VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[JFox]

****, that reminds me that i had a MM with linguini andwe never made that happen. IDK why how he got so good vs peach all of a sudden, cuz last time i tried him (about 2 months ago) i found he didnt know the matchup too well. He gave me rust johns tho, so i dunno how accurate those were.

ling, im callin you out. I know ur name searchin, so gimme my $5 mm

 

[Pink Shinobi]

VanZ, if I go to Pound 4...can we do a 200 dollar money match?

 

[Cia]

^ LOL daaaaaamn PS, that's kinda hostile.

i'd rather stick with the $100.00 seeing as how that's probably all i'll be able to put up at one time. But if i win the first and you still want to money match again, i'll do it.

 

[Pink Shinobi]

Yay, but Pound 4 is so far away from California...and it's during the school year. >_< Decisions...

 

[JFox]

that is gonna be the least fun MM you will ever have. Make sure the timer is on, cuz theres no way u will finish if it isnt. With that much money on the line, the both of you might not even make it past the first stock...

 

[DoH]

jfox you're ********. Linguini has always been good against Peach. He probably was rusty or sandbagging, or both.

Maybe he'll just use Roy...

Don't put the timer on vs Pink Shinobi, he'll just run the time out. No timer means you have to actually fight.

 

[JFox]

hmmm, i dont really appreciate being called ******** because I failed to see what was so special about linguini´s vs peach game. Like i said, he could have just been rusty...or maybe my style did better for some reason than yours. Regardless, I dont like being talked down to as if you have any right to call me names.

 

[Kouryuu]

Jfox it's not that serious.

Yay, but Pound 4 is so far away from California...and it's during the school year. >_< Decisions...

It's during winter session. You have to go Paul! I'm gonna try my best to go too.

You guys have no idea how good Paul is, whether it's against Peach or not.

 

[JFox]

Yes but you have no idea how good Vanz is. Id say I have a pretty good idea of both players. Id prob say its somewhere around this-

Armada
Cort/Vidjo
Xelic/Pink Shinobi/Vwins
Wife/Vanz

Regardless, I think Vanz puts a lot of faith in his peach ditto game even if overall pink shinobi is better.

 

[Cia]

Yeah, i'm extremely confident in the ditto. But my other chars **** Peach harder. So.. yeah :D

and for like the past month, I've been ****** in tri-state w/ puff. But MaNg0 already has the puff thread

Also.. daaaaaaaaamn. when i look at that list, i feel like such trash

-----

anyway, someone brought up an interesting point. That melee Peaches are starting to look like Brawl Peaches. With the Extreme Spacing / Camping / Lack of Full Stock combos. Thoughts?

 

[JFox]

I have no idea what brawl peach looks like tbh, but those things you mentioned are all less true today then they were in the past imo. Back in the day people used to play a lot more campy with peach, ie players like doll and vidjo. Then people like you, and XIF started pillaring all peoples heads. Then outta the blue comes armada doin crazy combos against our top of the line players (have u seen that 3 hit death turnip combo armada did?).

Peach isnt really the type of character that has many good combos. She always has been extreme spacing, camping and lack of full stock combos. If anything people today are pushing those boundaries as hard as possible to make the best of her capabilities.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

One thing that argues van's point is armada. (hopping on the armada's **** train) Pretty much, one thing he showed me I overlook is the low percent uair. If you watch him, when the uair lands, you know someone's about to get peach combo'd.

When it comes to full-stock combos, really all we have is cort doing some wack **** and epic ledgeguards. All characters should be spaced extremely, it's just that that's very important for peach, and counting that as a deforming attribute to her metagame is not good.

Camping with peach= gay. I am refering to turnip camping when I say that, and turnip camping alone. IMO, camping with peach is really just dragged out spacing, that ***** is so slow. Really, all the camping peach has is dd camping, which isn't the best idea because what the hell are you gonna do out of it? Also she has float camping, which, as I see it, is more baiting than camping. Then turnip camping which will probably hurt you more than help you because it takes a long *** time to pull and throw, and she is so god**** slow.



TLDR Spacing= good
combos= sex
camping= spacing/gay

 

[Pink Shinobi]

Camping is fun with Peach. Cuz usually you can't camp with her cuz tournaments are full of spacies, marths, sheiks, and falcons.

