VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[The Irish Mafia]

@vs luigi

Just something I need to point out, jfox is giving great advice, but one thing I think he ommitted:
When edgeguarding luigi, always keep him low. Peaches' ledgeguards vs him tend to be dair/fair/nair, but choose wisely. If he di's it up, there's a chance he's actually giving himself more room to recover. Use nair and keep him low.

 

[R3N0]

im picking up peach for reals, and this thread is awesome.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Sup reno

Who do you think is better
you or tope

 

[Teczer0]

im picking up peach for reals, and this thread is awesome.

I'm picking up peach for reals too.

And I agree that this thread is awesome

 

[crismas]

I'm picking up peach for reals too.

I'm asking Steel to change your title to BIG FAT LIAR!

 

[Teczer0]

I'm asking Steel to change your title to BIG FAT LIAR!

Sorry if I don't have super inhuman talent like SOME people CRISMAS!

=(

At least I try

 

[crismas]

Sorry if I don't have super inhuman talent like SOME people CRISMAS!

=(

At least I try

Liessssssssss so many lies, I don't know where to begin. Go in your corner!

LOL okay I'm not adding anything of value to this thread *goes back to lurking*

 

[R3N0]

tope.!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cia]

Lol.. I don't think tope mods here anymore. this is Arc's turf

Vanz help.

Ganon's favor
Battle field
Dreamland
Rainbow cruise
Peach's favor
Fountain of dreams
Toss up
Mute city
Final destination

My level favorites for the match up looks nothing like yours. We will stay arguing MC all day but the rest what do you suggest? I saw you didn't like FoD as Peach which surprised me since low platforms and a stage you can side b recover on sounded ideal for Peach. Let me know what you think. Anyone else is welcome to share their two cents.

The reason ganon likes FoD over Peach is because of his insane Dair. Ganon literally should just take to the platform and go for that cheap Dair combo. Not only that, but because the second Dair grounds her on the platform the tech chase is GUARANTEED. So overall, ganon has the advantage there because he has control.

Now, i like FD vs Ganondorf because he has no where near as much control here. i can space him really well and with no platforms to interrupt, i'm free to combo him forever. Also, i just feel like ganondorf is twice as good on platforms. the wavelands give him tons of speed and lots of tricks. he doesn't have that on FD.

Mute City - I've always felt like Peach had a really nice advantage over ganondorf here because there are no ledges and ganondorf's recovery was crap to start with. I just Fair away and throw stuff. he's going to take massive damage from the stage anyway, so i don't even try to go for combos, just pressure. I drawn this conclusion from my experience against Ganon players on that stage (Kage, Linguini, Oorah etc) None of them seemed really 'phazed' by the stage, but they didn't have a strategy for using it either, they just played it like it was FD. So maybe if there were some ganon players that learned to abuse the stages exploits, I might change my mind. but ATM, i think it's like 65:35 Peach's favor on MC.

Rainbow Cruise - This one is interesting. While I would never counterpick Ganon with this. I don't mind it at all and wouldn't even ban it. This stage is riddled with places where ganondorf can't even recover if i Fair him. (i.e. the pendulum carpet.. lol) I'd like to play a few Ganon vs Peach matches before i make up my mind about this.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Vanz MC we already know how this will go. Peach likes it, I love it. Two hits when we're on the platform and I'm in edge guard position. If we're on a still portion of it you will camp and when the stage begins to move again if you weren't up on the match you are in edge guard position again. No matter how you wanna say what tricks you can do on it, it won't stop me from jumping out and pressuring you when your float is about to be finished. That's why I love MC. If you can't beat me by being 100% aggressive I will win. I was kinda disappointed you picked Fox when we played on that stage. You know who I wanted. This debate could have been over if you just picked Peach. A$$hole.

FoD I would think dairs and dsmash from Peach on such ****ty platforms would give you the edge. Ganons short hop becomes **** at times in that stage cause of the platform height. The dair dair thing you say is true though. Maybe it's cause I just don't like that stage.

FD I agree. I think it's a little even but until I can prove that in a match that will definitely be a Peach stage.

Rainbow cruse mess up your float game. It's why I use it. It's also one of the few stages Ganon can camp back. Peach's double jump isn't near as fast as the other characters so Ganon can hit and run.

Reno I seen a vid of you on Battle field and lawled. I had just got that comment you made at saffron. We should definitely record some matches on that stage. We'll both look so fast until the chain grabbing starts.

