aerial > stuff is good. Although it's fairly doable to avoid getting hit on shield in the first place (Peach is slow), and Peach actually has a bit of trouble to get close to the actual frame advantage, because she's so floaty (therefore fast oos options sometimes work despite super theory bros says they shouldn't).
@ShroudedOne: What exactly are you looking for? Some ideas where your combo starters can come from?
- CC at low percents (and sometimes even at rather high ones if he expects to catch you off guard / in the air with a jab or sth) is really good, Fox isn't the "I can use only dair and still win" bird :)
- aerial > shine > wavedash on your shield is a free nair or sth. And can easily happen, if they expect to get a clean hit and want to wave-shine > upsmash after their aerial.
- if he works the platforms you can cut him off with a turnip and try to land a up air on his expected escape path.
- usual stuff where it's super obvious that he'll dash jump towards you and you can get the WD back > punish of your choice.
- also super business as usual: zoning fair > techchase or other stuff. Can't get those too often in truly neutral positions vs fox, but sometimes he does run into them, and if he's already cornered it's sometimes really hard for him to avoid them.
 

ShroudedOne

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Not sure what I'm looking for. I guess better ways to stuff/react to his movement. But I suppose this comes with practice? In any case, thank you.

If Fox/Peach is 50-50, then we're going to have to start saying that Falco loses to us, cause I DON'T see Falco being as difficult/more difficult than Fox.
 

PandaCobo

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I guess it is just me haha. Falco just seemed to punish my mistakes more than a fox. I think I just know the match up with fox a little more. So... whats the best way to play against a Falco that laser camps and spaces fairly well? Should I try to turnip camp or try to approach?
 

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This is specifically pointed at Vanz but others can chime in.
How do you feel about peach matching up against fox?


I seriously cannot believe that it is a losing match up for peach. It's about as close to even as exists IMO.
You could make a case if the fox just laser camps but the last fox to do that was M2k vs Armada at Pound 4 where he won one game.
Pretty much exactly what Mafia said. Only thing I'd want to add is that I believe no match up is ever "truly" 50:50. So I would still give a slight edge to Fox at the highest level of play. Mobility is just so strong vs Peach and Fox has TONS of it. Peach's super strong punish game keeps the match up close, but it's similar to Fox vs Puff where Puff can win with a few clutch punishes. Fox playing carefully and not falling into silly traps just wins it.

Btw, Fox laser camping is a strong tactic, but most of them will fall into very predictable patters and get ***** for it. It's the Foxes that are in your face 24/7 not letting you breathe that make this match up really tough.
 

Xyzz

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I think it's really good for fox to not actually be in Peach's face all the time, but not really laser camping either. Just dash dancing / general movement stuff, till he can get in safely. If Peach is getting too defensively and waits for him to commit first, then dash back, shoot a shdl and get back to dash dancing.
Luckily few people do that :D
 

Heero Yuy

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I've yet to face a decent Fox in my community. :( I want to know the pain for once of being laser camped...

Day 9 of Hardcore Execution Training Complete.

Who knew these Red Shells would be effective in OoS training?
 

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@Tactician: Yeah, fc aerial > stuff is good. Although it's fairly doable to avoid getting hit on shield in the first place (Peach is slow), and Peach actually has a bit of trouble to get close to the actual frame advantage, because she's so floaty (therefore fast oos options sometimes work despite super theory bros says they shouldn't)
Thanks for the input all.
But yeah, I always cringe when someone writes something off as impractical theory even though I know that's not what you were saying. I get what you mean that yeah no peach is perfect so a slower OoS option might work but if you and the peach have the same reaction time (because counting on having a better reaction time than your opponent is not a strategy) and buffering isn't coming into play then peach still wins the engagements where she has frame advantage. That's how it should be looked at imo.

Frame data is a great way for gauging the safety and quality of options and a good way to figure out the mistakes your opponent is making. Like I seriously studied kirbykaze's framedata guide for fox and I got probably 3 times better OoS (in practice) vs both spacies than I was before taking that to heart. Looking at peach's data, I know that fair/nair->jab is lethal and if the peach is not going for a d smash you should try and wait for a jab/jabx2 then do whatever you want.
 

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@ tactician: from a glance, it looks like you're a little too invested in the numbers. For one thing, sheik can escape fair pressure easier than most characters because her roll is so big. Just hold the C stick away when blocking and buffer roll away from the dsmash. It's really hard to punish sheik's buffer roll, even on prediction.
@ Shrouded / Ryobeat: When I was focused on this problem, I started applying something arcnatural pointed out to me that macD does. If fox is dd camping to punish the landing and peach is floating at platform height, he'll drop a fair and land it under the platform by kinda fading away while the fair is dropping. As far as I can tell, many moves gain priority when moving backwards, so you can beat a lot of run-in usmash jank with that, and just land safely in general. Also, I think an overlooked part of peaches movement is her wavedash. Try using it simply to adjust your spacing against fox. His jumping approaches are pretty one dimensional, and it really does go the perfect distance to allow you to punish his landing with grab or dsmash.
@Wildl: I'll give it a watch, if you like.

Also, am I crazy for thinking peach falco just might be in her favor? I don't think he really has any space control techniques that she can't circumvent and no defense that she can't chase down and punish.
 

