Official v8.0.0 Patch Discussion Thread

[shrooby]

It's been 3000 years five months.

Here is the patch notes thread:

https://smashboards.com/threads/v8-0-0-patch-notes.505849/

We will hand out large warnings and/or temporary bans to those who stifle this process of patch exploration
Some examples include
1. Posting false changes, good intentions or not.
2. Asking if anything has changed when the patch notes are there for you to read.
3. Immature behavior and complaining over the patch changes.

When checking changes, remember that Ultimate has many different damage multipliers.

• Percent values taken from proper matches (non-training mode) have scaling adjustments based on it's current freshness; a 1% difference seen in a match may not be a real patch change and should be double checked before being posted.
• For aerials remember that aerials performed during a short hop have a x0.85 damage multiplier.
• Moves deal more damage (x1.2) in 1v1s matches than in matches with more than two players. This multiplier also applies to Training Mode.

~~~~~~~~~

What Nintendo's official patch notes terms mean:

• "Attack speed" - Startup
• "Power" / "Attack power" - Damage
• "Attack range" - Hitbox size
• "Launch distance" - Base knockback (BKB) and/or Knockback growth (KBG)*
• "Launch angle" - Knockback angle
• "Undamaged launch distance" - Base knockback (BKB)
• "Vulnerability" - Endlag / First active frame (FAF)
• "Vulnerability when Landing" - Landing lag
• "Landing time" - Aerial auto-cancel window
• "Time until launched opponents can move" - Hitstun
• "Hitstun time" - Hitlag
• "Hitstun Shuffle Distance" - SDI multiplier
• "Super armor" - Damage-based armor or knockback-based armor
• "invincibility" - invulnerability frames
• "Hit detection" - Active frames
• "Easier to hit multiple times" - Made hits of a multi-hit move link more reliably

*Nintendo does not always specify if both BKB and KBG have been changed or just one of them when using the term "launch distance."

 

[shrooby]

Nintendo's Patch Notes in Japanese:
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/support/switch/software_support/aaab/detail/800_fighter.html

 

[Untouch]

WFT confirmed changes:
USmash -> Frame 11 down from frame 14.
Sun Salutation -> Does more knockback.
FAir -> Less landing lag and endlag.
DSmash -> Less endlag.
Down Tilt -> New angle.

Unconfirmed changes:
Header -> Ball is bigger? Wasn't mentioned in the notes but the discord is saying it is.

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo:

Shadow Ball uncharged does increased damage (4.8% in 1v1 without fresh move bonus). It also can shoot the Shadow Ball out of a charging pose faster, and has less recovery on the move.

Back air and up air have increased hitboxes, it looks like. Teleport has less landing lag. Down throw recovers more quickly (can down throw jab DK at 0%).

Incineroar: Improved frame data on grabs. Standing grab is now frame 7 instead of 8.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

English patch notes

 

[S_B]

Some solid KKR buffs, but I must say I'm once again sorry for Little Mac mains. Minor improvements to teching and get up attack? Blech...

I feel like Mac is an edge case where it's obvious to everyone that he's hurting but the devs refuse to touch him for some reason. I never play as him but I'll cheer when they finally give him some love.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm liking the looks of this patch, it seems like the relatively long length of time from the last patch gave them plenty of time to figure out who's good and who's not. I don't see anything on the list of changes that I really disagree with, and finally a lot of the people who need help like and are finally getting it. The lack of changes to Mac and Jiggs is regrettable, but hopefully they'll be in the next round.

 

[zumaddy]

Marth, Captain Falcon, DDD, Corrin and Kirby getting the buffs they deserve!

Some solid KKR buffs, but I must say I'm once again sorry for Little Mac mains. Minor improvements to teching and get up attack? Blech...

I feel like Mac is an edge case where it's obvious to everyone that he's hurting but the devs refuse to touch him for some reason. I never play as him but I'll cheer when they finally give him some love.