 

[JFox]

yea pickin BF vs reno is like putting his sheik into lightning melee while you are still stuck in normal speed. He just gets off with platform play. Judging by what I've seen from you on the platforms tipman, I'm sure u vs reno would be an exciting match there.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Even I play sheik good on BF

 

[Rain(ame)]

I can't believe I read through all of that in one sitting. It's all very useful information. Good stuff, VaNz.

Edit: I also can't forget all the extra useful information from Samo (<3) and JFox (<3). Good stuff.

 

[Woj]

Amazing thread, can't believe this hasn't been stickied yet *ahem*
haha

 

[Cia]

I'm BACK!

Sorry I was away for so long. I added the DK and Link match ups. I tried to be really informative with them so if there's anything i left out, please let me know.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

vans: how do I recover v marth? I got pretty good at airdodging so I don't get fsmashed but I still have trouble with being off the stage v him

 

[Cia]

^ The only thing you can do is mix it up against marth. In theory, Marth can keep Peach off the stage forever. But thanks to human error, we have a small chance to make it back.

The most common return (when coming from the ledge) is Back > Jump > Airdodge. It can be pretty safe if the marth just wants to Fsmash you. But the smart marth's will just wait > Grab > Dash attack/ Fsmash. I also use a few offensive returns like

- Back > Jump > Waveland > Dsmash - This can be really surprising when the only expect you to airdodge. The usually end up shielding it, but it usually pierces. and just like that, you and the Marth switch places.

- Back > Jump > Nair - really simple. Another way of being offensive when your opponent expects airdodge. i don't really care for this one because Marth will just shield grab you like.. 90% of the time. And it has to be L canceled, so chances of escape are really minimal.

- Back > Jump > Turnip toss > Dsmash - This seems to be the safest of the three, but when Marth sees Peach with a turnip in hand, they can usually predict an offensive return, so they just go for the Fsmash right away. Try this only if you're confident in your ability to read the Marth's punish habit. If you have a turnip in hand, i recommend just air dodging more often than not. It usually throws them off.

I don't approve of ledge jumping at all vs Marth. you remain helpless for so long, I can't imagine any Marth letting that work. But i've done this by accident a few times, and my guess is that it was just so unexpected, it worked. So i guess it's not COMPLETELY useless.

 

[JFox]

dont forget the infamous back>jump>toad. get....green stuffed b*tch.

thats actually really bad vs anyone smart btw

 

[The Irish Mafia]

The toad recovery's a twofer, because if you do it once and get back, they'll think you'll do it again.

 

[Cia]

lol.. toad is almost guaranteed to get you ****. I highly doubt Jfox was serious with that post. In fact, he was probably high.

-----

I was looking at some of my old (REALLY old) youtube videos and i noticed that I used to do something that I don't do anymore and i can't think of a reason why. Basically, I used to abuse the Nair's speed by trading or out prioritizing a slow attack. For example, I almost never got Dair'd by Captain Falcon because i'd Nair before he could execute the move. This is probably because I started as an INSANELY aggressive player and since have become more defensive. But i feel like that aspect of my play style is what made my aggression work.

This might sound like a john or w.e But I blame this defensive style on my brief stint in brawl. And I can't help but think that if I'd kept playing melee as I have before Brawl came out, I'd be a completely different player who takes an aggressive Peach pretty far.

The point of all this was to see what everyone thinks of Peach as an aggressive character? I think it really works and anyone can camp with Peach. Her projectile, Float, and lack of speed kind of makes it a given. But I look at Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth. Even frickin Jigglypuff players have many different styles. But I can barely tell different Peach players apart and I think it's because we stick to this 'un-spoken rule' that makes us all look the same.

I was talking to Alukard and he was comparing smash characters to street fighter characters. And when he got to Peach, he said that she's closest to 'Akuma' because she's basically just camp, then bread and butter combo. I was a little offended by this because I'm the only Peach that he plays on a regular basis. so I figured that he'd see something that set me apart, but he didn't. He put me right in that generalization and I can't say I blame him because I'm no where near as fast as I used to be.

Any thoughts on this matter? And more importantly, are there any aggressive Peaches left?