Hey VaNz, I've got a question! Can peach really float above falco's shl while dodging all of his sh aerials (thas wut mango tellz me) ? I can't figure out the height, esp since I don't have many sparring buddies at my university. T_T You have any videos? Armada just kind of power shields the lazerz...which I don't really wanna learn.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

You would say that, shinobi

 

[JFox]

Camping is fun with Peach. Cuz usually you can't camp with her cuz tournaments are full of spacies, marths, sheiks, and falcons.

Hey VaNz, I've got a question! Can peach really float above falco's shl while dodging all of his sh aerials (thas wut mango tellz me) ? I can't figure out the height, esp since I don't have many sparring buddies at my university. T_T You have any videos? Armada just kind of power shields the lazerz...which I don't really wanna learn.

Im not sure if thats a serious question w/e ill answer it anyway for anyone who wants a quick lesson

If you float at the top of your jump, you will be above the platform. So basically you wanna have your head poking thru the platform so that you can still fall down with a FC. From that height the only thing falco can hit u with is sh uair, which is risky and pointless for him so dont worry to much about it.

heres a vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCiY1f6_zQw

 

[ArcNatural]

One thing that argues van's point is armada. (hopping on the armada's **** train) Pretty much, one thing he showed me I overlook is the low percent uair. If you watch him, when the uair lands, you know someone's about to get peach combo'd.

When it comes to full-stock combos, really all we have is cort doing some wack **** and epic ledgeguards. All characters should be spaced extremely, it's just that that's very important for peach, and counting that as a deforming attribute to her metagame is not good.

Another thing that amazed me about Armada when you watch, is not only his spacing vs his opponent, but his spacing between where he lands. Many of his combos come from how well he sets up his aerials according to this (like his dash attack -> jump float upair cancel on platform -> fulljump fair that he did on battlefield in one of the genesis matches (can't find which one atm).

With most characters this is sort of natural, but Peach is impressive because she is kinda slow in the air and with float. Very impressive that even in tons of pressure he can maintain vertical and horizontal spacing that well for combos.

 

[Kouryuu]

Out of curiosity Vanz, what Peach players have you beaten [with Peach] in tournament?

I'm actually surprised Xelic is not on the list of players who do best vs Peach with Peach in the OP since he's arguably the best at Peach ditto's.

 

[DoH]

hmmm, i dont really appreciate being called ******** because I failed to see what was so special about linguini´s vs peach game. Like i said, he could have just been rusty...or maybe my style did better for some reason than yours. Regardless, I dont like being talked down to as if you have any right to call me names.

You did lose to the Roy that I 4 stocked. On Mute City.

 

[Cia]

Camping is fun with Peach. Cuz usually you can't camp with her cuz tournaments are full of spacies, marths, sheiks, and falcons.

Hey VaNz, I've got a question! Can peach really float above falco's shl while dodging all of his sh aerials (thas wut mango tellz me) ? I can't figure out the height, esp since I don't have many sparring buddies at my university. T_T You have any videos? Armada just kind of power shields the lazerz...which I don't really wanna learn.

HAHA.. i completely agree. I'm surprised MaNg0 would know about that. But yeah the height is pretty much just under the height of Peach's full jump. I very recently got good at abusing it (like a week ago) so i didn't really elaborate when i said to float camp. At that float height, Lasers and SH Bairs/ Nairs will go right under you. So you can just drop a fair on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nljv8Ou929c <-- 1:40 , that float > Fair is the height. hope that helps.

Kouryuu - tristate doesn't have many Peach users at ALL. and the one's we do have never use peach against me =[ I've beaten only Jfox.. (I lost to Cort a while back, and Wife a few months ago). I've beaten Wife in a money Match, and Vwins in multiple friendlies at RoM (not losing a game except to his sheik.. lol) Other than that, I've beat P.c and M2K a few times. But yeah.. not many peaches =/.
-----

I'm going off to play Jman like.. right now. I pray to god that he camps my balls off and it gets recorded.

 

[JFox]

You did lose to the Roy that I 4 stocked. On Mute City.

LOL, should I be ashamed of this? What roy practice could I possibly have? Meanwhile you guys live in the same state. People talk like sethlon is bad or something, Im not sure why still. We all have our strong and weak matchups, i happen to know nothing about roy...

