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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

Wake

Wake

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Thank you Based Mimi.
However, if you're like me, never go to FD. You will lose 100% of the time, if not more. lol

He does have it too easy! Not only are there like no Puffs for him to worry about, the Sheik MU is easier too! I'm mad.
 
Xyzz

Xyzz

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To quote Sveet: Shine->grab is not a "true combo" it works and beats a lot of things, but it can lose to buffered shield options and fox can shine OoS if hes perfect. Falco's shine is +2 when you factor in the jump cancel, so anything that hits frame 4 or earlier will hit before the grab is active.

Peach nair is active frame 7, so unless you're three frames worse than your opponent, you will beat nair oos.
oh, that was all about Falco shine, and I think fox shine is only at +1, so subtract one frame ;)

@Sheik: I like DL / FD / FoD, but I don't really think it matters that much vs Sheik. DL for living as long as possible, and I've never been in the situation where I thought that I hated Sheik for being able to run away. FD is great for reasons ShroudedOne statetd much better than I ever could. FoD is a personal favourite of mine, dunno, I just like the stage and will pick it when I don't have a better idea :D
 
A

Armada

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Baka: Yeah that's right you can't CC d-smash after a spaced Sheik fair.
And yeah she also can WD OOS from a d-smash to grab/f-tilt you

Me vs Amsah: That set was a really long time ago and yeah it's true that I was sick. But I don't wanna john about that but the fact it was 2,5 years ago is still worth something. I know I would win a rematch. One of the biggest things I never used in that set (if I remember correctly) is to just stand in shield when he was eating up my shield. Now when I wrote yhe last sentence I may have a new idea how a good mixup punish can be.

ShroudedOne: Yeah I wanna play against more Sheiks in NTSC cause I have never been able to take my words back. I did played 4-5 friendlis with M2ks Sheik at Apex and only lost one. But yeah that's friendlis so I don't really count those but I wanna have the chance to battle him again (against M2ks Sheik). Haven't played against KK sience Pound V and then the matches was kinda uneven. But KK has improved a lot and is a world class player now so I would like to play against him in a tournament too cause he is one of the few really good players I haven't faced in a tournament so far.

Pal: I remember back in the middle of 2010 (and before) when I said I thought Peach/Sheik is even and the entire Europe (basically) disagree with me. Now Im back on that track again for sure. Have been thinking about it for a very long time and I think the MU is even in Pal and 60-40 in NTSC. (play this MU daily against a Sheik that handle the MU really well).

Some usefull information I have missed? (don't look into this thread that often)
 
Bones0

Bones0

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Nintendude1189 said:
Well since apparently some friendlies with my Peach were recorded, critique plz?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYlimatkvxo

bones, if you read this, upload the actual tourney set:)
Click to expand...
I didn't record them, I just uploaded them from the Twitch stream. I didn't bother separating our tourney set because I played awful... 'Falco drop zone uairs on YS' awful... :c I'd like to get some friendlies with your ICs at Xanadu if you are going. I'm pretty sure I literally hadn't played an IC main since Zenith 2011 when I played Chu. >_______>

darkatma said:
oh LOL
sorry, Bones's fox is incredibly untechnical then :p
Click to expand...
It definitely wasn't my Fox. :awesome:



Quaz said:
ooo my bad lol. Bones made it sound like to me it was his.
Click to expand...
ShroudedOne said:
@Nintendude: There was one friendliy in the stream recording where Bones was using Peach, and you Fox, I believe, which is what Bones linked to. http://www.twitch.tv/chillindude2/b/331523120 @ 1:47:00
Click to expand...
Nintendude1189 said:
1:47 is doll vs. wenbo. Someone just didn't update the tags on the stream.
Click to expand...
:troll:
 
Xyzz

Xyzz

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I would love to see Armada vs KK as well :)

Some fun things I think we might use better (most certainly nothing remotely new or groundbreaking, but might still be interesting for some)