Unfortunately I believe it's the same reason they haven't touched Ganondorf; over-buffing would lead to complete dominance of lower-skilled players due to the Wifi. A good Little Mac like a good Ganondorf would demolish players who already struggle with playing on top of lag.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I was expecting them to just increase tipper damage, but they actually made them work better. Shame about certain characters only getting their FS buffed. (Gee I wonder why I'd find that disappointing)

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I'll just leave these here:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[blackghost]

bayonetta uptilt is down to frame 7 instead of frame 9.
heel slide one looks unchanged. heel slide plus kick is safer.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

shrooby
Patch changes

Spoiler: 7.0 to 8.0

• Dash Attack total frames 59 -> 51
• D-Smash startup 10 -> 7
  • total frames 53 -> 50
• F-air second hit base damage 3.0 -> 4.0
  • final hit base damage 5.0 ->6.0

• Dash attack total frames 37 -> 34
• Down B (grounded) startup 15 -> 13
  • total frames 70 -> 68
  • total frames when flying past a ledge 67 -> 65
• Down B (air) startup 16 -> 14
  • Total frames 58 -> 56

• Down tilt startup 10 -> 8
  • total frames 31 -> 29
• Usmash first hit active frames 7-9 -> 7-12
  • Second hit active frames 13-18 -> 13-20
• N-air final hit on frame 19 -> 17
  • total frames 48 -> 46
• D-air total frames 51 -> 43
  • landing lag 14 -> 12
• Side B (grounded) startup active frames 18-24 -> 13-22 (in other words, starts up 5 frames faster, has 3 more hit frames
  • total frames 55 -> 50
• Side B (air) active frames 18-24 -> 18-27

• B-air medium range hit base damage 11.0 -> 12.0
  • farthest range hit base damage 9.0 -> 11.0
• Down throw total frames 45 -> 41
• Neutral B (from charging state) startup 9 -> 4
  • total frames 31 -> 27
  • Minimum damage 2.5 -> 4.0
• Neutral B (full charge) startup 18 -> 16
  • total frames 43 -> 39
• Up B landing lag 30 -> 20
  • animation length unchanged if you finish the move with feet on the ground

• F-air total frames 45 -> 39
• Neutral B strong (12.0%) hit active frames 12-21 -> 12-25

/

• U-air startup 12/15/18/21/24 -> 10/13/16/19/22
  • total frames 49 -> 40
• Down B total frames 49-129 -> 39-124
  • It now takes 18 frames to put down the shields instead of 23. So to recap: endlag reduced by 5 under all circumstances, Pit can begin putting down the shields 5 frames sooner than he could before, for a total of 10 less total frames on minimum usage.
• Couldn't find anything different with getup attack (face up or face down)

• F-air base damage 11.5 -> 13.0
  • total frames 59 -> 51
• Up B (grounded) first hit can no longer clank

• Tech roll forward and backward total frames 39 -> 40

• F-tilt late hit on frame 13-14 -> 13-16
• D-Smash startup 9/14 -> 7/12
  • total frames 52 -> 50
  • second hit active frames 14-14 -> 12-13 (in other words, it has one more active hit frame)

• U-tilt close hit base damage 10.0 -> 11.5
  • far hit base damage 8.0 -> 9.5
• Neutral B begins inhaling opponents 17 -> 14
  • begins inhaling projectiles/objects 20 -> 17
  • minimum total frames 77 -> 74

• U-tilt Arm and head intangibility on frames 7-25
• U-Smash multihits base damage 1.0 -> 1.5
  • final hit base damage 4.0 -> 4.5
• D-air startup 14 -> 11
  • total frames 45 -> 42
• Down B plant total frames 43 -> 38
  • water total frames 54 -> 49

• Tech roll forward and backward total frames 39 -> 40

• U-Smash startup 14 -> 11
  • Invulnerable on frame 12-15 -> 9-12
  • total frames 57 -> 54
• D-Smash total frames 51 -> 46
• F-air total frames 38 -> 35
  • landing lag 9 -> 7

• Tech roll backward total frames 39 -> 40
  • tech roll forward unchanged
• couldn't find anything different with getup attacks

• tech roll forward and backward total frames 39 -> 40

• tech roll forward and backward total frames 39 -> 40

• F-smash tipper base damage 15.2 -> 16.7
  • Tipper shieldstun 10 -> 17
  • Close and medium range shieldstun 8 -> 13
• F-air base damage 7.5 -> 9.0
• B-air base damage 11.0 -> 12.0
• U-air base damage 9.0 -> 10.0
• Side B (air) total frames 41 -> 37
• Side B Pin Jump total frames 39 -> 29

• F-tilt 3 total frames 42 -> 39
• U-tilt startup 9/15 -> 7/13
  • total frames 31 -> 29
  • second hit active frames 15-15 -> 13-15 (in other words, two active hit frames were added)
• F-Smash active hit frames 18-19 -> 18-20
• Side B (grounded) total frames 71 -> 66
  • Hold version total frames 72 -> 67

• Down B success initial damage 40.0 -> 45.0

• dash attack strong hit frames 7-11 -> 7-14
• U-Smash sweetspot base damage 15.0 -> 17.0

• dash attack startup 9 -> 7
  • total frames 41 -> 39
• U-tilt total frames 32 -> 29
• U-Smash startup 11/16 -> 9/14
  • total frames 47 -> 45
• D-air startup 14 -> 11
  • total frames 45 -> 42

• Grab startup 8 -> 7
  • total frames 38 -> 37
• Dash Grab startup 12 -> 11
  • total frames 46 -> 45
• Pivot Grab startup 13 -> 12
  • total frames 44 -> 43
• side B startup 18 -> 16
  • total frames 59 -> 57
• Down B (no activation) total frames 53 -> 49

• U-tilt Startup 8 -> 6
  • total frames 28 -> 26
• D-Smash startup 12/16 -> 10/14
  • total frames 45 -> 43
• F-air startup 10 -> 7
  • total frames 47 -> 44
• U-air base damage 8.0 -> 10.0

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Looks like a lot of Final Smashes got buffed. I wonder if that applies to metered and Smash Ball versions or just the latter.