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I'm inclined to even, because I always see something happen go like "Wow Falco can really **** Peach", but then she hands it right back to him :D
@Mafia: Moving away from your opponent doesn't grant a move better priority. But it's a lot harder to sneak under / jump over the hitboxes or punish the landing lag if you move away, because of the extra distance the other guy has to cover. :)
 

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Ok, I had no idea if it was manipulating priority or just spacing. What a confusing phrase.
@Wiidl:

I'm watching the first game. Three stocks in, you have not pulled a turnip while fox is on the stage, and you have not dash attacked once. These are tools you must use to control foxes movement. You also get clobbered pretty bad once he hits you, and as far as I can tell, it's because you're a little hasty to counterattack once he knocks you away. At 4:05, you do the first attack of the entire game, which, interestingly enough, was the one time you should've done your fc nair pillar into grab.
I think you have a very common problem amongst peach mains, which is the tendency to respond to fox by doing something instead of nothing. When I watch your peach, it feels like you're always moving towards him, regardless of who won the last trade. If you get an opening, you chase it instead of going for stage control or positioning.
You try to take space using inappropriate tools: approaching with low FC nair instead of dash attacking, and expecting your aerials to win bad trades with fox. I saw you use groundfloat nair on wakeup, which would work, assuming he's gonna run in and grab you. He was reacting to your wakeup, though, but it was just within range of your dash attack. You need to make him respect that option.
I'm not gonna say you Dsmash too much because you're playing against fox, but a lot of your setups are ineffective and you throw it at some rather silly times. I do like seeing players utilize the fear attached to that move, but it's the same as dash attack- they only respect it if it works.
An example of my points thus far is at 7:00, your last stock of game 2. from the time that you respawn till the rock transformation, you are always on the right ledge, and he has enough center stage control to keep you there. He more or less pecks away at your attempted counterattacks and racks up a whole lot of damage, eventually forcing you off the ledge, where you sweetspot parasol.
(on a side note, this recovery is limited, and this is the point of the set where he begins to figure out how to trade bair with it. You needed to start sweetspotting it out of one of your prior options, but by continuing to do it, you let him further figure it out. Your recovery is good and flexible, but that doesn't mean you can do the same option every time.)
So you're on the ledge, trying to convert it into a kill, but we have to consider what that would require. First thing that comes to mind is a dsmash, which you realize, and do at every opportunity you get. Once you land it, you throw away your positioning, despite him jumping in on you by the ledge for the third or fourth time now. Had you stayed there, with a bit bit of wavedashing, you could bait a landing and get your dsmash or dash attack, putting him off or above the ledge. But you move to center stage to follow him instead. This moving towards is what I'm talking about- you doing something instead of waiting. And because you approach, he wins the trade (fsmashing your groundfloat nair, what I was talking about earlier.) Good **** winning that game, though.
Having watched it all, here's what I have to say:
I kept getting the feeling that you weren't utilizing dash attack to it's full extent in this matchup. You need to USE it. That doesn't mean throw it out at every given opportunity, but it's a tool at your disposal, and it's pretty effective vs fox. I attribute your lack of low percent grabs to your limited use of dash attack. You NEED to use both vs fox because of how they play into one another. You also chaingrabbed in a few situations where I would've dash attack -> uaired, but that's personal preference. He's a lot easier to deal with when he's on the ground, and both uthrow and dash attack achieve that.
Most of the time that he hits you after initiating your pressure, it's because he fullhops out of your fair-dsmash crossup. I'm an advocate of usmash in that situation; just do that instead of dsmashing. You took a lot of damage in this set in this spesific situation.
You lose a lot of trades because you try to use a lowfloat aerial, which you can't CC out of or react and punish. Floating is vulnerable and you need to think more about why you're doing it, or whether or not you're doing it safely. You do this at times when you should be baiting his approach. Hold your ground, run around and get ready to wd away and dsmash/dash attack/grab.
 

Anand

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Xyzz, I think it actually does because hitboxes slightly "trail" you -- you can see this in the gifs in the hitbox threads for aerials, which are done while falling (if you look at like, Fox's nair).
 

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Thanks TIM! I will look into the video while reading your comments. As I said, I feel like I have improved my style since that tournament, however I do not have any recordings of it. I wish I had. But yeah. I really despise the Fox matchup, but there are so many Fox players here, so I have to improve. (I actually picked up Marth about 1,5 years ago and I almost feel like my Marth tackles that matchup way better, but I make my Peach a Fox slayer!) I think the reason I don't use as many dashattacks is because I got majorly screwed by doing it way too much and not mixing it up before. Guess I have to try to find a balance. :)
 

Xyzz

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Xyzz, I think it actually does because hitboxes slightly "trail" you -- you can see this in the gifs in the hitbox threads for aerials, which are done while falling (if you look at like, Fox's nair).
Oh right, they do that. But I'd still say the part that Fox can't really get under a retreating fair with his up smash is the big deal :)
 

Heero Yuy

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Day 10 of Hardcore Execution Training Complete.

Gah, I don't know how many of you people play Brawl, but because I played a few matches with my friend on Brawl, we shifted over to Melee and I didn't play at my full potential (I was, in fact, playing awful). Does anybody else know that feel?
 

WIDL

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I remember when Brawl was new. After playing for a couple of hours and then shifting over to Melee, I noticed I barely wavedashed at all. :p
 

Heero Yuy

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Part of the reason I stay away from Peach in Brawl. I end up maining Link in Brawl, but when I shift over to Melee Link, I suck monkey butt with him. For me, the problem isn't not wavedashing, it's the overall physics of the game plus the recoveries (which are surprisingly better in Brawl). Nevertheless, I personally find Brawl to be more fun of a game.
 

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Well it only makes sense, especially of you are playing the same character. When I play Brawl it's always with Marth, then I come back to Melee and can't space anything with him because the games are so drastically different. But all you have to do is warm up again.

And what exactly is hardcore execution training lol?
 

Heero Yuy

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Oh, lol. My original Melee main was Link and then I switched to Peach about a month ago. I'm trying to train hardcore with her to a highly competitive level like DoH and Armada are. It's just a mini-blog I do on this board, lol.
 
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