- Mixups on shield after a float canceled aerial... It's hella convenient to just autopilot fc -> dsmash, but unless we are really consistent with hitting just above the floor and getting everything right, it's somewhat predictable and punishable if we mess up... and there are also times, when downsmash just isn't the best thing we can get out of a situation.
It's certainly a very good option (which I also think I overuse fairly often :x), but i feel it's really worth mixing up between fc > dsmash / grab / jab to either of the before or a 2nd jab / just dash away. Especially just dashing away is fairly underused I think, and can lead to really nice punishes... Aerials OOS are usually not fast enough / don't reach far enough to hit Peach because they can't do dash jumps, so those and whiffed shield grabs can lead to nice dash attacks / whatever we feel like :)
Also, I love the jab if my aerial hits too early, since many people tend to realize that as well, and want to go for some oos option there instead of patiently holding shield, only to be caught by the jab, which tends to screw up their timing and lead to pretty much whatever we feel like.

- messing up the opponents spacing in order to get under aerials is hella amazing, and at least I just recently started to really use this... I think it's really good to be able to do two things that require totally different responses and tend to screw people over when they work out. Moving away might make them whiff, moving in threatens to beat their stuff with nair / bair (their upwards hitboxes are incredible for still being good otherwise).

- Comboing into grabs vs fastfallers is also great. No questions asked on FD probably, but I also really like the stuff we can get from techchases on platforms and pummeling once to upthrow is already almost as much damage as a straight aerial (my favorite things to go for on the side plats: uair to another grab, or fair on outwards techrolls are great). Dunno, I just love the situation (especially on low plats like YS or FoD sometimes)

- fair to turnip toss tends to force neutral get up from CF (and probably many more) at low percents after they miss the tech on the fair knockdown (fair -> turnip -> grab -> chaingrab to seventy'ish -> nair or other aerial shenanigans -> edgeguard is incredibly funny on a fresh CF stock :D)... I am completely unsure whether that one is guaranteed though, but I've gotten the zero to death that way more than once :D
 
A

AustinRC

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Okay so correct me if I'm wrong on this please, people can buffer roll out of shield after having it hit by FC fair/ bair into dsmash right?
 
Xyzz

Xyzz

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Depends, if you're frame perfect you can even catch buffered rolls with fc aerial > grab. With dsmash you hit 2 frames earlier, so you can waste those on not landing on the frame you hit / not hitting dmash precisely after 4 frames of landing lag have passed.
 
Rosedemon

Rosedemon

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I believe Sveet had actual frame data that supported what to do in case of a buffer roll or buffer spot dodge.

Its like a complicated version of rock-paper-scissors.
 
Xyzz

Xyzz

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Buffered spot dodge should be hit by the last downsmash hit :)
Buffered roll loses to jab (hell, if you're literally jabbing as fast as framewise possible you'll lose, because you'll keep him in hit stun and the roll won't start :D), buffered spot dodge loses to jab as well (if they dodge it, you have a big frame advantage, because a single jab is just 16 frames with IASA :D).

Everything they do OOS loses to jab :D
(also: if you feel like it, dashing towards the place they roll to might not be possible on reaction (I can't do it at least), but is probably easily possible if you read it.)
 
A

AustinRC

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idk, I don't really like Jabbing shields. It's not really safe honestly. I mean it sets up for mix ups but meh.....
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

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Jab is primarily meant to catch actions OOS so you can reset and go for a HUGE ENORMOUS damaging play. Like d-smash or grab. It's the most misunderstood part of her pressure AFAIK.
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

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Same here. Maybe if you make them really scared of coming out through conditioning or something, but jab loses hard to shield grab, if they wait in shield for the jab.

@KK: Yeah, you kind of need to have a good feel on when people want to come out of shield vs you, for jab to really be effective.

Personally, I think every Peach should start FC fair > grabbing when they've trapped someone at the ledge, and throwing them off, instead of whatever else it is that we do (which isn't grab). And I also REALLY like the idea of FC fair on shield > dash away, I've been playing with it a bit, and it has some potential. The ability to dash away after an aerial is really useful for baiting.
 