 

[Samochan]

Anything can basically work (cept get up attack and rolling lol, it's an fsmash away from certain doom) against even the smartest marths as long as you mix up and time all your stuff well. I've been jumping and hogging back into something else, jumping and aerial dodging into different directions and different times, jumping and nairing/fairing and my favourite, jumping and toading. I don't recommend more than 3 times in a match and never in same situation lol. =)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njO6hGJGUhE&feature=channel_page 2:47 toad love <3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZLorB1vxiI&feature=channel_page 1:40 Anti-edgeguard toad!

One can even sweetspot with toad on recovery, either normal or fall mode, which is too fun. My fav use of toad is however countering projectiles (falcoooo!) and oncoming attacks I've predicted. Basically fast fall chars or heavier ones need to tech it quickly lest they wanna fall down onto ground helpless. And if anyone is dumb enough to shield it close quarters well... let's just say other shieldbreaking attacks are almost hilarious compared to toad spores. ^^ Toad has suprising range. Real shame it can't be used from shield effectively, needs to be double jump landed. <_<

 

[blast_ssbb]

vanz i blame brawl for everything, including the economy.

i agree u used to be infinitely faster, and its what i used to like about ur peach, the last time i saw u play was vs dj at a no johns so idk how close to that u still r but it was soooo different than i remember. I definitely agree that u could have taken an aggresive peach pretty far if u still played like that, maybe even further than ur current peach because it would be soo different that ud have that surprise factor like ppl who main low tiers have cuz ppl wouldnt know wat to do against u. Thats what makes melee soo great is that even though its old u can make ur char feel original and ur own just by doin a few things differently. idk im just rambling now, i think if ur even considering trying to go back to ur aggresive style i think u should, even if it costs u a few tourney matches at the start, i personally think in the long run it will benefit u moar. and ima try wat u said about nairing the stomp, warriorknight was destroying my peach this weekend :'(

 

[JFox]

vanz, i def wasnt high ya jerk, it was only 8pm when i posted lol. I was kidding around about using the toad, although im not gonna lie i do it once in a while just for laughs, but never in a serious match unless my opponent was extremely predictable.

 

[Heart Break Kid]

yea pickin BF vs reno is like putting his sheik into lightning melee while you are still stuck in normal speed. He just gets off with platform play. Judging by what I've seen from you on the platforms tipman, I'm sure u vs reno would be an exciting match there.

People just have NO clue how to fight him there, its actually pretty easy. Especially if your using Fox.

Reno R3N0 just so he namesearches and gets tight. Lets play sometime this week okay buddy?

 

[crismas]

Benny, let's play soon plz.

Vanz, I think it's good the way you play now, I honestly feel like you've got a nice mixture of both. I mean, you know me I used to play very aggro (stupidly) but I think lately as much style of play continues to change I play aggro or defensive-ish based on match up and person. Like, you mention how you don't use nair's as much anymore, and I really don't either. I use nairs mostly for either edgeguarding, recovering, or to hit people off of platforms. The fast nairs I used to do, I don't do as much and only when really necessary (comboing etc.). IMO I feel like that mixing it up between aggro and defensive within a match is crucial, it's harder for people to read you one way.

Peach as aggro can work well, but only if the person you're fighting against has no idea how to fight it. IDK maybe that's just common knowledge, but nowadays I only go aggro when I see an opening, because they have no way of fighting back. You can be pretty creative with her (and hell, I learned some stuff from Brawl playing her in that game that I brought back into Melee and works).

 

[The Irish Mafia]

@samo: Rolling from the ledge is the best idea ever v marth, actually. The invincibility frames for it last, like, the entire thing. I can't remember the last time I got usmashed by fox from that.


@vans: When I played crismas, she didn't camp much, which I didn't expect, and in the end I got peach aggro'd pretty hard. Armada's pretty offensive too, but he can do whatever he wants and the peach sun still shines out of his 16 year old ***. There's also DancingQueen90 who's aggro, and, well, me, but lets face facts, I suck.

 

[MacD]

@samo: Rolling from the ledge is the best idea ever v marth, actually. The invincibility frames for it last, like, the entire thing. I can't remember the last time I got usmashed by fox from that.

no no no no no, it's soooooooooo easy for marth to punish a roll, and especially if a fox knows you're going to roll, get upsmashed

But about toad, when recovering toad=airdodge. If the marth is waiting for the airdodge and you toad, it's practically the same thing, except you're going to probably get tippered and die. I will sometimes use toad if I ended up low and the marth is going to dtilt so that i can't grab the ledge. I do like toad but it's stilll stupid and dangerous to use.