I refuse to bring up dirt about you cuz then this turns into a ***** fight. Just do me a favor and keep your mouth shut.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

DoH & Jfox


do you two mind taking a few seconds out of your day to stop trying to slap each other with your *****
it's ****ing bull****

 

[MacD]

HAHA.. i completely agree. I'm surprised MaNg0 would know about that. But yeah the height is pretty much just under the height of Peach's full jump. I very recently got good at abusing it (like a week ago) so i didn't really elaborate when i said to float camp. At that float height, Lasers and SH Bairs/ Nairs will go right under you. So you can just drop a fair on it.

mango knows a lot about like all characters and match ups and stuff, he keeps bugging me to use up tilt and i'm like that move is trash

i use it in friendlies the other day for fun, it out prioritized foxes dair, i was like wtf and all mango had to say was i told you it's good

but with falco, idk why he'd short hop you if you're floating that high, maybe it's cause i don't get much falco practice except against zhu but he'd just jump into me with his arieal or shine or whatever he'd do

and ganon is stupid, what should i do if he is spacing his fair -> jab on my shield, just roll away like against falcon

 

[Pink Shinobi]

camp the ganon. simple.

 

[Kouryuu]

mango knows a lot about like all characters and match ups and stuff, he keeps bugging me to use up tilt and i'm like that move is trash

i use it in friendlies the other day for fun, it out prioritized foxes dair, i was like wtf and all mango had to say was i told you it's good

I told Mango about how Peach's uptilt out prioritizes Fox's Dair, though I doubt he'd remember it lol.

Vanz, if you can compete or even take a couple of rounds off of M2K's or PC's Peach then you must be good in ditto's.

 

[soap]

you can't say he lost to some roy and not mention that it was sethlon lol

 

[Cia]

what should i do if he is spacing his fair -> jab on my shield

you want to wavedash back to avoid the fair completely. pull turnip, then use the Turnip > Fair approach. pay attention to the Ganon's jump. If he oversoots the Fair, just run under him. Pretty much like Pink Shinobi said, camp him. Ganon's gay as hell =[

 

[JFox]

it may just be cuz i completely suck at camping, but i always found far more success when I aggro´d ganon.

I always move into his territory with turnips, but once im in i just keep as much pressure as I can. When I play as ganon, i always find its very hard to regain composure after being hit around, so i try to keep on him (watch out for down b tho, ganons seem to like getting out of trouble with down b). If i lose him, i run buck and pull a quick turnip and attempt to start all over.

I feel pretty comfortable using heavy shield pressure on ganon, and often use nair on the front of ganon´s shield and then move into the back of his shield. Hes pretty tall so it doesnt take long before ur able to shieldstab him with dsmash. Like vanz says in the op, u can combo real heavy vs ganon. Dtilt is amazing, uairs can combo, tech chase dsmash (or nair at high percent).

Try to make sure as much as possible that u are in control of the midfield and he is stuck on the sides. Your goal is to just hit him with anything that will force him to use up b. If they go low and up b, use dair to nair. If they go high, i like bair personally cuz it has more range than nair and ganons always do that go in towards the stage and then pull out towards the ledge nonsense. Dont worry about going for a big hit all the time, just make sure u keep him off the stage once hes off. If they fly high up, they almost def are gonna use wizards foot at least once. Try to pin a turnip at the spot where the wizards foot is going to end (dont throw turnips down, just use dair nair).

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Vanz: 2 questions
1. The dsmash. I believe it is 2 things: 1, a low-percent damage builder, and 2, a spacing / placing move. Some people use it as a kill move, but I consider this unwise.
2. Yoshi's story. I know this is said to be a bad peach stage, but I like it. I think the close blast boxes make the dsmash a killing move, and much more effective. Your opinion?

 

[Cia]

^ I consider the Dsmash to be a kill move a majority of the time, but it depends on the match up. due to the relatively low angle it sends your opponent, it often makes it so that characters like falco, Falcon, sheik, fox, can't come back. So it doesn't necessarily have knock them into the blast zone. but i don't consider it a kill move against like.. peach, puff and Ganon.