A

AustinRC

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Yeah, I'd be conditioning them. It honestly depends on what they do, first time I'd down smash then see what they do out of it. Get them into the same position again and then go for a read. I see, that makes sense KK. Interesting never thought about using it for that. How fast does jab even come out? *scrolls up to re-check*
 
A

AustinRC

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Just mix up, but it's really not safe on shield. That's how it looks to me personally. JUST SAIYAN! :D
 
Get Low

Get Low

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So I've heard multiple people say something along the lines of, "besides Fox and Falco, Peach is pretty much the only other character that can approach." What do people mean by this? I'm pretty sure every character can approach (except for Marth, lol), and why is Peach added to this short list of characters who can supposedly approach?
 
Chroma

Chroma

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Get Low said:
So I've heard multiple people say something along the lines of, "besides Fox and Falco, Peach is pretty much the only other character that can approach." What do people mean by this? I'm pretty sure every character can approach (except for Marth, lol), and why is Peach added to this short list of characters who can supposedly approach?
Click to expand...
The only place I've seen this is Hax's "Approaching and Jumping are terrible" thread... I think he was just claiming that Peach's FC aerials give her approaching and pressuring options the likes of which only the spacies also have.
 
darkatma

darkatma

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john! said:
i've heard "multiple people" say a lot of other stupid things too... doesn't make them true ;)



try to di away (or at least change up your di) when he uthrows you

i'm pretty sure you can nair/up-b/airdodge out of his followup at most or all percents
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure falcon has autocombos on peach from a grab at all percents actually
just watch mango vs any peach, it makes it look impossible. I got double 3 stocked by mango in falcon peach at the last Rule6, and felt really bad about it till I saw bladewise get JV3'ed, 3 stocked, and 3 stocked in WFs of the WA tourney this past weekend.

But try to DI away, and you'll most likely only eat upairs.


Against dthrow, there's a specific angle that you can do that's in between two joystick corners that lets you airdodge out of the knee, but I don't know this angle.



For the question about why people consider peach one of the few characters with a true approach, they mean that peach is one of the few that has a true advantage on shielded characters. Fox and falco have that advantage because of shine, and peach because of her float cancel.
 
mers

mers

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When Falcon uthrows you, DI straight up. The first uair is unavoidable, but if you go straight up it means Falcon has no forward momentum and so its harder/impossible for him to get any more hits. This assumes you're DIing the uair down and away of course.
 
Xyzz

Xyzz

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Yeah, I totally agree with Wake, I don't see any other use for jab other than catching OOS stuff either (and sincerely hope nobody who is somewhat serious has other ideas about it as well (unless of course he can deliver a good explanation :) )); luckily you can catch literally anything with it (including stuff like Samus up b). Also I've seen many really good players failing at shield grabbing / punishing it in an other way, because it's so fast (IASA frame 16), latest example being Doh jabbing Chillins shield 3 or 4 times in a row :D

CF downthrow: I just try to catch them offguard by mixing up between mainly going for down & away and sometimes using upwards DI... some of them don't react fast enough, I think he can follow up anything... don't know about that airdodge thing, but if it barely avoids the knee, he can easily get an uair ... that's far better of course, but there's literally nothing you can do about the throw... stupid, stupid CF... the only thing that makes him easier than Puff is that we have a great punishment game on him. I still hate him :D

Peach approaching people: well, she's not anywhere close to being a space animal, she lacks a surefire way to back off shields like dair -> shine -> rising retreating aerial. Also spacies are faaaar better at getting in on people, because they are either fast (Fox), or have a unlimited magazine of fast friends that can go in before them (Falco).
But the ability to do stuff on shields is really good on her as well...
Well others can still space / have good mixups anyways. Also if I am not mistaken CF fair is at +2 on shield as well :D
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

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Get Low said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE2IrCFW9uI&feature=plcp

Most insane Peach pressure I've ever seen at 9:38.
Click to expand...
My mind is blown. Sometimes, I get lucky and call rolls like that. Makes me feel like she's broken.

Peach's approaching is generally...meh, unless she has a turnip. But she has tons of advantage on shield. Shield pressure =/= approaching, but no one seems to make this important distinction, so I dunno. We can't just float at people (kind of like how spacies can), but I guess we can approach, with a turnip (which is problematic in an of itself).

What seems to escape people also is that you can be aggressive without necessarily approaching. At least, I think so. Marth/Sheik/Puff can be very aggressive characters.
 
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