 

[Samochan]

@samo: Rolling from the ledge is the best idea ever v marth, actually. The invincibility frames for it last, like, the entire thing. I can't remember the last time I got usmashed by fox from that.

Rolling is so very predictable and especially over 100% it's extremely slow, so people then punish from it. Course, I might use under 100% roll way too little, but peki has a tendency to punish that particular ledge getup move with his absurd reaction speed. <_<

 

[crismas]

Rolling never works for me LOL (okay well it works maybe once or twice if I'm lucky) I usually get grabbed immediately.

 

[Cia]

yeah i have to agree that rolling is pretty bad. I play G$ and when ever i roll from the ledge or the get up thing, he tippers me instantly. He says he can tell what i'm going to do by watching her animation. Anything that gets you tippered is bad IMO.

Benny + Cris - thanks alot. I understand what you guys are saying. I guess i probably just adapted because the current metagame requires you to be less aggressive. In any case, I'd still like to get that speed / control again. Back then, i absolutely did not lag. I miss the old days. hahaha

 

[JFox]

i use roll least of all. I wouldnt say its worthless, but almost. the only time its good is if they have already committed to choosing an attack and so u roll past them. if they are sitting there waitin to see what u choose to do, its SOOOOOOO easy and HORRIBLE. Peach LITERALLY does a completely different animation when she is using her roll off the ledge, which is pretty much as bad as me announcing what im about to do before i do it.

in short, just dont use the roll option from the ledge, it blows. use the getup attack if they are dumb and stand too close to the ledge, or if u wanna b risky like me u use if over 100% and hit with the tip of the toe cuz that often catches people off guard (but gets u ****ed if u miss lol). use the jump from the ledge sparingly, and hold back most of those times even when right when u press jump. uhhhhh, yea thats it lol. peach blowws

edit: yeah vanz- hbk eggm jman g$ cactuar and spamerer all know what the animation looks like for her roll off the ledge. (im sure others do too, but those are the people in our area)

 

[Razor]

with peach, i spot dodge more thn i roll. it's a bad habit, but it's pretty good

 

[Cia]

^ I spot dodge like crazy against Marth. It's really embarrassing. But dash dancing scares me.. lol

 

[Samochan]

yeah i have to agree that rolling is pretty bad. I play G$ and when ever i roll from the ledge or the get up thing, he tippers me instantly. He says he can tell what i'm going to do by watching her animation. Anything that gets you tippered is bad IMO.

This.

Ledge animation is the bane of peach. With sheik, you'll never know if sheik'll do ledgeattack, roll or simple rise up, peach should have been the same. :/

 

[blast_ssbb]

yea cris obviously it would be stupid to be 100% aggro all the time, i mean look what happens to shiz everytime he plays m2k :D lol <3 shiz he inspired me to play falco but u cant always be aggro lol. and yea i really really wanna play other ppl besides warriorknight. i think im actually getting pretty beast but i cant tell because warriorknight used to be amazing but now idk he seems less like a boss and more like a mini boss lol, maybe its just cuz im getting better! cris get a place for us to play!

ps. i refuse to do peach dittos i rather just play u wit fox/falco

 

[crismas]

My house, you just gotta make the trek over here (which isn't bad...). Orrr, I'll ask Teco if you can come over to his place and play, I'm heading there this thurs (or maybe tomorrow and thurs?).

And wtf I hate peach dittos, ew. xD

 

[Cia]

since when do you hate Peach dittos!?

they're sooo fun. Just not against Jfox, because he tells me not to use turnip

 

[MacD]

peach dittos are fun as long as you're not playing pink shinobi... unless you're winning and then start camping him, payback's a *****

 

[crismas]

since when do you hate Peach dittos!?

they're sooo fun. Just not against Jfox, because he tells me not to use turnip

lol, I think I started hating them recently. I actually like Peach dittos in brawl, oddly (prlly because we have THE best dittos evar) I think they're so frustrating sometimes. But it depends overall who I'm playing really.

 

[R3N0]

People just have NO clue how to fight him there, its actually pretty easy. Especially if your using Fox.

Reno R3N0 just so he namesearches and gets tight. Lets play sometime this week okay buddy?

you get me so riled up hbk.
i dunno if i can play this week. I'm moving into my apt saturday.. friday afternoon might be available if u wanna make the trip out here to brooklyn.