Also, YS is a great stage for Peach. But i don't recommend it too often because too many opponents gain more advantages than Peach does. ex. Falco's Shine > Shine. Shine > Shine > FIREFOX! or Ganon's 80 - 90% Dair kills =/

----

Right now, I'm in this weirdo limbo where i'm not quite sure what i should be banning against fox. A part on me wants to ban YS, but a lot of the good foxes have that ledge hop > wave land dependency. and it's one of the few times you really get to plan ahead against him. then the other part of me, want's to Ban Dreamland because its camp city.

 

[kirbstir]

Id prob say its somewhere around this-

Kirbstir

Armada
Cort/Vidjo
Xelic/Pink Shinobi/Vwins
Wife/Vanz

Fixed.

Also, ban PS against Fox.

 

[Kouryuu]

Right now, I'm in this weirdo limbo where i'm not quite sure what i should be banning against fox. A part on me wants to ban YS, but a lot of the good foxes have that ledge hop > wave land dependency. and it's one of the few times you really get to plan ahead against him. then the other part of me, want's to Ban Dreamland because its camp city.

I know what you mean. I usually ban PS against Fox but nowadays, I find myself banning Dreamland (only against really good Fox players though). Sure, the stage benefits Fox in ways it benefits Peach but at least you know you aren't going to get camped. And that alone says a lot.

That's just my preference anyway.

 

[Xelyst]

is a>a>dashA practical (in terms of safety) or will i usually loose the poke game with most chars or get shield grabbed from my dashA?..

if it does work then on which chars and what %?

just random things im thinking

 

[The Irish Mafia]

About dreamland, I usually don't consider it a good cp vs fox or falco. While it seems like a good cp (it's ****ing peachland), both the spacie's primary kill moves are designed to kill downwards, and the floor is very, very low on that stage. It tends to hurt more than help. If I were to say one stage to ban against fox, I'd say battlefield. He's just going to get you off the stage and then the ledge is going to be stupid and he'll be usmashing you and i hate that stage.

I think this raises a question: what is the best stage for peach? also, what is peaches best neutral vs fox? vs other high tiers?

 

[JFox]

I personally love FD as a neutral stage vs anyone but Marth or ICs. A lack of platforms doesnt really hurt peach, and many characters depend heavily on them to approach or combo. For example, sheik/ganon love to depend on platforms to approach. Falco and fox combo there a lot. Falcon likes FD for the same reasons as peach, but I find that the CG throws FD slightly in peach´s favor. CG vs fox and falco is also ****, lol. A lack of platforms makes it so that your opponent has a hard time running from you, an option that many people tend to use when fighting peach. People tend to use platforms to recover (ie fox, falco, falcon, sheik, ganon, etc) or to get themselves out of a juggle situation.

So yea, I like FD lol. Vs marth and ICs, I like to use the platforms to retreat if necessary/get out of juggles.

 

[Pink Shinobi]

Hey VaNz,

Is Brinstar that good vs Spacies? I personally don't like the stage because of the slimy stuff and its big. I know how puff plays there, but how would a peach benefit? I mean, most of the time mute city will be banned...so I needed a super counter vs Fox/Falco.

 

[Woj]

Awesome thread Vanz, really helpful.
thanks

 

[Cia]

is a>a>dashA practical (in terms of safety) or will i usually loose the poke game with most chars or get shield grabbed from my dashA?..

if it does work then on which chars and what %?

just random things im thinking

Good Question. it's safe IF the second jab hits and the opponent gets stun. and Against Falcon, Fox, Falco and Ganon, it can lead to Uair strings. I use this against all characters (provided that my jabs hit) because even if it doesn't combo, it leaves your opponent in a vulnerable position and could force them to use their second jump. I'm going to make a note of this in the OP.

About dreamland, I usually don't consider it a good cp vs fox or falco. While it seems like a good cp (it's ****ing peachland), both the spacie's primary kill moves are designed to kill downwards, and the floor is very, very low on that stage. It tends to hurt more than help. If I were to say one stage to ban against fox, I'd say battlefield. He's just going to get you off the stage and then the ledge is going to be stupid and he'll be usmashing you and i hate that stage.

I think this raises a question: what is the best stage for peach? also, what is peaches best neutral vs fox? vs other high tiers?