 

[MetaWeegee]

-Sees got a lot of delicious buffs
-Sees that they didn't do anything about his dash

They were so close to perfection...

Anyways, pretty cool patch. Nice to see more "not quite there" characters git some of that "good good".

 

[S_B]

Don't know the exact number yet, but KKR's new belly armor has between 36 and 44%, as he can take a warlock punch but not a reversed warlock punch (which deals 44%).

I'm guessing 40% as that's a nice round number but it could be 42% if the balancing team has a Hitchhiker's Guide fan or two on staff.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I’ve come to the conclusion that someone on the Smash team really has it out for Doc. They gave him one (admittedly nice) kill conform and decided that magically fixed all of his other flaws.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I’ve come to the conclusion that someone on the Smash team really has it out for Doc. They gave him one (admittedly nice) kill conform and decided that magically fixed all of his other flaws.

It just must be hard to rebalance him when his increased power and lower speed was done the lazy way, by equipping him with +attack -speed equipment, even after equipment is gone.

 

[Ffamran]

shrooby
Patch changes

Spoiler: 7.0 to 8.0

• Down tilt startup 10 -> 8
  • total frames 31 -> 29
• Usmash first hit active frames 7-9 -> 7-12
  • Second hit active frames 13-18 -> 13-20
• N-air final hit on frame 19 -> 17
  • total frames 48 -> 46
• D-air total frames 51 -> 43
  • landing lag 14 -> 12
• Side B (grounded) startup active frames 18-24 -> 13-22 (in other words, starts up 5 frames faster, has 3 more hit frames
  • total frames 55 -> 50
• Side B (air) active frames 18-24 -> 18-27

Regarding Up Smash, would it be safe to assume that the second hit's invincibility frames were increased to match its new active frames? Also its first hit's active frames were 7-12 before 8.0.0 according to the Japanese spreadsheet and KuroganeHammer.

Falco's page on the Japanese spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=609586896. Currently still on its September 14, 2019 version.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

shrooby
Some additional notes that may be worth mention

D-Smash charge hold frame is now 2 (used to be 4), and leg intangibility frames are now frame 3-11 (used to be 5-14)

• N-air autocancels on frame 41 onward (from 43)
• U-Smash leg intangibility on frame 7-20 (was 7-18)

/ U-air autocancels on frame 35 onward (from 37)

D-air autocancels on frame 36 onward (from 39)

• U-Smash charge hold frame is now 6 (used to be 7)
• D-air autocancels on frame 36 onward (from 39)

• U-tilt head intangibility on frame 6-13 (was 8-15)
• F-air autocancels on frame 39 onward (from 42)

Regarding Up Smash, would it be safe to assume that the second hit's invincibility frames were increased to match its new active frames? Also its first hit's active frames were 7-12 before 8.0.0 according to the Japanese spreadsheet and KuroganeHammer.

Falco's page on the Japanese spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=609586896. Currently still on its September 14, 2019 version.

That's a yes on two more I frames for the second kick, but I could not get the first kick to register on frames 10,11, or 12 when I tested pre-patch. And I don't have the capability of double checking now.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

shrooby
Smash Ultimate Data Viewer just updated all the changes via raw code.