I thought about banning battlefield at first. (I really don't care for that stage) but Fox/Falco have really limited recovery options to avoid going under the stage. So less tricky angles = more edge guarding opportunities. they have an abnormally high risk of being gay'd by the level.

To answer your questions more specifically, her best Neutral vs Fox (and pretty much overall) is Final Destination. It's layout make's fox less mobile and the chain grabbing is too good to pass up. Fountain of dreams and PKMN stadium after. (because of the exploitable platforms.)

Hey VaNz,

Is Brinstar that good vs Spacies? I personally don't like the stage because of the slimy stuff and its big. I know how puff plays there, but how would a peach benefit? I mean, most of the time mute city will be banned...so I needed a super counter vs Fox/Falco.

Yeah, I prefer it over Mute City. The Stage's odd terrain kills their approaches/ combos. and the membranes ruin their L cancels. Basically, this stage brings upon more mistakes for Peach to punish. And the acid combos are a huge plus. Another thing, more people don't know Brinstar's pattern (surprisingly) so if you learn this, you can plan ahead and put yourself where you need to be.

* I also have this trick on Brinstar that can drastically alter the game. Peach can divide the stage (break the membranes) with Low Dair > Dsmash or 2 Dsmashes. So when your opponent is respawning, just stand there and break the membranes. 80% of the time, your opponent will try to drop down and attack you right away. So they just fall to their death. I've used this 'successfully' sooo many times. It's worked against Kage, Jman, Bum, Chinesahh, and people i can't even remember. So it's worth trying out =D

I know what you mean. I usually ban PS against Fox but nowadays, I find myself banning Dreamland (only against really good Fox players though). Sure, the stage benefits Fox in ways it benefits Peach but at least you know you aren't going to get camped. And that alone says a lot.

That's just my preference anyway.

Yeah, i'm actually really comfortable fighting Fox on Pokemon Stadium although i don't really care for Mountain Terrain. The main setting of the stage is sooo good. The fact that there are side platforms but no Top platform makes it so that you get all the benefits of Peach's platform tech chase game, but no top platform for Fox to camp on.

Also, on the Mountain Terrain. Peach can really abuse the right side of the stage. (The Small area w/ incline) If you ground your opponent, Peach can INFINITELY tech chase with Fair. It just seems to keep knocking him into that incline where there's some kind of weird wall they can't pass. So just Float, and punish your opponent's response w/ Fair. *This worked on Fox and Sheik when I tried it.

Woj - Thanks, glad it helps =]

 

[Heart Break Kid]

* I also have this trick on Brinstar that can drastically alter the game. Peach can divide the stage (break the membranes) with Low Dair > Dsmash or 2 Dsmashes. So when your opponent is respawning, just stand there and break the membranes. 80% of the time, your opponent will try to drop down and attack you right away. So they just fall to their death. I've used this 'successfully' sooo many times. It's worked against Kage, Jman, Bum, Chinesahh, and people i can't even remember. So it's worth trying out

Lol this reminds me of Starz because everytime a Peach took him to Brinstar the first thing he'd do was firefox the membranes to split the stage. He'd then proceed to laser camp you until the stage came back together.

Haha f*cking starz. Guy loved his lasers. Which later turned to him loving his Pikmin in brawl

 

[JFox]

* I also have this trick on Brinstar that can drastically alter the game. Peach can divide the stage (break the membranes) with Low Dair > Dsmash or 2 Dsmashes. So when your opponent is respawning, just stand there and break the membranes. 80% of the time, your opponent will try to drop down and attack you right away. So they just fall to their death. I've used this 'successfully' sooo many times. It's worked against Kage, Jman, Bum, Chinesahh, and people i can't even remember. So it's worth trying out =D

I remember watchin you do this to G-reg at VLS

 

[The Irish Mafia]

jab jab dash attack was the original irish shield pressure lol
You have no idea how well it worked
they always roll after the jabs

To what shinobi was saying, good timing with the dsmash can lead to them hitting the sweetspot of your dsmash and getting a 5 hit chain at, like. 50 percent. Brinstar is my regular cp, as most people don't know what the hell is going on there

As to the "expolitable platforms" on PKMN stadium and FoD, what do you mean by that?