Take a look.

 

[Methacrylate]

Corrin changes from Ruben's data dump. dmg is the base damage. The final smash memory changes impacted the memory of DFS and DFB as well so they applied the final smash memory changes to neutral b as well.

fair
dmg: 7.5 > 9
KBG: 99 > 87
(change to all 3 hitboxes of the move)

bair
dmg: 11 > 12
(there is no knockback change even though it was stated in patch notes)
(only on sweetspot hitbox)

uair
dmg: 9 > 10
KBG: 99 > 97
(supposed extended launch distance but KBG actually decreased)
(changed to all 3 hitboxes of uair)

fsmash (tipper 1) <- the old tipper hitbox
dmg: 15.2 > 16.700001
Y: 0.0 > -0.4
Z: 0.0 > 0.4
Y2: 0.0 > -0.4
Z2: 0.0 > 0.4

fsmash (tipper 2) <- A newly added hitbox for tipper
all parameters identical to tipper 1 except positioning
X=-12.5, Y=0.4, Z=-0.4, X2=-0.5, Y2=0.4, Z2=-0.4

fsmash (tipper 1 and 2)
added ShieldstunMultiplier=1.6

DLFK
KBG: 90 > 98
only on sweetspot hitbox (sourspot not effected)

DLFB
KBG: 90 > 98
only on sweetspot hitbox (early hitbox and sourspot not effected)

Final Smash
LERP Ratio change

DFS (changes to both grounded and aerial codes)
LERP Ratio change
Memory position change

DFB (changes to both grounded and aerial codes)
LERP Ratio change
Memory position change

 

[Linkshot]

Corrin changes from Ruben's data dump. dmg is the base damage. The final smash memory changes impacted the memory of DFS and DFB as well so they applied the final smash memory changes to neutral b as well.

bair
dmg: 11 > 12
(there is no knockback change even though it was stated in patch notes)
(only on sweetspot hitbox)

uair
dmg: 9 > 10
KBG: 99 > 97
(supposed extended launch distance but KBG actually decreased)
(changed to all 3 hitboxes of uair)

Damage is used as part of the knockback growth formula, so to clarify what's going on here:

- bAir is getting ~10% more knockback growth from the damage increase
- uAir is getting ~10% more knockback growth as well, which is then scaled back by ~2% by the direct knockback growth reduction

 

[Methacrylate]

Damage is used as part of the knockback growth formula, so to clarify what's going on here:

- bAir is getting ~10% more knockback growth from the damage increase
- uAir is getting ~10% more knockback growth as well, which is then scaled back by ~2% by the direct knockback growth reduction

Yeah I do understand the clarification however I was under the assumption that extended launch distance meant a change to knockback values in the code. In these cases its a change to power that is causing the change to launch distance. Just seems weird to me that the patch notes would state Increased Power and then state Extended Launch Distance. To me it is just stating the same change twice lol

 

[shrooby]

They're inconsistent with regards to knockback. Probably a result of damage, BKB, and KBG all being involved in the knockback calculation. It's practically begging for misunderstandings, without even taking into account the fact that it goes through a Japanese->English translation.

I would imagine the original intention is to just make it clear that damage correlates with knockback since that isn't necessarily obvious to all players. (Though they don't always clarify that, so who knows...)
Usually (but not always), when a move's damage output is increased, KBG and/or BKB are scaled back a little bit, but there's still a net-gain in knockback from the formula. When they say "extended launch distance" the only really consistent thing I've noticed is that they mean "on average this move now sends people flying further than it did before." Which can mean many things. It does more damage, it has more BKB, more KBG, more BKB and less KBG, etc.

shrooby
Some additional notes that may be worth mention

Thank you for all your help, as always!

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Thank you for all your help, as always!

One more thing, this video confirms something not in the official patch notes. Piranha Plant's head is now intangible on frames 7-9 of U-air.

 

[Methacrylate]

Hey shrooby I would like some clarification on two parts of the notes for Corrin.

1) For Fsmash you have:

Increased shield stun of close and mid range hits: 8F -> 13F

How is this true? The patch notes specifically say its only the tipper hitbox and the data dump by Ruben does not show this increase either. From the dump:

ATK_SET_SHIELD_SETOFF_MUL_arg3(ID1=2, ID2=3, ShieldstunMul=1.6)

ID2 and ID3 are the tipper hitboxes alone. This accounts for the shield stun increase of the tipper as shown in your notes, but there is nothing to suggest the increase is applied to the close and mid range hits as well from what I have seen as ID0 and ID1 are not mentioned to have this shieldstunmultiplier. If this is true, I would like know how this was found for future reference.

2) For Back air you have:

Increased knockback of the first hit

Judging on our previous discussion, I feel that this comment needs to be removed because there was no knockback increase in the data dump.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

shrooby
Small changes, a bunch of characters received minor changes on D & Up-Throws:

Spoiler: Screen shots

According to SSB wiki, it prevents them from stage spiking certain characters like Ridley by the edges.


EDIT: Added many more throws!

 

[Wunderwaft]

Here's something that wasn't mentioned in the patch notes, Ridley's skewer has a grab penalty now and it doesn't do the zoom in after a grab. RIP the noob killer.

Skewer is now subject to the grab penalty meaning you can't use it right after grabs anymore, sad to see the noob killer destroyed...this was likely done to kill doubles infinites https://t.co/InzcHCD0zF

— Ridley Discord (@RidleyDiscord) June 30, 2020

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hey shrooby I would like some clarification on two parts of the notes for Corrin.

1) For Fsmash you have:

Increased shield stun of close and mid range hits: 8F -> 13F

How is this true? The patch notes specifically say its only the tipper hitbox and the data dump by Ruben does not show this increase either. From the dump:

I would like know how this was found for future reference.

I counted it out pre and post-patch. The 11.0 and 12.0 damage hitboxes were 8 before the patch, now they're 13. Nintendo's official patch notes suggested that every part of the move had increased shieldstun, which prompted me to check them all. Only the charging hitbox was registering the same shieldstun as before.

 

[shrooby]

Hey shrooby I would like some clarification on two parts of the notes for Corrin.

1) For Fsmash you have:

Increased shield stun of close and mid range hits: 8F -> 13F

How is this true? The patch notes specifically say its only the tipper hitbox and the data dump by Ruben does not show this increase either. From the dump:

ATK_SET_SHIELD_SETOFF_MUL_arg3(ID1=2, ID2=3, ShieldstunMul=1.6)

ID2 and ID3 are the tipper hitboxes alone. This accounts for the shield stun increase of the tipper as shown in your notes, but there is nothing to suggest the increase is applied to the close and mid range hits as well from what I have seen as ID0 and ID1 are not mentioned to have this shieldstunmultiplier. If this is true, I would like know how this was found for future reference.

2) For Back air you have:

Increased knockback of the first hit

Judging on our previous discussion, I feel that this comment needs to be removed because there was no knockback increase in the data dump.

The latter was just an error I my part, I meant to delete that haha

For the former, looking at the code myself, I do agree that it seems to imply that the method is only applied to the first tipper hitbox and the newly added tipper hitbox. However, given that Zapp counted the frames in-game himself, I'm inclined to trust his research. But I can run through the math as well to confirm.
If the multiplier was not being applied to ID0 and ID1, then they would do 8 frames of shieldstun

For this example, I'll just focus on ID0, the 12.0% hitbox

Shieldstun formula: d * 0.8 * m + 2 where d is damage and m is the attack's shieldstun multiplier. The result is also always floored, so it never rounds up.
The prepatch m = 0.725, which is the default for smash attacks.
If we go through this procedure with the 12.0% hitbox, then we should get 8 frames

Prepatch = 12 * 0.8 * 0.725 + 2 = 8.96 ~ 8 frames

For postpatch, m = 0.725 * 1.6
The 1.6 is an additional multiplier, it doesn't replace the default smash attack multiplier
So if the multiplier is being applied, we should get 13 frames.

Postpatch = 12 * 0.8 * 0.725 * 1.6 + 2 = 13.136 ~ 13 frames

Counting the shieldstun frames in-game myself, I also get 13, so the multiplier is indeed being applied to the non-tipper hitboxes.

shrooby
Small changes, a bunch of characters received minor changes on D & Up-Throws:

According to SSB wiki, it prevents them from stage spiking certain characters like Ridley by the edges.


EDIT: Added many more throws!

Can anyone confirm that this is indeed what this line does to these throws?

 

[Methacrylate]

Thank you for the clarification Zapp and shrooby, I appreciate the explanation. It is probably a vestige of how the multiplier is coded into the file I guess like its ignoring the hitbox identifiers in the line. Thanks again!